UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #6

[su5ie]

If you plot those places on a map, they take you to the A31. From there you continue onto the M27 and can turn either left to London, or right into Southampton. I reason that no local would take that route to get to Southampton. You would surely choose the A35 route via Burley and Lyndhurst. Not only is it five miles shorter, but more importantly, it goes through the New Forest. This is a much better route off which to ditch evidence, because you can pull off the road to hide it properly.

The A31, in contrast, is a no-stopping dual carriageway. It's the less logical route to Southampton, because you'd be going further to get there, but the more logical route to London for a driver who has a road atlas, no local knowledge, and no reason to go near Southampton. It's not conclusive, of course, but if you've just killed someone and you're from Southampton I'd think you'd want to get off the road ASAP; whereas if you're from London you'd want to get clear of Southampton, IMO.


Good point. With JC's known crimes, he seems to have threatened his victims with a weapon to subdue them, or sought to force his way into their car. He made one victim drive to a place where she could be raped; presumably he had the same in mind for JH, who bravely fought him off from her car. He raped his girlfriend and a shopkeeper in their own property. Whether this is unusual enough to amount to an MO, I don't know. Presumably all rapists rely on threat and require privacy to commit their crime. In SC's, SJL's and SB's cases, we don't know what happened. They were last seen, then never seen again.

One of his MOs seems to be overcoming a victim at their car .in the days of no cctv quite easy to stalk someone in a car park
Re cannon being linked to Sandra court I previously linked this article

Other than catching a suspect in the act .I fail to see how this was not enough evidence to bring a case against Cannan

I previously posted Cannan was known to use sex toys in rapes .He used a strap -on in the rape of his girlfriend and brought a vibrator in his "kit " to rape the victim in the shop maybe he used" tools ' ,.semen evidence in the sandra court murder may well have 'washed away or diluted in a water filled ditch also .

John Cannan has no incentive to confess to any murder or rape on his death bed or otherwise. He is an atheist and he will never gain freedom. The only enjoyment he has is the feeling he has power over the suzy lamplugh case .

The Slp reg plate created by Cannan, What are the odds of it not being a reference to suzy ? I'm not a betting person but if I was placing a bet I know which way I would choose . Shirley Banks car was fitted with this plate before he was charged with the crime. so imo can't really be considered a taunt to law enforcement. And the spray painted car was one of the defining elements of the Prosecution.

Cannan enjoys his games .He likes to see reminders of his crime in his everyday life based on above .
He also is not after body count notoriety like some criminals who confess soon after they have been convicted . He is dangerous because he is only interested in self satisfaction. Even after being convicted of his crimes and denying responsibility he claimed to know who murdered suzy ,sandra and Shirley and he stated it was the same person who killed Shirley.

I do not limit my beliefs into thinking Cannan should be the only suspect in the SJL case but I surmise he is rightly suspected as the perpetrator for her abduction and murder

 

[Terryb808]

Just to add to the last short series of posts, IIRC I read in CBD’s book “Prime Suspect” that Cannan frightened his various partners by strangling them during sex.
Obviously not killing them, Sandra Court was strangled (with minimal force) this fits with JC.
Additionally, and there’s obviously no concrete link, but Suzy said a new partner was scary and she was intending to end the relationship.
Okay, CBD doesn’t have an impeccable record for accuracy, but it’s a bit of a coincidence.

 

[WestLondoner]

I used to live in Southampton. It depends whereabouts you are going and how much of a hurry you're in. We don't know that the subject of the letter lived in the city itself, only that the letter was posted there. It may have been written by a third party.

True, but if this was someone who didn't live in Southampton I wonder where their car was heading.

 

[Cherwell]

True, but if this was someone who didn't live in Southampton I wonder where their car was heading.

There are various suburbs and outlying villages close to the M27. Swaythling, West End, Hedge End etc. Eastleigh is another possibility.

 

[WiseOwl]

Almost as if they thought single items would not raise suspicious.

Maybe they thought they would lay a false trail to throw the police off the scent? To make believe they were heading out of the area, to London? Or Southampton?

 

[WiseOwl]

IMO it seems opportunistic and sexually motivated. Who would have known Sandra would be there at that time?

John Douglas has written about how killers leave bodies. He would say that an accidental death would generally result in the body being left in a more dignified way.

JC lied until confronted with solid evidence. I'm not sure that he lied all the time.

The police have stated it wasn't a sexual assault, her body was fully clothed except for her shoes.

Sandra was stopping at her sister's house, it was her leaving party at her office then on to a nightclub. I would imagine that a few of her family, friends and work colleagues would know where she would end up that night.

