GUILTY UT - Brian Mitchell & Wanda Barzee for kidnapping, Salt Lake City, 5 June 2002

[tlcya]

I personally would have extended apologies to the Ricci family that the publicity around his being a wrongfully accused suspect led to his vilification. But I am not the Smarts. I cannot walk in their shoes anymore than I can walk in the shoes of the Ricci family.

This whole incident is regretable and sad for all involved. I have read this thread in its entirety and I see both sides. Can I be angry at Ed Smart. Not really. Can I wish he could find it in his heart to at least extend some sort of olive branch to Angela Ricci. Yes.

 

[Tricia]

With respect, I think you're misreading the quote you provided. Saying someone isn't "forthcoming" doesn't automatically imply they are guilty of the crime in question. (People can be and have been less than forthcoming for lots of reasons.)

Smart IS blaming Ricci for helping to make himself a suspect. And I have no doubt that is what Smart was told by LE.

Could Smart have been more gracious now that it's clear Ricci had nothing to do with the abduction? Yes, he could have. But if he is still blaming Ricci for the abduction, you're right: I haven't heard or seen it. (I admit this is not a case I follow closely.)

In no way has Ed Smart indicated that he thinks Richard Ricci is guilty. I too understand what Ed is saying and I agree Nova. He is saying Richard didn't cooperate so therefore caused the suspicion to fall on himself basically. And that is the problem. Ricci did cooperate.

Just want to make sure you all know no one is saying Ed is implicating Ricci. He is not at all.

 

[harleysnana]

Trust me. He did cooperate. This is mis information. He fully and completely cooperated. Ed Smart did not speak the truth and that is why Angela is hurt.

After what the police did in this case I wouldn't take what they said as gospel truth. Normally I would be the first one to defend the police but they kept trying to get Richard to admit he did something when he didn't.

The police also said Richard took his car out of the auto shop and drove it the night of the kidnapping. Not true.

They said Angela was passed out on the couch and didn't know Richard had left. Not true. I could go on and on and on. What I would like to see happen is the case files opened up. But that is not going to happen.

The people who did not do their jobs are no longer with the police department.

One of the FBI agents involved told Angela the first day there were out there that he was so sure of Richard's guilt that he would climb the highest mountain and shout Richard was innocent and quit his job if he was wrong.

Their minds were made up.

Richard Ricci was a criminal. I am not defending that part nor defending what he did. Like I said I would have throttled him had I been told he kidnapped my child.

But part of the reason we are such great country is we are all suppose to be treated equally. The police decided Richard was guilty damn the facts. He wasn't treated equally imo.

I don't want to say negative things about Ed Smart. He has done so much good in the face of adversity.

To me this is such a simple issue of human decency that's all. All the other things around it make the message become lost.

To reach out to the widow of a man wrongly accused in your daughter's kidnapping seems so simple. It would help her heal so much.

Bold by me.
I don't understand how this can be stated as a fact.
I'm not saying that mistakes were not made, but at the time of Richards
arrest everyone thought he did it. IF the police have lied about the facts
then I think the police should be held accountable. Not Ed Smart.
He is going by what he has been told... not just him but everyone in Utah....
“Richard Ricci did not cooperate.”
They said it over and over again.
If it comes down to a criminal, and the police... I will go with the police any
day. That is just my opinion.
I understand his wife is hurt. She did get a large sum of money from the
state for their wrong doing. IF she is mad at anyone and IF there was
mistakes made.. she should be mad at the ones who made them.
I still believe that Richard Ricci did not cooperate.
Unless you, me, Angela, or anyone else here was in the room when he was
questioned then the truth is we really don’t know if he cooperated.
Richard put himself in this position by committing crimes and committing
crimes against the Smarts.
My heart goes out to his wife.
My heart goes out to Ed Smart…. there really are no winners in this case.

