UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #6

[su5ie]

IMBW, but wasn't it a red Sierra that was associated with him, and the hair found in it had a partial DNA match to Sandra Court, not Suzy. The DNA was insignificant as it would have been consistent with a large percentage of the population.

If there was also a red Fiesta, I have missed that.

It is actually claimed Cherwell that both suzy and Cannan's dna were found in the red Sierra but it could not be proved that both were in the car at the same time ...this is the same car that a dna sample of sandra courts was found too but in her case it was that it was incomplete .

Does this mean that a complete sample for suzy was found and a complete sample for Cannan was found but was deemed circumstantial because it couldn't be proved both were in the car together.

Surely if this was the case it is more than circumstantial and more than a coincidence in light of what happened suzy .obviously I don't understand how courtroom law fully works but isn't all evidence like this circumstantial unless culprit is caught red handed ??

 

[RichardKimble]

Let's take a look at all the information in the public domain that possibly points cannan being the culprit so on the law of probability we can see if all arrows point in his direction

Staying in a prison halfway house nearby which may have had a curfew minimum 8pm to 6am or maximum 11pm to 8am . A lot of these hostels had activities up until 5pm with the aim of integrating offenders back into the community

Liked professional woman doesn't mean all his love interests were though

Possible match of suzy's Dna in red fiesta or red Sierra located during 2000 review as far as I'm aware

Known as kipper depending on version of story nickname either post or pre dates him being named a suspect

Possible evidence in 1987 to pinpoint him as a suspect but never acted on

Imo very vague resemblance to the first photofit given by HR . Cannan has thick eyebrows that can't be mistaken and this would stand out .both photofits have thinner ones sketched

Suzy was allegedly dating a Bristol businessman . How long ago and was Cannan in prison or the hostel

May or May not have been seen throwing a suitcase into the canal evidence given by lorry driver but its also stated he walked by Cannan AFAIK

Cannan was allegedly active in his pursuit of female agents as a Mr Kipper was canvassing other estate agents in the area

A woman swears she saw cannan looking in sturgis window

Cannan is taller than suzy by between 2 and 3 inches according to reports he may be responsible for moving the seat of the car back

His ex girlfriend claims he was obsessed with the case and pointed to Norton barracks as to where Cannan said Suzy’s body is but she could be wrong and said it could have been the other barracks

Cannan is suspected of having access to a dark coloured bmw . He is some man for one man if he managed to drive 3 cars and control / murder suzy all in the space of a couple of hours so white fiesta moved to Stevenage. And possibly drove around town to Shorrolds, Palace Road(bw sighting ) and wherever else BMW sighted at similar times and transport suzy in a red fiesta which is how her dna possibly got there ??

The SB car reg plate SLP

He was a rapist at the time and possibly had murdered in hindsight (SC )before suzy

May have been a patron of wine bar and POW

Cellmate/ fellow prisoner said he buried suzy under his mother's patio ,garden or car repair pit he had there

Scotland yard and the met publicly named him as a suspect therefore they might have evidence not known to us ?? Cps thought it circumstantial so hardly incriminating

Am I leaving anything out

We know the body in the service pit was false because it was dug up in 2018, all the points you make are neutralized because JC and SLP cannot be placed together, were any other possible suspects eliminated to that point?

 

[su5ie]

We know the body in the service pit was false because it was dug up in 2018, all the points you make are neutralized because JC and SLP cannot be placed together, were any other possible suspects eliminated to that point?

Sorry my stab at sarcastic black humour was taken as serious

From my previous postings on the thread its well highlighted I suspect it was someone other than Cannan. And just like you observed the points in the post have been neutralised.
My post was in response to a poster saying what evidence is there to point to Cannan ? and does anyone believe he did it . It was a meant to be a mild sarcastic post to convey that well if that's all the evidence they have .LE are barking up the wrong tree imo .

AFAIK ,all other suspects were eliminated by there truths being taken as fact and no indiscrepancies in their Statements were independently verified except for AL who had 11 independent statements to clear his name . And possibly MG by police discreetly questioning the business associates he was at lunch with ,( in AS book ) Even the Belgian diamond dealer refused to say why he didn't report his bmw stolen or why it was in London and this was OK???

 

[Cherwell]

It is actually claimed Cherwell that both suzy and Cannan's dna were found in the red Sierra but it could not be proved that both were in the car at the same time ...this is the same car that a dna sample of sandra courts was found too but in her case it was that it was incomplete .

What is the source for Suzy's DNA being found in the Sierra?

 

[WiseOwl]

What is the source for Suzy's DNA being found in the Sierra?

This subject has been discussed before on the thread, and the info was from Christopher Berry-Dee.

