UK - Terror attacks at London Bridge, Borough Market; 11 confirmed dead, incl. 3 suspects; many injuries. 3 June 2017

[SilkySifaka]

Sky News U.K all 12 people arrested yesterday (Sunday) have been released without charge.

Not a surprise, I didn't think it was a big conspiracy


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[gregjrichards]

Woah. They may have planned to get lots of people hiding in pubs and restaurants and then thrown these bombs into them. It is so fortunate they were shot so quickly.

I'd like to know if they stayed in the vicinity of the van.

Yes thank goodness they were shot within 8 minutes. Apparently 12 petrol bombs were found.

 

[Jennifer17]

Not a surprise, I didn't think it was a big conspiracy


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I don't think that it was long in the planning, either a day or too, at most.

 

[Ironside]

Sky News U.K all 12 people arrested yesterday (Sunday) have been released without charge.

I think some of these people are arrested for their own safety.

 

[SilkySifaka]

I don't think that it was long in the planning, either a day or too, at most.

I agree which is what is scary about these lone wolves. I.e no big cell.you can't stop something like this


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[gregjrichards]

I agree which is what is scary about these lone wolves. I.e no big cell.you can't stop something like this


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I agree and it is very worrying. A big attack like 9/11 is much easier to prevent than three guys hiring a van with sharp knifes you can buy in a home store.

 

[Gardenista]

Here's the documentary with Butt

The Jihadist Next Door Published on Jan 20, 2016

The film followed a group of Britain's most dangerous extremists for two years, giving unprecedented access into the bubbling undercurrent of home-grown terrorism. Documentary maker Jamie Roberts even spent time with Siddhartha Dhar (aka Abu Rumaysah), the former bouncy castle salesman who is now suspected to be the second “Jihadi John”.

[video=youtube;6DsG9yQrdD4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DsG9yQrdD4[/video]

 

[Hatfield]

rbbm.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2017/jun/05/london-attack-isis-claims-responsibility-victims-named-live-updates

Re 3rd bullet in your link
"Imams refuse funeral prayers to 'indefensible' London Bridge attackers
"

I think these Imams are taking a good step in the right direction. I wonder if that is one angle that could really help slow down and maybe even stop some of these terrorists is if more actions like that and more public denouncements like this from their own churches and LE would occur.

Maybe there are other church customs where the person could be denounced or publicly shamed by their own churches. Maybe some churches would go so far as banning their entire family from the church if anyone from their family commits a terrorist murder. If the terrorists begin to feel some real pain on their same level of ideology then it may have a positive impact.

Imagine the results we could have if the fathers of these individuals say to their sons. "If you ever do such a thing and me and Mom get thrown out of our church for your doings, I will spit on your grave and I will personally follow you to your grave to be sure you go downwards instead of upwards."

For the LE angle I dont think everyone realizes that all your family members will be dragged into the police station for questioning. Some may be held there for days. I think it needs to be announced and publisized more by LE that if someone commits an act like this then they need to know that their Moms Dads brothers and sisters and friends will all be dragged into the police station for questioning and some will be held for days at a time.

As a society I dont think we have done enough to make sure the terrorists realize they are publicly shaming their family members and friends as well as themselves when they do this sort of thing.

If the churches and LE use this angle then I do think it could help reduce some of this. There may be other things that can be done along this line. The idea is to hit them where it hurts with their own ideology.
It wont stop all of it of course but it may make some of the young people think twice before becoming a real terrorist.

 

[dotr]

The message is clear.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ram-shazad-butt-rachid-redouane-a7774291.html

[h=1]London attack: 130 imams condemn attackers and refuse to perform funeral prayer for them[/h] Religious leaders would not carry out traditional prayer that is reserved for all Muslims regardless of their actions

”Once again we come together, to stand united against those who try to divide us,” said the chairman of East London Mosque and London Muslim Centre, Muhammad Habibur-Rahman.

“The cold-blooded murder of innocent people in London on Saturday evening will not succeed in driving us apart.

”I have a clear message to those who perpetrate terrorism: you are against the very core teaching of Islam and of our Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.

“Your misguidance will lead you to destruction, and God willing you will utterly fail in your evil aims.

”We stand apart from you and your corruption of the religion of Islam. Terrorism has no faith.“

 

[dotr]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...rket-stabbing-victims-not-speak-a7772846.html

[h=1]London attack: Trauma surgeon Malik Ramadhan says many victims were so shocked they could not speak[/h] Doctor says many patients were conscious as they arrived in A&E

Speaking to Radio 4's Today programme, Dr Ramadhan said: “People who had gone through an experience so traumatic I can’t even imagine were just sitting on trolleys unable to speak.

"We’re a major trauma centre and London has a trauma system so we’re used to seeing people who are badly injured but to receive 12 patients who are all non-medically shocked...I’m humbled by the way they behaved, they were stoical and very patient with us while we did things to them that were probably relatively painful.

Dr Ramadhan said the reason so many people were able to come in and work was because they had been waiting for something like the attack to happen.

He said people working in trauma and emergency care had recently not been doing what they would usually do on a Saturday night.

“People are ready. The major trauma system in London has been preparing for something to happen" he explained. “So doctors like myself who might be going to Borough to see friends... on Saturday night we had a lot of people who were completely sober and ready to help the public"

 

[shadowdancer]

Many terrorists like this in various countries have been arrested for plotting to carryout terrorists attacks. Hundreds have been stopped before they acted in the UK and in the US as well.