 

[Tricia]

Bold by me.
I don't understand how this can be stated as a fact.
I'm not saying that mistakes were not made, but at the time of Richards
arrest everyone thought he did it. IF the police have lied about the facts
then I think the police should be held accountable. Not Ed Smart.
He is going by what he has been told... not just him but everyone in Utah....
“Richard Ricci did not cooperate.”
They said it over and over again.
If it comes down to a criminal, and the police... I will go with the police any
day. That is just my opinion.
I understand his wife is hurt. She did get a large sum of money from the
state for their wrong doing. IF she is mad at anyone and IF there was
mistakes made.. she should be mad at the ones who made them.
I still believe that Richard Ricci did not cooperate.
Unless you, me, Angela, or anyone else here was in the room when he was
questioned then the truth is we really don’t know if he cooperated.
Richard put himself in this position by committing crimes and committing
crimes against the Smarts.
My heart goes out to his wife.
My heart goes out to Ed Smart…. there really are no winners in this case.

Angela was in the room.

 

[believe09]

I guess the funny thing about an apology is that restitution usually follows hot on it's heels.

I am not saying that this is what Mrs Ricci is looking for-restitution that is.

But our society works that way. Mr. Smart's perceptions are as good as the information that was given to him. I can see him stubbornly clinging to the justification he was offered at the time...he must have been so angry. So angry at the choices he made that brought him and his family into harms way. So angry that he couldnt stop or change what had happened.

The fault lies with Mitchell and Barzee-clearly as Tricia pointed out.

I often wondered if Elizabeth ever held her parents responsible for their choices that impacted her so much. What does she think about all of this? They all must be very very tired, both the Smarts and the Riccis.

 

[believe09]

Angela was in the room.

Wow-the whole time they questioned him? That is an interesting approach to an interrogation.

 

[RiverRat]

I guess the funny thing about an apology is that restitution usually follows hot on it's heels.

I am not saying that this is what Mrs Ricci is looking for-restitution that is.

But our society works that way. Mr. Smart's perceptions are as good as the information that was given to him. I can see him stubbornly clinging to the justification he was offered at the time...he must have been so angry. So angry at the choices he made that brought him and his family into harms way. So angry that he couldnt stop or change what had happened.

The fault lies with Mitchell and Barzee-clearly as Tricia pointed out.

I often wondered if Elizabeth ever held her parents responsible for their choices that impacted her so much. What does she think about all of this? They all must be very very tired, both the Smarts and the Riccis.

Very Ironic if Ed is more concerned with penny pinching Again IF restitution was an issue, but I trust that Tricia's knowledge of this situation is Greater than ours and that it is not an isue here...IMO it is a Shame that another Innocent Bystander's life is altered all due to Ed's desire to save a dollar.

Your wondering now has me wondering too if Elizabeth's thoughts ever stray to the Fact that it was Her Protector that willingly brought such Evil into her life...I'd bet that if she has, forgiveness flowed freely from this remarkable young woman.

:twocents:
RR

 

[imamaze]

I guess the funny thing about an apology is that restitution usually follows hot on it's heels.

I am not saying that this is what Mrs Ricci is looking for-restitution that is.

But our society works that way. Mr. Smart's perceptions are as good as the information that was given to him. I can see him stubbornly clinging to the justification he was offered at the time...he must have been so angry. So angry at the choices he made that brought him and his family into harms way. So angry that he couldnt stop or change what had happened.

The fault lies with Mitchell and Barzee-clearly as Tricia pointed out.

I often wondered if Elizabeth ever held her parents responsible for their choices that impacted her so much. What does she think about all of this? They all must be very very tired, both the Smarts and the Riccis.

BBM...
I do agree with this believe.

 

[Tricia]

Tricia, I love you and WS and will be as gentle as I can. BBM. IIRC, This is why he ended up back in prison. He also stole from others. He was facing a three strikes situation for being a career criminal. Richard was exactly where he needed to be. As a single woman who has no choice but to hire strangers to work in my house, It scares me to death thinking about a Richard Ricci working in my house. I know Angela loved him, but Richard was what he was. It appears that Richard conned his wife into believing he had changed when he had not. I think it's Richard who owes Angela an apology. ETA: I think it was Richard's lifestyle that caused his death, not the theft of the Smarts possessions.

The Smarts did know about their daughter and her recollection of Imanuel. They took it straight to LE who ignored the Smarts. Because of that Ed was the one who initiated the contact with AMW that led to the info being broadcast and ultimately Elizabeth being found.

IMO, the Smarts do not owe Angela any sort of apology.

(((Hugs) Angela, I hope that you will find peace of mind eventually.