Criminologist speaks out on details linking Sutton Coldfield sex monster to murder of Suzy Lamplugh

A CRIMINOLOGIST who exchanged hundreds of letters with Suzy Lamplugh murder suspect John Cannan has revealed sensational new details linking him to the case.

www.birminghammail.co.uk

 

[Cherwell]

This subject has been discussed before on the thread, and the info was from Christopher Berry-Dee.

So no reliable source then.
Look - not only does he believe the car numberplate nonsense, but he's conflated it with the Sierra.

“They found the car when the case was re-opened in 2000, and I understand they did find trace evidence of both Cannan and Suzy Lamplugh.
“That proves they had both been in the car at some point in their lives.
“He also had his own number plate put on with the registration SLP 386. The SLP could represent Suzy Lamplugh’s initials, the number three could represent his third victim and the last two numbers may indicate 1986.

 

[Terryb808]

So no reliable source then.
Look - not only does he believe the car numberplate nonsense, but he's conflated it with the Sierra.

You’re on the button, if LE had any such evidence they’d have made it very clear.
As it is, it’s obviously none conclusive and would be shot down in a court case.

 

[su5ie]

England's unclaimed dead and the people trying to give them a name

The story of the unclaimed dead and the people trying to uncover their identities.

www.bbc.co.uk

I found this article on the unidentified bodies thread . It's interesting up until the article date 2016 that dna was not taken from many of the bodies found and some of the unfortunate people are buried in shared graves and also lie in single graves and morgues across Britain.

I often wondered was suzy among these and considering police couldn't get a blood group for her or none on a medical file could be found Samples were taken from DL and PL to get a DNA profile . We all have a uniqueness to our DNA and I had pondered would it provide a good enough match if a unidentified body was found in decomposed state. A lot of Caucasians would carry similar markers on their DNA which is why a lot of profiles gathered by LE are inadmissible in court

I have a little knowledge on DNA profiling and genetics . Having been to a geneticist for inherited disorders .And this would have been pointed out to me that although we carry some of our parents profile in our DNA we also have a uniqueness that allows the specialist to tell whether the sample is from the parent or the child ,the aunt ,the uncle etc

 

[lee sumner]

This is one of the weirder things. The police claim is that this was Cannan's nickname in jail. The source of this appears to be GP who herself attributed it to....JC. It is far from clear that Cannan's prison nickname was Kipper before he was mentioned in connection with SJL by the press. Thereafter, it's plausible that the other cons called him this as a form of black humour. It's not obvious why else this would previously have been his nickname. If it were, it would be dumb even by Cannan standards to use it as a fake name. As I have said before, it's as though Machine Gun Kelly or Pretty Boy Floyd were to book appointments as Mr Machine Gun or Mr Pretty Boy.

DV's suggestion that she thought it up in a nanosecond because her mate John "Herring" Kipper lived in Shorrolds actually makes more sense.

Let's take a look at all the information in the public domain that possibly points cannan being the culprit so on the law of probability we can see if all arrows point in his direction

Staying in a prison halfway house nearby which may have had a curfew minimum 8pm to 6am or maximum 11pm to 8am . A lot of these hostels had activities up until 5pm with the aim of integrating offenders back into the community

Liked professional woman doesn't mean all his love interests were though

Possible match of suzy's Dna in red fiesta or red Sierra located during 2000 review as far as I'm aware

Known as kipper depending on version of story nickname either post or pre dates him being named a suspect

Possible evidence in 1987 to pinpoint him as a suspect but never acted on

Imo very vague resemblance to the first photofit given by HR . Cannan has thick eyebrows that can't be mistaken and this would stand out .both photofits have thinner ones sketched

Suzy was allegedly dating a Bristol businessman . How long ago and was Cannan in prison or the hostel

May or May not have been seen throwing a suitcase into the canal evidence given by lorry driver but its also stated he walked by Cannan AFAIK

Cannan was allegedly active in his pursuit of female agents as a Mr Kipper was canvassing other estate agents in the area

A woman swears she saw cannan looking in sturgis window

Cannan is taller than suzy by between 2 and 3 inches according to reports he may be responsible for moving the seat of the car back

His ex girlfriend claims he was obsessed with the case and pointed to Norton barracks as to where Cannan said Suzy’s body is but she could be wrong and said it could have been the other barracks

Cannan is suspected of having access to a dark coloured bmw . He is some man for one man if he managed to drive 3 cars and control / murder suzy all in the space of a couple of hours so white fiesta moved to Stevenage. And possibly drove around town to Shorrolds, Palace Road(bw sighting ) and wherever else BMW sighted at similar times and transport suzy in a red fiesta which is how her dna possibly got there ??