Plotting and planning to carryout terrorists attacks are very serious crimes themselves. They do not need to carry it out for it to be a crime.

That's right, but there is a burden of proof on the authorities. If these people are primarily using end-to-end encryption messaging services to plan these attacks, then the authorities will struggle to get enough proof to make arrests. Just knowing that they have expressed ISIS sympathies isn't enough.

 

[shadowdancer]

This makes no sense to me. The family could give them a photo and physical description to ID them.

No they can't. This is not the procedure in the UK.

ALL victims have to be formally identified in person by a family member (or in a pinch, a close friend), EVEN if the victim is carrying id.

If the victim is not in a recognisable state, DNA testing and/or dental records must be used to determine identity.

 

[ZaZara]

I agree and it is very worrying. A big attack like 9/11 is much easier to prevent than three guys hiring a van with sharp knifes you can buy in a home store.

FYI 9/11 wasn't prevented either.
Neither were the recent big attacks like Paris (2x) Brussels, Nice, Manchester.
Yet all were known to LE. Not one jihadist is a lone wolf.

http://observer.com/2017/06/london-bridge-isis-attack-british-m15/
The threat today is less terrorism than a low-grade insurgency, a guerrilla war of sorts, that hangs over much of the continent as thousands of jihadists, made proficient killers by ISIS in Syria and Iraq, return home with visions of killing “infidels,” their former neighbors.

 

[dotr]

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/why-jihadists-want-to-kill
Extremist Islam

How Some Violent People Turn into Terrorists
Jun 5 2017
Simon Cottee

[h=3]"We must understand that it's a death wish that attracts would-be jihadists toward the ideology of jihadism, not the other way around."[/h]On Saturday night, seven people were brutally murdered in a jihadist attack on the London Bridge and Borough Market. Dozens more were critically injured. It is the third terrorist attack in the UK in as many months.

Jihadist attacks occur first and foremost because the attackers want to kill and die. This, as Olivier Roy has trenchantly argued in his recent book, Jihad and Death, is the unmistakable message of their actions, and it is everywhere emblazoned in jihadi talk. But because the attackers use the rhetoric of religion to justify their attacks, shouting "Allahu Akbar" or "this is for Allah" at the moment of slaughter, this blunt fact is obscured, and the focus shifts to the role of Islam in "driving" the attacks. What is obscured is that the desire on the part of the attackers to kill and die invariably precedes their exposure to the jihadist ideology.

To put it another way: It is the wanting—the killing and death wish—that animates would-be jihadists toward the ideology of jihadism, not the other way around.

There is very little that any government can do to derail the delusions of a tiny fringe of disaffected, self-hating, young Muslims in search of a cause. The more immediate challenge, however, is stopping jihadist plots. This isn't going to be easy. It will require greater manpower, better intelligence, and some luck. It will also require building better trust with the communities from which the terrorists come.

 

[MIKAYOYO]

I fear the lone wolf way more than a big Al Queda style attack. I don't live in a big city that attracts the bigger attacks but I do fear the rando sympathizer that would mow down any small city parade or something of that sort.

 

[Shiressleuth]

FYI 9/11 wasn't prevented either.
Neither were the recent big attacks like Paris (2x) Brussels, Nice, Manchester.
Yet all were known to LE. Not one jihadist is a lone wolf.

Are we actually at war? There has been an indication the motive for this particular attack was revenge for the "love from Manchester" bomb .

LE have said there was no planning for this attack and it does seem primitive with the fake vests, petrol bombs, knives and van. I too cannot see how it could have been prevented unless it was the pic of the bomb on the internet that enraged Butt. The second guy whose name was released was not even known to MI5. I am worried that as they have not released a third name, that third person may not have been a perp but a bystander perhaps.
LE have said as there was no evidence of a plot, any arrest would have been difficult prior to the attack. This does lead me to believe it could have been in retaliation for that bomb.

 

[Jennifer17]

Are we actually at war? There has been an indication the motive for this particular attack was revenge for the "love from Manchester" bomb .

Yes, and I think that we (the western world 'we') should not stoop to their level.

 

[Shiressleuth]

That's right, but there is a burden of proof on the authorities. If these people are primarily using end-to-end encryption messaging services to plan these attacks, then the authorities will struggle to get enough proof to make arrests. Just knowing that they have expressed ISIS sympathies isn't enough.

I agree. Unfurling an ISIS flag in the park is obviously not against the law. Perhaps it will be in the future.

 

[MIKAYOYO]

I agree. Unfurling an ISIS flag in the park is obviously not against the law. Perhaps it will be in the future.

It may not be against the law but it should be on top of lists for LEO and maybe worth an eyeball kept on. Idk about anyone else but someone so bold should be watched like a hawk. I don't think I've ever seen people that inyour face in an actual civilized country. I thought that kind of brashness was from those in Syria. That ish wouldn't fly here in the US.

 

[Jennifer17]

It may not be against the law but it should be on top of lists for LEO and maybe worth an eyeball kept on. Idk about anyone else but someone so bold should be watched like a hawk. I don't think I've ever seen people that inyour face in an actual civilized country. I thought that kind of brashness was from those in Syria. That ish wouldn't fly here in the US.

Why would that not come under your freedom of expression first amendment?