No he was sent back because he violated his parole by drinking beer. Not because he stole anything.

Again, no one gets their parole violated and gets sent back to prison for drinking beer. They get a warning but since the FBI and police decided he was guilty the parole officer violated Ricci to get him behind bars which I would normally agree with had there been any evidence he did something.

Angela knew he stole those things because she was in the room when Richard went and got them and handed them to the police. It was a t-shirt and a bottle of shells. She was there when Richard told the police everything. The only things he denied were taking Elizabeth and getting his car out of the garage and driving it for hundreds of miles the night before.

I am not going by anything Richard said. But what Angela has said all along..

I think everyone is missing the point here. No one wants the Smarts to apologize for anything they did wrong. No one is suggesting they did anything wrong other than Ed Smart's latest comment about Ricci.

What this is about is decency and not twisting the knife in the heart of a widow. What a lot of people have wondered is why the Smarts have not called and apologized for everything she has been through. Reached out to her. She tried to help. She was forthcoming. She went on the talk shows and told the truth.

If someone I know goes through something horrible I tell them how sorry I am for what is happening to them. Not because I am responsible but because it is a compassionate thing to do.

Also if I accused someone of a horrible crime and they didn't do it I would feel terrible even if I did so based on evidence from the police and I would apologize. That's just me.

Why Ed Smart can't reach out to Angela and commiserate with her concerning the fact that the police were focused on the wrong person is something I don't understand. Just reach out and say, "hey I know Richard didn't do this and I"m sorry for all you are going through. Thank you for cooperating with the police."

Remember Angela cooperated fully too. That seems to be forgotten.

When he repeats the mis information he hurts innocent people. Now I do think that is wrong. Why he does it I don't know.

Like I said we will have to agree to disagree I guess.

 

[Melanie]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Ed Smart often hire people "off the street" - like Emmanuel? A very poor practice if you ask me. Look what happened - first he was robbed by Ricci, then his daughter taken. How many other suspects could there have been?

MOO

Mel

 

[Melanie]

I guess the funny thing about an apology is that restitution usually follows hot on it's heels.

I am not saying that this is what Mrs Ricci is looking for-restitution that is.

But our society works that way. Mr. Smart's perceptions are as good as the information that was given to him. I can see him stubbornly clinging to the justification he was offered at the time...he must have been so angry. So angry at the choices he made that brought him and his family into harms way. So angry that he couldnt stop or change what had happened.

The fault lies with Mitchell and Barzee-clearly as Tricia pointed out.

I often wondered if Elizabeth ever held her parents responsible for their choices that impacted her so much. What does she think about all of this? They all must be very very tired, both the Smarts and the Riccis.

BBM - most excellent statement. That's what I was trying to say When you invite people into your home who have bad intentions, you're asking for big trouble.

MOO

Mel

 

[Tricia]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Ed Smart often hire people "off the street" - like Emmanuel? A very poor practice if you ask me. Look what happened - first he was robbed by Ricci, then his daughter taken. How many other suspects could there have been?

MOO

Mel

Yes he did. Literally hired street people.

Looking back at it now it seems so reckless but you have to remember we still hadn't become the safety conscience country we are today. He probably did that for a long time without any major problems.

 

[LisaNY]

I don't understand, is it so hard to be sympathetic? The Smarts went through a tragedy. Can they not express to Angela that they understand the same tragedy affected her & her family also? I am sure they can do this without rendering themselves open to a lawsuit. If I hear of a someone losing a loved one, it is very easy for me to say I am sorry for the pain they are feeling regardless of how I may feel about the life choices of the deceased.

 

[impatientredhead]

A lawsuit was settled and another man was convicted. The county has acknowledged wrongdoing and Mr. Ricci's name is cleared in relation to Elizabeth's case. That is more than 99.9% of wrongfully suspected people get. You are acting like the Smart's owe him something and they don't.

He was a reasonable suspect and it would have been reckless for him to not have been investigated. Should have been detained, I can't tell you. I know a girl was missing and the person you are talking about was a convicted felon with a history of shooting a police officer (which is a pretty violent act whether you are a bad shot or not), has a history of drug use, burglary, and reported MO of entering through the child's bedroom. He wasn't focused on without cause. His wife knowing he is not involved is not the standard by which suspects are cleared.