 

[RichardKimble]

Just to add to the last short series of posts, IIRC I read in CBD’s book “Prime Suspect” that Cannan frightened his various partners by strangling them during sex.
Obviously not killing them, Sandra Court was strangled (with minimal force) this fits with JC.
Additionally, and there’s obviously no concrete link, but Suzy said a new partner was scary and she was intending to end the relationship.
Okay, CBD doesn’t have an impeccable record for accuracy, but it’s a bit of a coincidence.

But SC wasn't sexually assaulted, so what fits one way doesnt fit the other.

 

[su5ie]

Dbm

 

[Terryb808]

But SC wasn't sexually assaulted, so what fits one way doesnt fit the other.

I’ve wondered about this for a while, given (according to recent posts) JC carried a strap on & vibrator in his rapist kit.
Did he (like some other rapists) have an erectile disorder?
If his documented antics are correct, then it certainly points this way.

 

[su5ie]

I have to disagree and think Cannan is a very good suspect for Sandra Court.

IMO there is next to no chance that she was killed by a friend or acquaintance.

Accidental murder? If she had somehow been killed by mistake, the killer wouldn't have dumped her in water, or taken souvenirs etc.

JC lied about where he was that day. He only came clean when confronted with the parking ticket evidence.

Apologies for the long post

I have to agree I feel JC is a very good suspect for sandra courts murder . My theory for this is 2 hairs belonging to Sandra were found in the red Sierra . The odds on the same car being used by two killers is very slim and on this evidence alone .The laws of probability indicates jc is the culprit. We also have the parking ticket .But probability doesn't stand up in court .

On why Sandra may not have been sexually assaulted my reasoning is the minimum pressure applied which strangled her was meant to subdue her in to submission for a sexual assault but it ended up killing her with out the need to throttle her to death
.And JC was not into necrophilia. that we know of So he dumped her body and scattered her belongings in a panic /rage . JCs motive is always sexual but it's the power he derives pleasure from not the sexual act .And a dead body cannot plead with him .

Necrophilia is the ultimate defilement of a human being but is the rarer of sexual deviance crimes .And in general can be detected in a post mortem for obvious reasons .

Sandra was out celebrating during the day and into the night . JC was in Bournemouth. Did he see her and stalk her ? Did he try chat her up during this time and she rejected him ? . Prehaps her friends didn't see this encounter prehaps it was at the bar ,or on route to the taxi ,Did he see a woman getting a taxi alone ? .follow to see where she lived . we know JC had no problem assaulting women in their home or place of work . Was it suppose to be a rape ( up until then was it only rapes he was guilty of ) and he accidentally killed Sandra and liked it .

In general Sexual murderers don't start out as such there is a progression so sexual pestering, peeping tom ,sexual assault,( JC’S first charge was this at 14 ) rape ,then sexually motivated murder .

The letter claiming murder was an accident. (1):.fingerprints if any on this letter could only have come from the sender . JC'S are on file . It is probably a safe bet they didnt match his (2) plenty of hoax letters are sent every year to the met and other law enforcement agencies (3) A reward of £10,000 was offered to solve SC murder a likely incentive to fingerpoint suspicion at someone within Sandra's circle if there was any friction there (4) culprits who send letters to law enforcement generally don't post them from their own locality . I feel this letter is a false lead .

 

[Konstantin]

I have to disagree and think Cannan is a very good suspect for Sandra Court.

IMO there is next to no chance that she was killed by a friend or acquaintance.

Accidental murder? If she had somehow been killed by mistake, the killer wouldn't have dumped her in water, or taken souvenirs etc.

JC lied about where he was that day. He only came clean when confronted with the parking ticket evidence.

Yes, it is more likely I think that this was an opportunistic attack where the killer came across SC as she was either waiting outside her sister's home or, since there were sightings of her near her parents' home, maybe she had tried to go there when she found her sister wasn't at home (I don't know the precise locations of either but Google maps says that Muscliff (area where sister lived) is 17 minutes walk from Moordown (parents' area). Perhaps the killer was cruising around for victims and saw SC alone, it was very late. Maybe he offered SC a lift.

The letter sounds like the sort of pathetic excuse that JC might make--he didn't mean to kill her, he's soooo upset now--and didn't he once before talk about the killer of one of his victims (SB) as if that was a different person, a "Bristol businessman"? Perhaps to distance himself psychologically from the killing and try to suggest it wasn't him? but this is complete conjecture and who knows if JC is responsible for SC's murder. Perhaps the killer intended to rape or assault SC but went too far with strangling her before he could do so. Again, pure conjecture.

 

[Cherwell]

I have to agree I feel JC is a very good suspect for sandra courts murder . My theory for this is 2 hairs belonging to Sandra were found in the red Sierra .