The SB car reg plate SLP

He was a rapist at the time and possibly had murdered in hindsight (SC )before suzy

May have been a patron of wine bar and POW

Cellmate/ fellow prisoner said he buried suzy under his mother's patio ,garden or car repair pit he had there

Scotland yard and the met publicly named him as a suspect therefore they might have evidence not known to us ?? Cps thought it circumstantial so hardly incriminating

Am I leaving anything out

according to detective jim dickie who was SIO in 2000. JC was breaking the hostel curfew all the time and would go missing for days at a time, and it was during this time he started stalking SL. we will never know how many times he left the hostel, but maybe it was not all the time like DS dickie thinks. he also believes JC was staying somewhere in london after he was released from the scrubs on the 25th july, but does not have a clue where. its all just speculation. no wonder the CPS didnt bring charges.

 

[su5ie]

according to detective jim dickie who was SIO in 2000. JC was breaking the hostel curfew all the time and would go missing for days at a time, and it was during this time he started stalking SL. we will never know how many times he left the hostel, but maybe it was not all the time like DS dickie thinks. he also believes JC was staying somewhere in london after he was released from the scrubs on the 25th july, but does not have a clue where. its all just speculation. no wonder the CPS didnt bring charges.

When jc was released from Scrubs he was staying in the prison hostel .prehaps Jim thought he stayed in London during the 3 days after being released from the hostel ,on being questioned cannan mentioned he went straight to his mother's in one account and in another claims he arrived at his mother's on the 28th .
He is a liar by nature but I don't believe with what is in the public domain that Cannan was clever enough to pull it off ,a smooth talker with the ladies prehaps ,an opportunistic rapist and killer yes ,someone capable of ensuring suzy never be found or that no forensic evidence left behind definitely not .This is the work of a more meticulous, calculated individual

 

[Terryb808]

according to detective jim dickie who was SIO in 2000. JC was breaking the hostel curfew all the time and would go missing for days at a time, and it was during this time he started stalking SL. we will never know how many times he left the hostel, but maybe it was not all the time like DS dickie thinks. he also believes JC was staying somewhere in london after he was released from the scrubs on the 25th july, but does not have a clue where. its all just speculation. no wonder the CPS didnt bring charges.

JD doesn’t have a clue about a lot of things in Suzy’s case.

 

[su5ie]

JD doesn’t have a clue about a lot of things in Suzy’s case.

I think in the majority of the many many articles, books and documentaries about suzys disappearance. Unfortunately are imo built on pure speculation. Unreliable witnesses, hypothesis based on assumption by police officers .A media enthralled with DL rather than investigative journalists probing her friends for an unbiased view of suzy's life and very little merit given to the happenings in Suzy's life in the run up to her vanishing. People investigated that prehaps should not have been and other leads or more important possibilities not followed up on

Such as her planned move into a flat being bought by someone else whom never came forward . The prank calls to suzys flat ,did they coincide with the delivery of the flowers or was it just kids or someone who prehaps got her number from the advertised flat for sale .
The two bouquets delivered to suzys flat and place of employment. A company had to have delivered them ,were they paid for by cash ,cheque or Mastercard. Many Shops were cash only and possibly took cheque. Which florist took the order .It may have narrowed a location from which the person was from Phone records may have not been available at the time but florists took note of the transaction in order to deliver the flowers grant it a false name can be given but it may have offered a lead .

No heed in my opinion was paid to any perpetrators recently released or staying at the halfway house including cannan . No attention was given to suzys own complaints of what she was feeling in the days and weeks running up to her disappearance other than prehaps scribbled account in policeman's notebook .

And no timeline that I can see in print of what time KH rang the bank was it before or after suzy ? What time where these calls . Did suzy leave the office that morning on a different errand other than the 12.45 appointment ? and why didn't she tell her colleagues about the supposed viewing if the call came in during the course of the morning. If it was genuine in suzys mind was the call before or after the smoke break? How many times was suzy on the phone that morning? How many of those calls were incoming ?Did the secretary answer office calls first and pass through to the agents desk or did each agent have an extension number ?

 

[WestLondoner]

You could assemble a substantial documentary on this case just from the stuff that is routinely never mentioned about it in any of the others, such as the points you've listed above.

JD's remarks to DV are illuminating.

Albert [Clyne - DV's name for JD - an anagram of "clearly bent"] explained to us that the evidence that pointed to Cannan being Suzy’s killer was collected by the police in 2000, and that there wasn’t any in the original investigation of 1986 and 1987. But, due to new appeals in the press and on the television in 2000, he said four new eyewitnesses had come forward...Albert’s belief, as he explained it, was that when he coupled these new sightings with Cannan’s denial of knowing where Fulham was, alongside claims that Cannan was known by the nickname ‘Kipper’ in prison, it had to mean that Cannan was Suzy’s killer....I then asked Albert if there had been suspects eliminated in the original 1986–87 case. ‘No, no, no, no, no. There wasn’t even a matrix about possible suspects. That was drawn up subsequently…And we eliminated every single one of them, apart from Cannan. Every way we went came back to him.’

