GUILTY UK - Tia Sharp, 12, New Addington, London, 3 Aug 2012 #4

[Skigh]

He made such an issue of that ten pounds, though. Of money in general, as I bolded some days ago, based on the frequent mention of money in the tv interview

DN mentioned the flip-flops. SH mentioned the flip-flops

By now, police will have questioned the friend who reportedly stayed with TS at NS's place on Wednesday night and will have asked the friend what, if anything, TS said about flip-flops and about possibly going to buy them the next day

Unless NS and DN can explain how TS proposed to buy them and by whom the money had been or would be provided, then I'm inclined to suspect that CS had promised TS the money prior to the time in question and this was at least one of the reasons TS set off for CS's place on Thursday. As CS must have known she'd be working when TS arrived, it makes sense to me that CS would have given SH money for the pizza and chips for TS and also money for flip-flops. SH said in the interview that the food items he purchased, he'd actually bought 'for Chris', implying CS had instructed/asked SH to buy certain items -- such as the Knobbly Wobblies or whatever they were, three of which were eaten by TS. SH says he prevented TS from eating the fourth and last because of Chris 'seeing the packet' or words to that effect and realising all were gone. Different versions of the tv interview doing the rounds at the time and some mentioned that last bit and some did not

When Tia travelled it was a warm day-why would she chose to wear Ugg boots.

Pictures of both Granny and NS show them to be wearing flip flop type sandals.
I would have thought Tia in the summer would have already owned a couple of pairs of summer sandals they can be bought for a few pounds.

I think this buying of flipflops is to explain away the wearing of the Ugg boots on a hot summer's day.
It makes it sound as if she did not own summer sandals.

 

[Clio]

It was quite striking that the police apology was addressed to Tia's mother, rather than the family as a whole.

Interesting that in the most recent statement they say

"We want to learn lessons from this particular case. We have apologised and I repeat that apology today to Tia's mum and family for not having found Tia's body sooner."

http://news.sky.com/story/975809/tia-no-sole-officer-blamed-for-body-blunder

Perhaps some further investigations have gone on in the interim which account for the change in wording. Or perhaps there's no significance

 

[laserdisc10]

BIB Whoa. Where did they say that? I think I must have missed something. The police said



Wasn't it was only the media speculating that she may have been alive?

Ah Clio -- you're the meticulous one, not me. I just assume 'offending items' will not be purged from the record. And once again, I've misplaced my trust it appears. Unless one of our more able sleuthers can dig it out

I'm surprised though that you're surprised, because I've raised this issue long before today and back when the information may well have been accessible (pre purge) yet no-one questioned it. Maybe that's because others had seen it too?

Whatever the case, police speculating TS may still have been alive when they conducted the initial search is not readily available online any longer, despite I've been searching now for approx. 15 minutes with no success

The reason I've continually raised the issue in conjunction with reports the body required (due to advanced decomposition) dental record identification is because together, the two make no sense. And I have raised the issue several times since the body was discovered for that very reason

 

[josquin]

The Police haven't confirmed that the body wasn't moved have they? I can only recall their statement saying the area where TS was found had been previously searched - and then an apology to the mother for the delay.

I found a German news report:
Eine Linie der Untersuchung ist, dass der Körper zwischen Wohnungen könnten verschoben wurden, um sie von Offizieren zu verbergen. Kommandant Neil Basu sagte: *Selbstverständlich wird es viele Fragen über die Untersuchung über das Verschwinden Tia sein und ich möchte diese Gelegenheit nutzen, einige der Spekulation zu klären. Als die Polizei Fällen als schwierig und herausfordernd, da dies zu untersuchen, ist es wichtig, dass wir nicht nur auf einer Linie der Untersuchung konzentrieren.*

The section of text between the asterisks reflects what was reported in the English media:
"Clearly there will be many questions about the investigation into Tia's disappearance and I want to take this opportunity to clarify some of the speculation.When police investigate cases as difficult and challenging as this, it is important that we do not just focus on one line of enquiry."
However, I don't remember the first sentence being quoted in the press - it says: "One line of enquiry is that the body might have been moved between properties to hide it from police officers."
It seems strange to use 'line of enquiry' rather than 'there is speculation that'.

 

[josquin]

I
However, I don't remember the first sentence being quoted in the press - it says: "One line of enquiry is that the body might have been moved between properties to hide it from police officers."
It seems strange to use 'line of enquiry' rather than 'there is speculation that'.

I don't mean strange; I probably mean significant

 

[Clio]

Ah Clio -- you're the meticulous one, not me. I just assume 'offending items' will not be purged from the record. And once again, I've misplaced my trust it appears. Unless one of our more able sleuthers can dig it out

I'm surprised though that you're surprised, because I've raised this issue long before today and back when the information may well have been accessible (pre purge) yet no-one questioned it. Maybe that's because others had seen it too?

Whatever the case, police speculating TS may still have been alive when they conducted the initial search is not readily available online any longer, despite I've been searching now for approx. 15 minutes with no success

The reason I've continually raised the issue in conjunction with reports the body required (due to advanced decomposition) dental record identification is because together, the two make no sense. And I have raised the issue several times since the body was discovered for that very reason

I know the police said they expected to find TS alive and well early in the week that she went "missing". I'm probably a bit slow but it wasn't until you phrased it the way you did just now that I thought, hang on I've never seen a police quote that said she might have been alive during the second search.

