GUILTY UK - Tia Sharp, 12, New Addington, London, 3 Aug 2012 #4

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MobyBluff said:
I'm thinking this private investigator is tweeting old news here, but I'm keeping an eye on situation anyway.....can't see why this unknown would know and nobody else.
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Me either, Moby - particuarly all the way from Westminster (which is listed as his or her location).

Still, I keep expecting this 'breaking news' (or something similar) to come for real eventually...
 
I tweeted the criminologist and he said there were no scented candles being burned in the rooms he was in.
 
So, I remembered my friends BIL was found dead in his room (drugs) a few years back, and the family thought he had gone away, as he did often without notice. Only one of the kids peeped in through the window and saw him slumped in a chair, he had been dead for 9 days. There was no odor permeating from the room and it was HOT (we use air conditioning all year round), possibly so hot that the body mummified rather than decomposed. I called her to ask her about this and she said that the PM was done with a clear cause of death.
I am now convinced that with windows open to keep fresh air flowing and loft so hot, that the body could have been there all that time. I also *think* that a smell may have started on the Thurs (interview day) and someone alerted the authorities, possibly the criminologist or family members.
 
Clio said:
It may even be that innocent family members told the police they could smell something and that's why all the activity happened on the Friday.

I agree, it's difficult to understand why the smell wasn't detected earlier, but we don't know how the body was wrapped and what, if anything, may have been used to mask the smell.
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I don't really buy that as a possibility. Why would one of the family tell the police they could smell something rather than telling another member of the family? From the impression I have so far (and it's only an impression) this is a family that sticks together and covers up for each other, no matter what's happened.

SH doesn't come across as a criminal mastermind, so I have to assume he had help from CS (in backing up his funfair story), and clearly from one of the neighbours who said he/she saw Tia that day. Aside from the fact that NS said "I have an independent witness who saw Tia leave the house". Do we know if she heard that directly from the source or whether she was repeating what SH or DS told her to say if she was questioned?

I honestly don't feel that another member of the family told the police they could smell something. They could have done, of course, but I don't think it's likely, given the behaviour we've seen from the family so far. DS has been the spokesperson for the family, and actually, when I watched his pleas for Tia to come home, I noticed that he was very matter-of-fact about it, like he was asking for people to look for a missing pet.

I stand by my theory (until more information comes to light) that they were all fully aware of what happened (after the event) and took the decision that since nothing was going to bring Tia back, there was no point in coming clean, especially if the person who killed Tia convinced them it was just a terrible accident.

And still, what makes no sense at all, is that neither SH or CS thought to ring NS to ask if Tia had gone home, or to ask if she'd heard from her. In my opinion, they didn't call because a) they knew Tia was dead, and b) they didn't want a record of any phone calls. SH was obviously adept at manipulating people to cover up / lie for him, and CS would have known that from her time with him, and from his time with her daughter. Based on that, it's not hard to see how the whole family could have been roped in to carry on the lie, and persuaded that 'families stick together' to make them feel guilty if they didn't want to be a part of it.
 
soozieqtips said:
From the impression I have so far (and it's only an impression) this is a family that sticks together and covers up for each other, no matter what's happened.
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Morning Soozie - please can you tell me what is giving you that impression so that I can also understand that perspective. Thank you. :)
 
soozieqtips said:
especially if the person who killed Tia convinced them it was just a terrible accident.
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We still don't know that anyone did deliberately kill her, do we? Until we hear more about cause of death, I think we should keep an open mind on this.

soozieqtips said:
And still, what makes no sense at all, is that neither SH or CS thought to ring NS to ask if Tia had gone home, or to ask if she'd heard from her.
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Again, I don't think we know this for sure. They may have done. Not every detail gets reported.
 
soozieqtips said:
And still, what makes no sense at all, is that neither SH or CS thought to ring NS to ask if Tia had gone home, or to ask if she'd heard from her. In my opinion, they didn't call because
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because Tia left with her phone and perhaps NS doesn't have a house phone?
 
Just thinking again about the charge against PM for assisting an offender.

Surely this charge cannot just be that he lied when he said he saw TS at midday on Friday, leaving the house.

The charge was made against him on Friday evening ( Aug 10 )

The post mortem began on Saturday Aug 11.

