UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #6

[lee sumner]

If car was ditched in the evening or night time
,we have to disregard the multiple witnesses who saw Suzy's car during the day .WJ may have indicated a specific timeline but other witness observed it throughout the day .

If we hypothesised that it was parked the night before we therefore have to conclude she was killed in Sturgis or never showed up to work at all. This would involve a lot of colluding by a hell of a lot of people including her flatmate .

A lot of women and I'm not being sexist we see it everyday in carparks common mistakes leaving handbrake off , problems parallel parking etc so the way Suzy’s car was parked is not an unusual thing for me tbh

why would WJ even notice the car on the other side of the road. how many times in the past were there white cars parked up. i dont believe she noticed the car was overlapping the garage by 13 inches. not from across the road in her kitchen.

 

[rsteen]

One possibility for which there's zero evidence but that the circumstances allow for is the "Afternoon Delight": Mr Kipper is one of SJL's current or ex-squeezes, who rings her up at work and demands an insta-sh*g. She writes down 37SR in the diary but goes somewhere else. I'm sure I recall a story in the Sun in the 80s about "randy house sales girls" doing this sort of thing...

If she planned to do that she would have taken her handbag (comb/mirror/makeup to fix up her appearance before returning to the office).

A lot of women and I'm not being sexist we see it everyday in carparks common mistakes leaving handbrake off , problems parallel parking etc so the way Suzy’s car was parked is not an unusual thing for me tbh

But to leave the door unlocked though?

 

[su5ie]

why would WJ even notice the car on the other side of the road. how many times in the past were there white cars parked up. i dont believe she noticed the car was overlapping the garage by 13 inches. not from across the road in her kitchen.

Because when she walked her dog it wasn't there and when she returned from walking her dog it wasn't there when she looked out her window it was and when she met her friend for shopping both seen it there

Granted it may have been another white car but seems very coincidental and also a taxi driver observed it on his way to work between 1pm and 2pm

 

[su5ie]

If she planned to do that she would have taken her handbag (comb/mirror/makeup to fix up her appearance before returning to the office).

But to leave the door unlocked though?

If she only planned on stepping out of her car for a few moments to give directions to Shorrolds or to discuss the particulars of the house with a known person she was hoping to buy the house with or do business with

 

[lee sumner]

That's not possible though. It was found at 10pm having been there all day since no earlier than about 12.40.

i dont believe it was there all day. WJ has to be mistaken. if the car was left there shortly after 1240pm, then why would it appear to have been parked up in a hurry.

 

[su5ie]

Through my observations the witnesses to suzys car on Stevenage road at sometime between 1245 and 2.pm are correct . Times may be off slightly but it was seen that lunchtime .
If we disregard all witnesses here ,we may well disregard every other statement from witnesses that day including office staff . Wendy would not have known when she gave her statement what time suzy left the office . The car was not discovered by LE until 10.01pm so hypothetically Wendy , taxi man and WJ friend could have referenced any time up until 10pm

 

[lee sumner]

If she only planned on stepping out of her car for a few moments to give directions to Shorrolds or to discuss the particulars of the house with a known person she was hoping to buy the house with or do business with

she was seen on shorrolds rd, but her car was at another location. she cant be in 2 places at the same time. so someone is mistaken, and i think WJ is mistaken.

Because when she walked her dog it wasn't there and when she returned from walking her dog it wasn't there when she looked out her window it was and when she met her friend for shopping both seen it there

Granted it may have been another white car but seems very coincidental and also a taxi driver observed it on his way to work between 1pm and 2pm

 

[Konstantin]

Good point, it doesn't sound like a furtive rendezvous. I've long wondered how all the various car movements around 37SR were handled if the abduction began there. Somehow SJL and Mr Kipper both went there, he in his canonical BMW, so what happened next? They drove in her car - OK so when does he retrieve his? They drove off in his car - OK so how does hers get to 123SR? In neither case is an abductor going back to 37SR to collect a car, given that by this time it's possible she's been missed.

None of it makes much sense, does it. And the witness in Stevenage Road insists that she saw SJL's car parked there from the lunchtime. She was questioned soon after the event, other elements of her story checked out regarding timings, and she noticed the car because it was parked overlapping a garage. She may have been mistaken of course but if not it suggests that SJL's car wasn't driven there much later that day.

So did Mr Kipper follow SJL there in his fancy BMW from 37SR? Was there ever really a BMW? Or there was one but it was not linked to the case. There are BMWs all over London and were then...

The AS book says that when SJL's colleague (MG?) finally reported her missing to the police, the neighbour at Shorrolds Road was saying that the woman he saw with "Mr Kipper" outside 37SR was "bundled into a car" although this was "later" reported to be "an exaggeration". This is all super vague but does it mean that the neighbour saw the couple get into a car?

 

[su5ie]

i dont believe it was there all day. WJ has to be mistaken. if the car was left there shortly after 1240pm, then why would it appear to have been parked up in a hurry.

Apart from the unlocked door I cannot see the car as being parked in a hurry tbh . Before I first looked at pictures of the car I was expecting it to be all over the place the bonnet of the car to be more angled toward the road or back of car up on path and front off it etc and the words used by the investigation team state SEEMED TO BE not that it was and they based this on door unlocked and that it was slightly out from the path but as I've pointed out we see this everyday in our carparks and streets . Parking in full alignment is not something a lot of people pay particular attention to particularly women unless they are sitting a drivers test imo

 

[Konstantin]

so someone is mistaken, and i think WJ is mistaken.

I think she is the most likely of the witnesses to be mistaken even though she knew SJL personally. If you are riding a bike and a car passes you heading toward you at a regular road speed it is hard to see in that very short time who is inside it at least with any certainty. There were loads of white Fiestas like SJL's.

Eyewitness testimony is also notoriously bad. This is an old article now but it is still true (there are loads of scientific papers on the weaknesses of eyewitness testimony)

Why Science Tells Us Not to Rely on Eyewitness Accounts

Eyewitness testimony is fickle and, all too often, shockingly inaccurate

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[su5ie]

None of it makes much sense, does it. And the witness in Stevenage Road insists that she saw SJL's car parked there from the lunchtime. She was questioned soon after the event, other elements of her story checked out regarding timings, and she noticed the car because it was parked overlapping a garage. She may have been mistaken of course but if not it suggests that SJL's car wasn't driven there much later that day.

So did Mr Kipper follow SJL there in his fancy BMW from 37SR? Was there ever really a BMW? Or there was one but it was not linked to the case. There are BMWs all over London and were then...

The AS book says that when SJL's colleague (MG?) finally reported her missing to the police, the neighbour at Shorrolds Road was saying that the woman he saw with "Mr Kipper" outside 37SR was "bundled into a car" although this was "later" reported to be "an exaggeration". This is all super vague but does it mean that the neighbour saw the couple get into a car?

This is also a good possibility that BMW fancy man followed suzy in her car to Stevenage and witnesses to suzys car were off with their timings . In July the nights are still bright till 10pm . For example 7pm could be mistaken for 5pm if we are unfamiliar with the movement of the sun .

HR is the most unreliable witness in this case in my opinion as he embellished his story very quickly in a matter of hours ,which is also why I don't add much weight to the intitial photofit from his description

 

[WiseOwl]

why would WJ even notice the car on the other side of the road. how many times in the past were there white cars parked up. i dont believe she noticed the car was overlapping the garage by 13 inches. not from across the road in her kitchen.

AS's book explains this perfectly clearly on page 26:

WJ called for a neighbour, AM. She noticed as she did so that a white Ford Fiesta was parked by AM's garage, slightly overlapping the entrance, and she wondered whether AM's husband LM would have difficulty getting his car into the garage that evening.