To the best of my knowledge, the police have always said that the body should have been found during the second search

 

[Cherwell]

I've raised this issue long before today and back when the information may well have been accessible (pre purge) yet no-one questioned it. Maybe that's because others had seen it too?

Whatever the case, police speculating TS may still have been alive when they conducted the initial search is not readily available online any longer, despite I've been searching now for approx. 15 minutes with no success

The reason I've continually raised the issue in conjunction with reports the body required (due to advanced decomposition) dental record identification is because together, the two make no sense. And I have raised the issue several times since the body was discovered for that very reason

Certainly in the early days of the search, hope was expressed by police spokesmen that Tia would be found alive and well. I don't recall any such suggestion from police sources after the body was found, although I may have missed it of course.

Re the need for dental ID. This can be necessary in cases of damage or disfigurement. Not saying this is the reason here, just that decomposition isn't always the only factor.

 

[soozieqtips]

What would the journey time from Merton to East Croydon be.
That would be a clue to a poosible time she left home

it's about 20 minutes, and about halfway between Mitcham and New Addington. If she used the Mitcham Junction tram stop (the same one I do) she'd have to get there from home, and it's about 2.5 miles away. Not sure if a bus goes to the tram stop, as I walk to it from my house - but add on another half an hour for her to get from Lancaster Avenue to Mitcham Junction, and if she arrived in East Croydon about 4ish, she would have left home roughly between 3/3-15pm. That's assuming she was still at home right up until she left.

 

[Skigh]

I found a German news report:
Eine Linie der Untersuchung ist, dass der Körper zwischen Wohnungen könnten verschoben wurden, um sie von Offizieren zu verbergen. Kommandant Neil Basu sagte: *Selbstverständlich wird es viele Fragen über die Untersuchung über das Verschwinden Tia sein und ich möchte diese Gelegenheit nutzen, einige der Spekulation zu klären. Als die Polizei Fällen als schwierig und herausfordernd, da dies zu untersuchen, ist es wichtig, dass wir nicht nur auf einer Linie der Untersuchung konzentrieren.*

The section of text between the asterisks reflects what was reported in the English media:
"Clearly there will be many questions about the investigation into Tia's disappearance and I want to take this opportunity to clarify some of the speculation.When police investigate cases as difficult and challenging as this, it is important that we do not just focus on one line of enquiry."However, I don't remember the first sentence being quoted in the press - it says: "One line of enquiry is that the body might have been moved between properties to hide it from police officers."
It seems strange to use 'line of enquiry' rather than 'there is speculation that'.

I find this statement interesting- If it was just SH on his own I would have thought by now it would be quite a sraightforward case.

 

[laserdisc10]

Re: purged information concerning police speculation (after the fact) that TS may have still been alive at teh time of the initial search

So successful has been the purge that all I'm able to offer currently is comment from another forum re: the policing of the case:

I understand what you're saying, I just don't completely agree. The media didn't find out until after the first search (they are now saying they are unable to confirm she was dead at the time ) The only way I can agree is if we accept that the police are likely to be more careful because past experience has told them what will happen when the media sniff a story. But I don't think that's what you're saying

Won't add the link seeing it's not a news or police site and the 'they' in the bracketed '(they are now saying they are unable to confirm she was dead at the time)' refers to the police, not the media, imo

If citing the above contravenes Websleuths rules, please remove and accept my apologies. Shouldn't be necessary we have to seek police statements in other fora. Citing police statements such as the above can not be justifiably removed on the pretext it might 'jeopardise provision of fair trial'. Instead, it's just a case of the police covering up their own incompetence

 

[soozieqtips]

laserdisc10 - I too, was quite sure that the police suggested Tia might still have been alive during the Sunday search. But when I searched online, there was nothing there. However, I do remember (much later) seeing a newspaper headline that said something like: "Tia could have still been alive during the second search" - and I then wondered if I'd ever seen the police suggestion that she was still alive, or only the newspaper headline. With so many things being removed, it's hard to know for sure what we've read. I wish I'd copied all the relevant articles and kept them just so we had something to refer to that hasn't disappeared into oblivion!

 

[soozieqtips]

laserdisc10 - I managed to find this!

Although Tia had clearly been dead for some time, officers have not been able to rule out that the schoolgirl was alive when colleagues first visited the council house in New Addington, near Croydon, South London, after she vanished a week earlier.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...heartbreak-death-baby-girl.html#ixzz24NDEjsAH

So we didn't imagine it. They don't say "it is understood that officers have not been able to rule out.........." - they say "officers have not been able to rule out" - which to me, indicates the reporting of a direct fact rather than a second-hand one.

EDIT: I see they are referring to the first search, not the Sunday search.

