Identified! VA - Annandale, WhtFem 245UFVA, ~60, 'NO CODE, DNR, No Penicillin', Dec'96

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I agree about posting the pic. If you think about it, Namus includes pics of deceased people who committed suicide and Doe links to them sometimes. It is not a particularly gruesome photo (there is blood but she looks peaceful) and I have a hard time believing that someone somewhere isn't missing her. If it was my mother or friend, I would want the photo posted if it meant she could be identified.

Also, you can already find a picture or video still of the original photo by googling Annandale Doe (I believe it's posted many pages ago in this thread), so this is really no different. That said, I can understand Astridxx's reluctance to be the one to post it.

Btw, Poky--weren't you working on seeing if Shirley Sprang is a match? Were we waiting on DNA or something? Wondering if there's an update.
 
This reminds me of the quandary we are faced with as soon as an adult goes missing. They often aren't searched for because police don't want to infringe on the privacy rights of a person who chooses to disappear. They have a "right" to disappear. Sure! They do. But maybe they shouldn't. Because what about the opposite and, inarguably, more important right to simply remain alive and safe, and to be given the full rights to law enforcement investigations and protections in the event that they DON'T "choose" to disappear.

These are opposite and equal possibilities in every missing persons case: Either they CHOSE to disappear or they disappeared AGAINST THEIR WILL.

So the next time a police officer says "I'm sorry, there's nothing we can do; they have the right to disappear if they want to", this should be our response: What if they didn't want to? Do they NOT have the right to be searched for and rescued and to have their life saved IF THEY DIDN'T disappear on purpose?

And if the officer responds by saying something like "we don't know that they need to be rescued", or "there is no evidence to suggest that anything bad happened to them", we can say "Until the police investigate their disappearance and look for any potential evidence that would lead to one conclusion or another, we can't know that they aren't in trouble, and that they don't need to be rescued."

It is far more humane to err on the side of caution, even if it means sometimes wasting some time and dollars, and possibly treading on a person's privacy, than to do nothing and let somebody die who is desperately needing to be saved.

In this case, nobody knows for sure that Annandale Jane did this to herself. There's so much we don't know or understand, and it's so filled with logical contradictions that it makes for an intriguing mystery. But if she DID do this on her own, given all the forethought she had in how she was going to carry it out, what she wanted to have with with her at the time, and what she was going to leave behind, surely she would have realized that she was creating much more of a spectacle and a mystery than she was a simple, lackluster, easily-forgotten death.

If her goal was to "go quietly into that good night" and to slip away from this earth unnoticed, I'd say she epically failed. By leaving her body out in public in such a specific and unusual place, and by leaving behind a typewritten suicide note withholding her identity, as well as by purposely having such a bizarre array of items with her — to me, that's a very loud scream for attention. