GUILTY UK - Tia Sharp, 12, New Addington, London, 3 Aug 2012 #4

[wfgodot]

And does anyone have a link to information about just how long the police thought Tia might still be alive?

And here's that link, quoting from a press conference on 08 August:

[Basu] stressed the investigation remains a missing persons inquiry, with no suspects. "I am looking to find Tia safe and well," he added.

Shannon Matthews comparison 'deeply unhelpful', say Tia Sharp police (Guardian)

Basu's comment is good policy but it is a long way from saying that, at this point, police still expected that Tia was alive.

 

[Skigh]

But if they thought it was simply a Shannon Matthews type of kidnap, why search bins and woodland? Shannon was found in a house. If the police seriously thought Tia had been kidnapped by the family for a ransom, why were they searching bins while saying at the same time 'we expect to find her alive and well?' - do you think they were just searching bins to show they were doing something? Maybe the reason they missed the body in the loft (if it was there) was because they assumed the family wouldn't 'kidnap' Tia and hide her at home, so maybe the search was a very brief one just to rule out the possibility?

I do not think the police only pursue one line of inquiry-they might have a very strong hunch ,but they have to follow routine procedures.
opalsqueak63 has described from personal experience what the police would do when initially searching for a missing person.
It certainly would be routine to search bins and the local area.

 

[wfgodot]

Article from the Guardian in which Commander Neil Basu states that the case is still a missing persons inquiry:

Shannon Matthews comparison 'deeply unhelpful', say Tia Sharp police

[Basu] stressed the investigation remains a missing persons inquiry, with no suspects. "I am looking to find Tia safe and well," he added.

This, from a press conference on 08 August (Guardian article dated 09 August) stops well short of saying that the police expect that Tia will be found "safe and well."

 

[nursebeeme]

stop now
Do not discuss moderation on the thread. Do not discuss other posters. And do not attack one another.
:nurse:

 

[Salem]

Get back on topic here, and knock off the bickering.

Salem

 

[laserdisc10]

What physical evidence would suggest to police that TS might still have been alive during those first searches? Were there signs TS had stuggled within the bin liner and sheet, for example? Whilst decomposition might hamper determination of time and cause of death, there must have been something visible, outside of decomp, to suggest to police TS may still have been alive at least for some time after being placed in the loft

Working on from this, did the accused know or suspect TS was alive when placed in the loft ? If so, a lesser charge than murder may be sought by the accused's legal representatives

 

[graceholl]

And here's that link, quoting from a press conference on 08 August:

Shannon Matthews comparison 'deeply unhelpful', say Tia Sharp police (Guardian)

Basu's comment is good policy but it is a long way from saying that, at this point, police still expected that Tia was alive.

I agree. The police cannot come straight out and say the word "murder" until there is substantial evidence OF a murder. In this case it seems the only evidence of murder was when the body was actually found.

I maintain my belief that the police did not suspect she was dead, but I believe they centred their investigations around the family from the get-go because of a) no CCTV footage and b) mobile phone at home. Whilst the comparisons to the Shannon Matthews case may have been 'deeply unhelpful' I think that the police were possibly following precedent based on that case, regarding the fact that Tia may have been dead as an outside possibility, and that may be why the body was not found instantly because they were looking for signs of life, not death. Seems ridiculous still that she lay undiscovered for over a week, but is the most plausible theory in my mind given what we know.

 

[soozieqtips]

And here's that link, quoting from a press conference on 08 August:

Shannon Matthews comparison 'deeply unhelpful', say Tia Sharp police (Guardian)

Basu's comment is good policy but it is a long way from saying that, at this point, police still expected that Tia was alive.

How is Basu saying "I am still looking to find Tia safe and well" 5 days after Tia went 'missing', a 'long way' from saying he still expected her to be alive?

It's the same thing. If he still thought they'd find her 'safe and well' after 5 days - then it stands to reason that he expected to find her alive and well.

 

[graceholl]

What physical evidence would suggest to police that TS might still have been alive during those first searches? Were there signs TS had stuggled within the bin liner and sheet, for example? Whilst decomposition might hamper determination of time and cause of death, there must have been something visible, outside of decomp, to suggest to police TS may still have been alive at least for some time after being placed in the loft

Working on from this, did the accused know or suspect TS was alive when placed in the loft ? If so, a lesser charge than murder may be sought by the accused's legal representatives

Again is this not just police policy to give massively ambiguous statements until the solid facts are brought to trial? With an obviously decomposed body time of death will have been mighty hard to ascertain, but going by common sense, I don't think they can honestly believe she was alive up there beyond Friday 3rd August, early a.m? Nonetheless they have to be very careful with what they divulge in their statements so it is not a surprise that there is speculation she may have been alive for some time after she was reported missing. It would certainly add some form of sense to this bizarre case in the form of how a body was left undetected for 8 days (if she'd have been alive for part of it then surely there would have been a smell).

Anyway, I'm playing devil's advocate with myself, I believe the poor girl was dead on Thursday night.

 

[wfgodot]

How is Basu saying "I am still looking to find Tia safe and well" 5 days after Tia went 'missing', a 'long way' from saying he still expected her to be alive?

It's the same thing. If he still thought they'd find her 'safe and well' after 5 days - then it stands to reason that he expected to find her alive and well.

No, it's not, really - "looking to find" is a deliberate choice of phrase, one which might indicate many things. The verb choice (looking to find v. expecting to find) is the giveaway. One might look - which connotes hope - for many things, for Tia to be found safe and well; expecting to find her safe and well at that point is not quite the same thing at all.

And I do think the headline there also signals this. Guardian I do not believe would have slapped that title on the article without cause, nor would the police have made that distinction without cause.