 

[Skigh]

laserdisc10 - I too, was quite sure that the police suggested Tia might still have been alive during the Sunday search. But when I searched online, there was nothing there. However, I do remember (much later) seeing a newspaper headline that said something like: "Tia could have still been alive during the second search" - and I then wondered if I'd ever seen the police suggestion that she was still alive, or only the newspaper headline. With so many things being removed, it's hard to know for sure what we've read. I wish I'd copied all the relevant articles and kept them just so we had something to refer to that hasn't disappeared into oblivion!

The first searches would be for looking for Tia alive.

The second search was on Sunday and nothing was found.
Is it possible some evidence was found to go in and search with the dogs on Wednesday?

 

[soozieqtips]

The first searches would be for looking for Tia alive.

The second search was on Sunday and nothing was found.
Is it possible some evidence was found to go in and search with the dogs on Wednesday?

I don't know. Maybe the police were observing the family's behaviour for a while, and became suspicious that the whole 'shopping' tale was just a lie, and therefore she had never left the house.

 

[laserdisc10]

And here we have it, at least in part:

Although Tia had clearly been dead for some time, officers have not been able to rule out that the schoolgirl was alive when colleagues first visited the council house in New Addington, near Croydon, South London, after she vanished a week earlier

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...24-hour-watch-jail-death-threats-inmates.html

 

[Skigh]

it's about 20 minutes, and about halfway between Mitcham and New Addington. If she used the Mitcham Junction tram stop (the same one I do) she'd have to get there from home, and it's about 2.5 miles away. Not sure if a bus goes to the tram stop, as I walk to it from my house - but add on another half an hour for her to get from Lancaster Avenue to Mitcham Junction, and if she arrived in East Croydon about 4ish, she would have left home roughly between 3/3-15pm. That's assuming she was still at home right up until she left.

I do find it strange that there has been no mention of any contact/conversation with her mother on Thursday morning.

I would presume that DN would have left for work much earlier in the day-so if a few hours had passed how did he know that Tia had not got her mobile working again and borrowed her mothers

 

[Skigh]

Ok, if we go with that for a moment and suppose TS was alive on Wednesday as you've used as example and used her mobile phone -- let's say at NS's house

So then, just for argument's sake, let's say TS died (no need here to speculate how)

Now the killer/s have a body. They don't want to be discovered. So what's to stop them from hopping on a bus or train to somewhere twenty miles distant, at which point they use TS's phone very briefly. It registers with the mobile tower 20K from NS's place

Then, onto another bus or train in another direction - use TS's phone again very briefly and it pings with another mobile tower. By this point, mobile records would register a triangle

Another train or bus that same day or the next - final use of TS's phone then remove the sim, toss the phone in a water-filled ditch. Child missing. Phone has no sim so no pings to any mobile towers and phone isn't discovered for six months and is in any case useless

Meanwhile, body has been removed to waste-land, whatever and is eventually discovered. If police have not discovered evidence in either NS's or CS's places and no other information has come to light - wouldn't the killer/s have a very good chance of evading discovery?

(Ps: just for the record, I've never bought the 'Huntley guilty' story. Don't want to derail the thread or discuss it further - just not prepared to base my sleuthing of the TS case on anything emerging from that previous case. Not persuaded Tabak was anything other than a medicated patsy, either)

After you posted this I am wondering what your motive is in questioning whether Tia could be alive during the police searches.

 

[soozieqtips]

I do find it strange that there has been no mention of any contact/conversation with her mother on Thursday morning.

I would presume that DN would have left for work much earlier in the day-so if a few hours had passed how did he know that Tia had not got her mobile working again and borrowed her mothers

True. But he said her phone was 'broken', which I take to mean actually broken and not just flat. Was it broken in an argument? If Tia was still with her friend up until the time she left to go to East Croydon, then her friend would be of great interest to the police. Hope against hope that the friend's family don't put pressure on her to keep quiet for the sake of the 'community'. If Tia shared lots of stuff with her about her life (as young girls do with their friends) - then the friend might be the only one who can tell the police about what had been going on prior to her 'disappearance'. If her parents tell her to say she doesn't know anything, then I'm sure that's what she'll do, say nothing, or pretend Tia didn't talk to her about private stuff.

 

[opalsqueak63]

If NS had some suspected involvement in knowing what had happened, would the police have issued a statement apologising for not discovering the body? I reckon she's clear, at least as far as the police are concerned.

Yes, they might have done it to:

- lull any other people involved in Tia's death into a false sense of security. To make them relax and think " the police don't even know we moved the body - they must be stupid - we can relax a bit. The police can then observe the reactions.

- to keep the local community onside.

The police can be sneaky you know - they have to be!

 

[Skigh]

Yes, they might have done it to:

- lull any other people involved in Tia's death into a false sense of security. To make them relax and think " the police don't even know we moved the body - they must be stupid - we can relax a bit. The police can then observe the reactions.

- to keep the local community onside.

The police can be sneaky you know - they have to be!

I agree any statements from the police will be two fold.
One to get the media onside and secondly to pass messages on to any one else who could be involved in Tia's death.
They will be carefully thought out and worded.

Depends how strong family loyalties are -even if she was involved in someway or had knowledge about what happened the police might be hoping NS will co-operate with them and become a witness for the prosecution