So at the time the charge was made, the police had no idea when TS had died.

It was possible ( and still is ) that she had been alive at midday on Friday, that she did leave the house, but returned later and then died.
 
Alyce said:
Surely this charge cannot just be that he lied when he said he saw TS at midday on Friday, leaving the house.
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I can't see it. Anyone can be mistaken and it would be impossible to prove that someone didn't see a person who resembled Tia.

As for the other witness (JH) not being arrested. There are always lots of reported sightings when someone goes missing. Didn't someone on this forum think they might have seen Tia at Wimbledon? If people thought they risked being arrested for making a false ID in good faith, no one would ever try to help in these cases.
 
soozieqtips said:
I don't really buy that as a possibility. Why would one of the family tell the police they could smell something rather than telling another member of the family? From the impression I have so far (and it's only an impression) this is a family that sticks together and covers up for each other, no matter what's happened.
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I only mentioned it as a possibility. More likely as you say, if a family member did smell something, they would have told another member of the familiy. Perhaps that did happen and as I said in my previous post, confronted SH. Who knows?

SH doesn't come across as a criminal mastermind, so I have to assume he had help from CS (in backing up his funfair story), and clearly from one of the neighbours who said he/she saw Tia that day. Aside from the fact that NS said "I have an independent witness who saw Tia leave the house". Do we know if she heard that directly from the source or whether she was repeating what SH or DS told her to say if she was questioned?
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No we don't know if she heard it directly. I believe SH's conviction for drug dealing was as part of a gang and was not a trivial operation. I don't think we can assume anything at this point.

I honestly don't feel that another member of the family told the police they could smell something. They could have done, of course, but I don't think it's likely, given the behaviour we've seen from the family so far. DS has been the spokesperson for the family, and actually, when I watched his pleas for Tia to come home, I noticed that he was very matter-of-fact about it, like he was asking for people to look for a missing pet.
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I agree that some members of the family seem to have made some questionable lifestyle choices in their time. There doesn't seem to be evidence that DS is one of them. Even if there were, it doesn't mean he was complicit in whatever happened. His matter-of-factness could be down to all sorts of reasons.

I stand by my theory (until more information comes to light) that they were all fully aware of what happened (after the event) and took the decision that since nothing was going to bring Tia back, there was no point in coming clean, especially if the person who killed Tia convinced them it was just a terrible accident.
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We don't yet know the cause of death. Unlikey as it may seem at the moment, she may not have been killed.

And still, what makes no sense at all, is that neither SH or CS thought to ring NS to ask if Tia had gone home, or to ask if she'd heard from her. In my opinion, they didn't call because a) they knew Tia was dead, and b) they didn't want a record of any phone calls. SH was obviously adept at manipulating people to cover up / lie for him, and CS would have known that from her time with him, and from his time with her daughter. Based on that, it's not hard to see how the whole family could have been roped in to carry on the lie, and persuaded that 'families stick together' to make them feel guilty if they didn't want to be a part of it.
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We don't know that nobody thought to phone NS to see if TS had gone home. All we know is that it wasn't mentioned. They may well have phoned and we don't know. You could argue that SH would have said so in his interview but he may not have deemed it important. If NS did lend her phone to TS, then however unlikely it may seem, perhaps NS doesn't have a landline. Again, we only know what little we are told by the media.
 
Adorabella said:
Morning Soozie - please can you tell me what is giving you that impression so that I can also understand that perspective. Thank you. :)
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Morning to you too adorabella,

Like I said, it's just an impression. Firstly, when I thought of other cases like this, Milly Dowler, Joanna Yeates and Sarah Payne, for example, the emotional grief and heartache in the 'come home pleas' was very evident and felt genuine. There wasn't an appointed spokesperson who talked in a very unemotional way on behalf of the rest of the family (that I can remember, anyway).

Add to that the fact that not one of them made an appeal directly to the possible kidnapper (as someone noted in an earlier post). Why make a plea directly to the missing child and not to the person who could be holding her? Because they knew no one was holding her?