 

[opalsqueak63]

Perhaps because mobile phone usage tells its own story and they had to find what they thought was a plausable story for Tia to be missing for a while with out a mobile.They also might have needed time to make sure no incriminating DNA was left on her clothing.

But if they destroyed the sim the police would still have the phone providers records which would show the last place/area where the phone was used and last time calls were made from the phone

I do not think the police only pursue one line of inquiry-they might have a very strong hunch ,but they have to follow routine procedures.
opalsqueak63 has described from personal experience what the police would do when initially searching for a missing person.
It certainly would be routine to search bins and the local area.

Yes. When my sister went missing, all bins were searched in the village and hedgerows, lanes etc were searched, as well as our house being searched extensively on the second day. It was routine and I believe it still is. It's not that long ago.

 

[Alyce]

What physical evidence would suggest to police that TS might still have been alive during those first searches? Were there signs TS had stuggled within the bin liner and sheet, for example? Whilst decomposition might hamper determination of time and cause of death, there must have been something visible, outside of decomp, to suggest to police TS may still have been alive at least for some time after being placed in the loft

Working on from this, did the accused know or suspect TS was alive when placed in the loft ? If so, a lesser charge than murder may be sought by the accused's legal representatives

When I initially read in DM that police said they could not rule out that TS might have been alive during the first searches, I took it as a damage limitation comment to deflect from the criticism they were receiving.
ie; they only found the body after 8 days because it had only been a * body* for perhaps 4 or 5 days.

However, your comment Laser raises the possibility that there may have been something more concrete behind the police words

 

[Jackalyn]

A family member tells me on Friday 3rd they were mesmerised by two young girls in leopoard skin leggings. It was on a tram that had the potential to go to New Addington. \This family member was so concerned, as it bugged them that this might be a sighting of Tia, that they actually contacted the police.

Neither girl was Tia as far as is known.

 

[Jackalyn]

Now I am wondering. Did my family member's report make them think Tia was alive at first? Maybe they did initially think this was a sighting of Tia in the right place at the right time. The sighting was FROM Addington and about 11 am in the morning.....(The family member says they got the impression however, they already thought her dead).

 

[Saturn]

Don't panic Jackalyn,your family member did what they did in utmost good faith, and I reckon 90% would have done the same to try to help. Even if they did follow the lead, there would have been loads more following a different lead.

Please don't let this prevent them from trying to help again in the future, should the need arise.

 

[opalsqueak63]

Hi all.

I thought this might be interesting for someone regarding police procedure in missing persons cases. The bolding is mine. The process is standardised although this excerpt is from Sussex Police missing persons policy, http://www.sussex.police.uk/about-u...nt-force-policies/missing-persons-policy-(1)/

6.3 Publicity

6.3.1 The officer in charge of each case will decide the extent to which publicity is to be used and the form that it will take. The early involvement of instant local media, e.g. local radio stations, should always be considered when the initial lines of enquiry are set. This should be the case even if the incident is not suitable for Child Rescue Alert.

6.3.2 Publicity should only normally be undertaken with the consent of relatives of the missing person....

7 SEARCH

The search element should be considered in two phases:

Immediate
Systematic

(See Appendix O - Search guidance for clarification on the expectations at each level of search and details of other resources which may be able to assist)

7.1 Immediate

On many occasions a missing person, well or otherwise, is still within the boundaries of their home. The first officer attending the report of a missing person will be responsible for ensuring that a thorough 'open door' search is made of the person's address (including outbuildings, garages, lofts etc) and any other relevant premises or locations.

The objectives of the search are to discover:

The missing person;
Evidence relating to their disappearance;
Intelligence that may lead to their discovery.

Full details of the search (officer(s) details, times and extent) must be recorded on COMPACT, including any areas that have not been searched and the reasons why.

(See Appendix O for guidance on searching)

7.2 Systematic Search

The second level of search involves a fully managed systematic search to a high level of assurance. This will often require the use of specialist resources such as a POLSA, search trained officers or trained volunteer groups.

(See Appendix M O for guidance)

8 INVESTIGATION

8.1 Investigative premise

The investigative principles of 'Quality Focussed Investigation' will be applied to all missing person investigations.

All enquiries will be undertaken from the position that the disappearance is crime related. One of the fundamental facts to be determined is why the subject has disappeared. In cases where the circumstances are suspicious or unexplained, use the maxim:

IF IN DOUBT, THINK MURDER

Failure to apply such thinking may lead to the loss of valuable investigative opportunities.

 

[Jackalyn]

ALL I meant was that with this and other sightings the police may have initially had the theory that Tia was alive. Possibly others saw the same girls and reached the same conclusion and as not every young girl wears those leggings and these girls were bound for New Addington this would account for the high number of sightings reported - others on the bus may have reported the same.

 

[Saturn]

Jackalyn, perhaps I used panic as the wrong word, maybe don't fret, or don't worry would have been better, but your initial post gave the impression that a sighting by your family member may have had them on a wild goose chase, which unsettled your family member.

I have edited my post to remove your family member's name, but you may wish to do the same with quote you did of my post.

 

[Jackalyn]

No not a wild goose chase - just a sensible reaction to what they saw. After all, at that point it COULD have been Tia. There were about 77 'sightings' by members of the public. I suspect many of them will have come from a similar kind of circumstance. It might be logical for the police to have been working on the theory Tia was alive at the start of the investigation. Though I suspect they worked with alternative theories, but the dominant one at that time was that there was a good chance Tia was alive.

I think that it is important that anyone who sees anything in these circumstances reports it even if what they see is subsequently ruled out.

 

[Saturn]

No not a wild goose chase - just a sensible reaction to what they saw. After all, at that point it COULD have been Tia.

I agree: and they did the right thing.