The two women drove to the NatWest bank at Fulham Cross, where AM noted the time by the bank's clock as 12.49. When WJ returned from shopping a couple of hours later, she noticed the car still parked overlapping the driveway to the garage.

So WJ was friends with the owner of the garage where the car was overlapping the driveway - this is why she noticed it. Also, AM's husband LM was the driver who confirmed the car was overlapping the driveway to the garage when he returned home from work that day at 5.15pm.

The police also confirmed that the bank's clock was accurate when they checked it after receiving AM's statement.

 

[Officer Dibble]

While I agree with the assessment of the need to buy more time and possibility of Cannan learning from his mistake I still don't see the relevant need of his to park suzys car at Stevenage at a Sturgis sign surely looking at other Sturgis properties in the area was a starting point of any good police investigation in their search for suzy and hardly buys the time a perp would be hoping for and what if a colleague of suzy's was doing a viewing of 123StR at the time you are pulling up in her car . Which brings me to a conclusion that suzy parked her own car there as she knew there wasn't a viewing at the property that day .

Another observation of mine is if the sighting of suzy in her car with a male by BW if this is correct and the sighting was afforded as the most factual given that BW knew suzy

.Why was passenger side seat not pulled back to allow for a taller passenger as BW observed a male in this seat and why was passenger door locked but not drivers side . why no fingerprints on handles from opening and closing a door

Why would a perp take the keys and house details of Shorrolds obvious reason would be if he was holding them in the passenger seat but suzy had to then willingly allow him into her car ,be willing to drive around from place to place and upon getting out at Stevenage had to lean over and lock the passenger side but not lock her own door ? and where did they go from Stevenage ?

Suzy was hardly dragged up the road while her or perp holding on to car keys, house keys ,house details etc all the while eluding anyone seeing them and perp possibly holding a weapon ,.Perp risking suzy screaming for help or creating a scene, even if she froze he would had to have coerced her up the street or into another car He would have risked been seen doing this on a busy enough street ,kids off school playing ,workmen ,taxi drivers and most importantly, housewives looking out of residential windows .

A witness says she seen a man in a smart suit and holding a briefcase walking along Stevenage Road. Could suzy have gone for a walk along the Thames with a known associate to discuss a business deal in the lunchtime sunshine and been pushed in and perp walked away up Stevenage Road and into his own car parked somewhere along his route .

To account for sightings of BMW and sighting of saloon type car with 2 men sitting in it . Suzys alleged abduction I'm sure wasn't the only criminal activity that day and other suspect activity that normally people would see in passing and ignore it was then put into the context of oh it must have something to do with suzy because it was suspicious to me

Was her car fingerprinted? Surely it was?

 

[Officer Dibble]

If she planned to do that she would have taken her handbag (comb/mirror/makeup to fix up her appearance before returning to the office).

But to leave the door unlocked though?

some dyslexics are also dyspraxic and clumsy or easily distracted by their thoughts. So the locking the door could be that simple. The seat pushed back could be clumsy dropping something and needing to push seat back to retrieve the item.

 

[su5ie]

Was her car fingerprinted? Surely it was?

Fingerprinting of the hard surfaces in car was done and also taping on the soft 'furnishings " was done for fibres and hair . This is done by placing "sellotape " along the chairs and floors car boot with no gaps to capture all fibres in the car to ensure even fibres invisible to the naked eye are not missed . I sincerely hope the outside handles and door lock buttons and steering wheel, gear stick etc were checked for Fingerprints too

 

[su5ie]

Can dyslexia affect ones ability to parallel park ?I understand it can affect direction and reading road signs .
We also are not told if suzy was normally perfect at parking or that she would generally lock the car door when going into a viewing or returning to the office, I suppose JC might have provided an answer to this to police at the time . We are told the car seemed unusually parked but to whom ,the police whom in general would find fault in peoples parking by default