Is there a reliable source for this? My recollection is that hairs were found that could have come from Sandra Court, but could also have come from a large percentage of the population. A rootless hair only provides low-template and degraded DNA so identification is limited. Especially back in the 80s.

The letter claiming murder was an accident. (1):.fingerprints if any on this letter could only have come from the sender . JC'S are on file . It is probably a safe bet they didnt match his (2) plenty of hoax letters are sent every year to the met and other law enforcement agencies (3) A reward of £10,000 was offered to solve SC murder a likely incentive to fingerpoint suspicion at someone within Sandra's circle if there was any friction there (4) culprits who send letters to law enforcement generally don't post them from their own locality . I feel this letter is a false lead .

1. Clearly JC's fingerprints were not on the letter, ergo he didn't send it.
2. Probably, but this doesn't mean they're all fake. It's hard to see the purpose of this particular letter if a hoax.
3. There may not have been any, or at least nothing that anyone else was privy to.
4. I think the letter was not written by the culprit, but by someone close to them - mother? sister? brother?
If s/he lived in Bournemouth, s/he might think that Southampton was far enough and large enough to confuse the issue.

 

[su5ie]

Is there a reliable source for this? My recollection is that hairs were found that could have come from Sandra Court, but could also have come from a large percentage of the population. A rootless hair only provides low-template and degraded DNA so identification is limited. Especially back in the

The article I read this in doesn't clarify whether or not it was a partial match it also doesn't specify if it was rootless I will attach link for you to look at . If you have a link which does incorporate these details I would appreciate if you could give me the link please . You are right to question the condition of the Dna sample and not take for granted a media article.

'Realistic prospect' kIller John Cannan could go free within weeks

 

[lee sumner]

I can't see much similarity apart from both bodies being found in watercourses. Shirley died from blows to the head and Sandra was strangled "with minimum force".
Personally I've always thought the letter about Sandra's death sounded quite convincing.

Summaries from Wikipedia:

Shirley Banks, who was a newly married 29-year-old textiles factory manager from Clifton,was abducted on the evening of 8 October 1987 some time after 7:40 pm while out on a shopping trip to the Broadmead centre. Her husband searched for her in bars when she failed to return home, as they had agreed to meet for a drink; when he rang her work the next morning, he was told she had just phoned in sick with an upset stomach 15 minutes earlier. When she again failed to return home, he called the police. Police believe that Banks was held overnight in Cannan's flat and that he then persuaded her to phone in sick to her work, after pretending he was going to release her.

Sandra Court had been dropped off by a taxi driver in Throop*, Dorset near her sister's house after a night out, but her sister was not at home. She was last seen walking barefoot, appearing slightly drunk, at around 2:45 a.m. Court's body was found the next day in a water-filled ditch several miles away.

[I don't know where they got Throop from. It's nowhere near the Avon Causeway where her body was found. The report in the Southern Evening Echo says "Sandra took a taxi from the club and was dropped off at her sisters home in Downton Close on the Muscliff Estate in Bournemouth at about 2.45am." This is much more specific.]

i think sandra got bored waiting for her sister. if only she had waited at downton close for her sister to return

Yes, it is more likely I think that this was an opportunistic attack where the killer came across SC as she was either waiting outside her sister's home or, since there were sightings of her near her parents' home, maybe she had tried to go there when she found her sister wasn't at home (I don't know the precise locations of either but Google maps says that Muscliff (area where sister lived) is 17 minutes walk from Moordown (parents' area). Perhaps the killer was cruising around for victims and saw SC alone, it was very late. Maybe he offered SC a lift.

The letter sounds like the sort of pathetic excuse that JC might make--he didn't mean to kill her, he's soooo upset now--and didn't he once before talk about the killer of one of his victims (SB) as if that was a different person, a "Bristol businessman"? Perhaps to distance himself psychologically from the killing and try to suggest it wasn't him? but this is complete conjecture and who knows if JC is responsible for SC's murder. Perhaps the killer intended to rape or assault SC but went too far with strangling her before he could do so. Again, pure conjecture.

i think sandra court got bored waiting for her sister. so she set off home, and was picked up some where by some one in a car. if only sandra would have waited at her sisters on downton close. she would have started her job in spain, and started a new life for herself.

 

[lee sumner]

One of his MOs seems to be overcoming a victim at their car .in the days of no cctv quite easy to stalk someone in a car park
Re cannon being linked to Sandra court I previously linked this article View attachment 523236

Other than catching a suspect in the act .I fail to see how this was not enough evidence to bring a case against Cannan

I previously posted Cannan was known to use sex toys in rapes .He used a strap -on in the rape of his girlfriend and brought a vibrator in his "kit " to rape the victim in the shop maybe he used" tools ' ,.semen evidence in the sandra court murder may well have 'washed away or diluted in a water filled ditch also .