Whether he was forthcoming about his alcohol use (violation of probation), or offered up the stolen items in the house (another violation of probation) does nothing to negate that he lied to them, stole from them, and had a background that made him a viable suspect. The Smart's didn't arrest him, and they have the right to feel however they feel about him.

He put himself in this position. He violated his probation. How the police handled him was not in their control. Not receiving medical care (and I do think being someone who took a shot at a cop effected how he was treated) was inexcusable, but that is a separate and resolved issue.

The Ricci's paid a horrible price, the pain is undeniable.
Demanding an apology from the actual victims is misguided.
They don't have to like him or think he was a good person.
They don't have to agree with your assessment that he cooperated.

Including the Ricci's in the collateral damage Mitchell and his wife caused with their actions is an entirely defendable position in my view.

Condemning the Smart's for not meeting an outsiders expectations of forgiveness and grace is beyond my understanding.

 

[impatientredhead]

BBM - most excellent statement. That's what I was trying to say When you invite people into your home who have bad intentions, you're asking for big trouble.

MOO

Mel

It has always stunned me that they were bringing people like Mitchell to their home to do work. I know it was under the umbrella of helping people and fit within their faith but it seemed so reckless and dangerous. I am sure they regret that decision every moment of every day.

If you feel strongly about helping in that manner and you have a business you can bring them to manual labor I guess I could go that far with you, but bringing them to your home, around your children, no way no how.

I am sure the Ricci's wish they have never crossed paths or accepted that offer as well.

 

[twinkiesmom]

The Smarts are good Mormons....Mormonism is a separate religion that has its own scriptures, prophets, and revelations not recognized by mainstream Christianity.

This was a horrible situation all around, but Ed Smart wasn't responsible for Richard's death, and I don't think he owes Angela an apology for parroting what the police told him at the time. It would have been a compassionate thing to do to reach out to her, but they chose not to (for whatever reason).

Truly innocent people die every day for the change in their pocket, but Richard died because of that t-shirt and seashells. He looked guiltier than sin at the time that information was released, and the police were all over him, literally and figuratively. They should have taken better care of him in jail if only for the purposes of keeping him alive to find Elizabeth.

I think the only real comfort Angela can take from this situation is that the whole world knows Richard didn't do it.

Hopefully, Ed has learned to hire union labor.

 

[LisaNY]

At the very least, would it be unreasonable to hope that now that their own prayers have been answered that perhaps not repeating mis-information is not too much to ask for? Esp since now Ricci has been totally exonerated of all accusations, and is also deceased??

 

[Tricia]

I'm going totally off topic and therefore will ban myself shortly.

However, now that everyone is worked up I want you to be ready for the next Wall of Shame story. Don't worry. Nothing to do with this case. Like I said off topic and therefore a bannable offense.

The case in the Wall of Shame forum is one we all need to watch closely.

I am putting together the details as we speak but here is the basic info.

A former school principal took pictures of his underage students faces and put them on naked bodies (photoshopped I believe) of 18 year old naked models.

He was arrested for child *advertiser censored* and convicted. An appeals court over turned the conviction agreeing with the defense that this isn't really child *advertiser censored* since the naked body was an 18 year old.

This case is one we need to be on top of. If this guy's case is totally dismissed then that opens the door for pedophiles to take our children's pictures and put them on young looking 18-year-old naked bodies.

Common sense tells you this is child *advertiser censored* but the letter of the law is what matters.

There is more to this so please check back on the Wall of shame forum right here for the update.

Trust me, you will be totally infuriated. It should be up in the next 48 hours.

Off to ban myself. I'll close this thread because I am so far behind in my other work and I don't want to not be able to answer someone who posts.

If you want me to re-open it because you want to post on it just let me know at tgrif@xmission.com

 

[William N]

I believe Elizabeth Smart is very lucky she was found. I think Mitchell would have eventually killed her.

David In TN

 

[peeples]

http://www.fox13now.com/news/local/...chologically-damaged-20110517,0,5031830.story

Lawyers for convicted kidnapper Brian David Mitchell claim Elizabeth Smart is a "survivor" who was not significantly damaged psychologically by her abduction. They make the claim in a new federal court filing, in an effort to persuade a judge to give Mitchell a lighter sentence.