. Wendy has stated she noticed it over lapping the garage by a small bit but in general would suzy have been a cautious not to overlap a property or parking line in a carpark if suzy had no flaws in her usual parking ability then it is suspicious but if she generally had flaws it's not

 

[ruby925]

Reading all your discussions and points, I feel Suzy put the fake name Kipper and wrong address, Shorrolds, in her diary that would provide her with a cover story as a casual check. She then drove to Stevenage to meet someone known to her, but the iffy parking, unlocked door and her purse left inside the car suggest she did not intend to stay there ( I don't believe someone would deliberately leave their purse in an unlocked car even in 1986 London). Either she was snatched there or she was lured into another car on some pretence imo.
All JMO obvs, bit I think the whole Shorrolds scenario was a red herring.

 

[WestLondoner]

The two women drove to the NatWest bank at Fulham Cross, where AM noted the time by the bank's clock as 12.49.

The police also confirmed that the bank's clock was accurate when they checked it after receiving AM's statement.

The transaction record of whatever WJ and AM were doing at the bank captured the time. Whether paying in or taking out, a time-stamped chit would have been offered to the customer (as it still would be today) and the time had to be saved somewhere for this to be possible. This transaction time was established IIRC and it also supported the time WJ remembered. So it seems pretty clear that unless WJ completely misremembered when she first saw the car, it was indeed there by 12.40.

The only way this works is if SJL left the office sooner than everyone supposed, drove to 123SR and changed cars - all of it unseen by WJ and before 12.40.

The fact that she was half-sitting half-standing as she got off the 'phone to leave and the hasty parking of the car outside do sort of mutually support one another in suggesting she was in a hurry to get there.

If she planned to do that she would have taken her handbag (comb/mirror/makeup to fix up her appearance before returning to the office).

Yes, that's an excellent point.

But to leave the door unlocked though?

I'm guessing SJL did lock it - because it had her purse in the door pocket - but someone else returned to the car later and left it unlocked.

 

[Terryb808]

Reading all your discussions and points, I feel Suzy put the fake name Kipper and wrong address, Shorrolds, in her diary that would provide her with a cover story as a casual check. She then drove to Stevenage to meet someone known to her, but the iffy parking, unlocked door and her purse left inside the car suggest she did not intend to stay there ( I don't believe someone would deliberately leave their purse in an unlocked car even in 1986 London). Either she was snatched there or she was lured into another car on some pretence imo.
All JMO obvs, bit I think the whole Shorrolds scenario was a red herring.

I think you have the narrative spot on, given the discussions of late it’s ironed out a lot of wrinkles in other narratives and provided one that makes perfect sence.
It’s convinced me that WJ & AM were right about Suzy’s car being in Stevenage Road early that day. Also the Met Detective MB was right in his conclusion that she was taken from there.
His observations are in AS’s book, but his superiors didn’t listen and ploughed on with the not existent Mr Kipper.

 

[Terryb808]

The transaction record of whatever WJ and AM were doing at the bank captured the time. Whether paying in or taking out, a time-stamped chit would have been offered to the customer (as it still would be today) and the time had to be saved somewhere for this to be possible. This transaction time was established IIRC and it also supported the time WJ remembered. So it seems pretty clear that unless WJ completely misremembered when she first saw the car, it was indeed there by 12.40.

The only way this works is if SJL left the office sooner than everyone supposed, drove to 123SR and changed cars - all of it unseen by WJ and before 12.40.

The fact that she was half-sitting half-standing as she got off the 'phone to leave and the hasty parking of the car outside do sort of mutually support one another in suggesting she was in a hurry to get there.

Yes, that's an excellent point.

I'm guessing SJL did lock it - because it had her purse in the door pocket - but someone else returned to the car later and left it unlocked.

Yes she’ll lock it if she got into the perpetrators car willingly to leave with him, No if she just got in for a 5 minute chat and was abducted.