John Cannan has no incentive to confess to any murder or rape on his death bed or otherwise. He is an atheist and he will never gain freedom. The only enjoyment he has is the feeling he has power over the suzy lamplugh case .

The Slp reg plate created by Cannan, What are the odds of it not being a reference to suzy ? I'm not a betting person but if I was placing a bet I know which way I would choose . Shirley Banks car was fitted with this plate before he was charged with the crime. so imo can't really be considered a taunt to law enforcement. And the spray painted car was one of the defining elements of the Prosecution.

Cannan enjoys his games .He likes to see reminders of his crime in his everyday life based on above .
He also is not after body count notoriety like some criminals who confess soon after they have been convicted . He is dangerous because he is only interested in self satisfaction. Even after being convicted of his crimes and denying responsibility he claimed to know who murdered suzy ,sandra and Shirley and he stated it was the same person who killed Shirley.

I do not limit my beliefs into thinking Cannan should be the only suspect in the SJL case but I surmise he is rightly suspected as the perpetrator for her abduction and murder

suzy is the type of woman JC would go for. he goes for attractive middle class women, but did he snatch suzy that day. there is no evidence that he did.

 

[su5ie]

The

suzy is the type of woman JC would go for. he goes for attractive middle class women, but did he snatch suzy that day. there is no evidence that he did.

You are 100 % correct There is no hard evidence to connect JC to suzy only speculation and hypothesis. On actual factual beyond reasonable doubt evidence there is not one iota of evidence to corroborate the statements from Sturgis staff that suzy left the office at 12.40 alive

.we could argue the fact that her friend seen her with a male companion in her car at 2.45 and her friend stated suzy was driving and not erratically so ,if true ,where was suzy from 12.40 until this time ,A woman whom normally would be a very good time keeper and sneaking away from work was out of character . I could list at least 10 other cases where friends were wrong .

So if we are going to suspect JC as the culprit, should we not suspect others whom did have a known connection to suzy and prehaps harboured ill feelings towards her or in an act of manslaughter or a crime of passion
AL was eliminated because of 11 statements .How many were taken to corroborate individual Sturgis staff's 'truths ' ?Considering JC was not an early suspect who did the police have in mind after her boyfriend or was everybody else so hastily overlooked and apparently so flippantly eliminated that they had none and JC just happened to conveniently be placed / fall into their laps .

And as her family including Mr and Mrs lamplugh and siblings have stated they are happy her murderer (jc) is locked up and law enforcements hunch is that jc is guilty. Where is the incentive to take a fresh look at the individuals known to suzy and re start an investigation from last factual proof of life.

 

[Cherwell]

The article I read this in doesn't clarify whether or not it was a partial match it also doesn't specify if it was rootless I will attach link for you to look at . If you have a link which does incorporate these details I would appreciate if you could give me the link please . You are right to question the condition of the Dna sample and not take for granted a media article.

'Realistic prospect' kIller John Cannan could go free within weeks

I wouldn't attach any importance to articles like this. It's mainly reporting his parole application and is less than a year old. It's probably been cobbled together from Google searches. Notice how he includes the 1970s Midlands rapes which have never been proved to have any connection to JC.

 

[tes1984]

I really think this thread is in danger of going round in circles.
.
It's great that so many people are looking at this case, but there's too much repetition/explanation going on.

This case needs a dedicated forum.

You can't organise research, or keep track of anything in a single thread, which runs hundreds of pages deep.

I've been involved in the births of a couple of forums involving unsolved cases, and I think the Lamplugh case needs it too.

Please PM me if you're interested in being involved with such a project.

 

[Cherwell]

Yes. There are too many things quoted as facts which have come from unreliable reports, rumours, speculation etc.

I would like to know if there was ever a reliable source as to the hairs allegedly found in the red Sierra (?) which JC allegedly had the use of at some point. Does anyone remember where this was originally reported?

I've seen claims that the hairs belonged to both Suzy Lamplugh and Sandra Court. I am still confident that these hairs, if they existed, were not forensically attributable to either of the women, only that they could not be ruled out.

 

[tes1984]

There are claims about DNA from a partial fingerprint from Suzy's work car. Plus also claims about DNA from Cannan's alleged vehicle from 1986.

Both were Ford Fiestas IIRC, but the one Cannan supposedly had access to wasn't analysed for at least a decade, and just because DNA can't be ruled out, it doesn't mean it's been matched in any meaningful way.

If there is DNA from Suzy or Sandra, then it can't really be from post 1986/7, so where the vehicle has been becomes less important. Actually linking the car to Cannan would be the bigger issue.

The car Suzy was driving could be even more interesting if DNA is ever matched, but it's a big if....