Also, they don't exactly come across as a shy retiring sort of family who wouldn't say boo to a goose. And if NS has been the victim of domestic violence (as suggested by some of the things we've read regarding the Social Services referrals), then she would have already been intimidated by the males in her life and may have felt she had no choice but to go along with the 'stronger' members of the family. If she knew what had happened and felt unable to do anything about it, and was in emotional turmoil about what had happened, it would help to explain why she was never seen on camera pleading with people to come forward, or asking Tia's 'kidnapper' to let her go - because the family knew she'd give something away, hence, appointing DS to speak for everyone.

In families with domestic violence, you often find out it's been going on for years and years and years, from one generation to the next, and so on. Some women will eventually begin to feel helpless and worthless and be treated like crap by men for the rest of their lives. In NS's situation, maybe her mother was also the victim of domestic violence, or maybe the mother was the instigator because of what had happened in her own childhood. Maybe NS always deferred to the men in her life (or her mum), and this time was no different.

My long-winded point (sorry!) is that taking the family on what we've seen, what they've said, how they've reacted, the SH interview, NS missing from cameras, DS appointed spokesperson, issues of domestic violence in the past, drug-dealing, machete-wielding step-granddads who date daughters and then the mothers... well, there are no boundaries in that family, and if each member has the some sort of disregard for the law, or low self esteem due to their upbringing, then 'family' might be all they have. The family might also be the only 'friends' they have, and covering up and lying for each other might be what they've been conditioned to do throughout life.
 
Alyce said:
Just thinking again about the charge against PM for assisting an offender.

Surely this charge cannot just be that he lied when he said he saw TS at midday on Friday, leaving the house.

The charge was made against him on Friday evening ( Aug 10 )

The post mortem began on Saturday Aug 11.

So at the time the charge was made, the police had no idea when TS had died.

It was possible ( and still is ) that she had been alive at midday on Friday, that she did leave the house, but returned later and then died.
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I agree with you, but he was arrested on "suspicion"...
 
Thanks Soozie, I appreciate you taking the time to explain all of that.

Based on those ideas, here's another tangent (that could be thwarted by the Thursday evening Co-op footage) about domestic violence happening at her actual home...do we know whether it was DN who was the perpetrator that the press have referred to?

If it was, could TS have returned home on Thursday evening (as I had originally understood that she was expected to) and been subject to severe domestic violence that resulted in her death? Rather than DN taking the rap and NS being left with 2 small children etc, it was decided that SH would take the rap (as he has less to lose and has been in and out of prison etc). Perhaps they thought that there would be no evidence to convict him other than the body that they stored in the loft and so everyone would ultimately be free?

Just trying to think from an alternative view point which would also explain various demeanours/ reactions etc - probably a crazy idea (so I will say sorry up front).
 
Cherwell said:
We still don't know that anyone did deliberately kill her, do we? Until we hear more about cause of death, I think we should keep an open mind on this.
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I think so too! The odds that Tia died from natural causes, or accidentally fell down the stairs and died and was then shoved in a loft to rot for 8 days while her family went about printing t-shirts and posters are extremely slim. I'm thinking of what is most 'likely', not of what is most unlikely. That doesn't mean I have a closed mind. It means I'm starting with the most obvious theory.

If you think it's probable that Tia wasn't killed by anyone, that's fine. I don't have to agree with it just as you don't have to agree with my theory that Tia was deliberately killed. We are simply discussing what we think may have happened. As for phoning NS, you said that just because SH didn't mention it during the interview, it doesn't mean they didn't do it. Once again, we are merely discussing what we think may have happened based on our own individual theories.

And about phoning NS...
Cherwell said:
Again, I don't think we know this for sure. They may have done. Not every detail gets reported.
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I watched the entire full-length interview an at no point did SH say he'd phoned NS to check if she'd heard from Tia. In my opinion, if SH and CS had phoned NS (as would be considered normal under the circumstances) then he would have said so. He took great care to tell us all about the cleaning in minute detail, and what a 'happy go-lucky perfect golden angel' she was, and yet, when recounting his and CS's actions after they began to get 'worried' - their first reaction was to visit a funfair (?) and then drive to NS's house... all without calling to let them know what was happening?

If you believe that they did call NS, but SH just forgot to mention it in his interview, that's fine too. I don't agree with that line of thinking though, just as you don't agree with mine. Neither of us is right or wrong. We are just giving theories based on our own interpretation of events.
 
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