Videcette, David. FINDING SUZY: The Hunt for Missing Estate Agent Suzy Lamplugh and 'Mr Kipper' (p. 229). DNA Books. Kindle Edition.

JD is very clear here that the witnesses to Cannan looking through Sturgis' window, and turning up unannounced at a house in Shorrolds Road, all came in 14 years later. They are not contemporary incidents overlooked at the time.

He doesn't say anything about there being Kipper sightings by other agencies, at least not to DV. If that is true, it doesn't point to Cannan, only to there being someone calling himself that - i.e. it's not a name SJL made up just for her diary. It's possible he did say something but DV held it back, because of course any such person in 1986 - whoever he might have been - sinks DV's reasoning for the Kipper name.

Likewise the information that JC possibly had access to a flat in Earl's Court also came in at that time, from the snitch JT. You'd think JD would know this.

 

[Cherwell]

And no timeline that I can see in print of what time KH rang the bank was it before or after suzy ?

It must have been before Suzy rang. When she called the bank she was told that her cheque book was at the Prince of Wales.

 

[WestLondoner]

I was under the impression the pub rang the bank to say we've found your customer's cheque book, and the bank rang SJL to say your cheque book's at the PoW. SJL then rang the PoW to arrange collection. What's less clear is whether there were two calls to the pub, or one. DV likes the idea of two: the first to say I'll come after work and the other after the 6pm viewing request had come in, which took priority - so she had to call again to say I'll come now.

 

[Cherwell]

DV likes the idea of two: the first to say I'll come after work and the other after the 6pm viewing request had come in, which took priority - so she had to call again to say I'll come now.

That makes no sense to me. It was a pub, not a shop or office, so it would have been open all evening and the 6pm viewing would only have meant a delay of maybe an hour at most.

Perhaps if the pub had been a long way from home, but it was literally around the corner from her flat.

 

[Konstantin]

That makes no sense to me. It was a pub, not a shop or office, so it would have been open all evening and the 6pm viewing would only have meant a delay of maybe an hour at most.

Perhaps if the pub had been a long way from home, but it was literally around the corner from her flat.

Yes, and since the pub had already told her that they had her stuff, and were responsible enough to call her bank and let them know -- so her BANK knew the pub had her stuff -- she knew that it was there in their safekeeping until later that day when she could go pick it up before the pub closed at 11pm. On her way home.

 

[WestLondoner]

Well, two possibilities. One, maybe she needed the diary back sooner because it had 'phone numbers in it she needed to use and did not have written down anywhere else. So then she might bring forward the visit. Two, supposedly she was playing tennis that evening after the 6pm viewing, which might leave no time until the next day. The trouble is that the first is conjectural while the only source for this tennis engagement was DL and she was not the most reliable.

The wider points against her going to the PoW are that the WJ sighting at 12.40 undermines it, and that DV hasn't shown the pub wasn't open normally and busy. He may have established this and not written it up, but all we have is his book and there's no evidence in there that the pub was still closed at 1pm.

 

[su5ie]

Well, two possibilities. One, maybe she needed the diary back sooner because it had 'phone numbers in it she needed to use and did not have written down anywhere else. So then she might bring forward the visit. Two, supposedly she was playing tennis that evening after the 6pm viewing, which might leave no time until the next day. The trouble is that the first is conjectural while the only source for this tennis engagement was DL and she was not the most reliable.

The wider points against her going to the PoW are that the WJ sighting at 12.40 undermines it, and that DV hasn't shown the pub wasn't open normally and busy. He may have established this and not written it up, but all we have is his book and there's no evidence in there that the pub was still closed at 1pm.

If the Tennis arrangement was a valid one and not an excuse given by suzy to her mother for whatever reason or one of DLs spiels. This and only this would be a reason to grab her diary earlier than arranged .As you state if she wanted to call this person to say she couldn't make it or would be delayed getting there ,and hadn't got their number memorised. But the red flag for me is Why did this person not come forward? Was suzy playing tennis at a private members club ? Surely if a valid meet up the other person would be a member too .Another lead cops never bothered their behind to check out.

I presume like Tennis clubs today slots and courts were prebooked. Did someone show up and didn't have a partner that was suppose to be there . Like the florists, Tennis clubs presumably weren't checked either The two places that would have had records at the time

 

[WestLondoner]

It could be the police simply weren't interested in the tennis thing because they weren't interested in any possibility other than she went to 37SR.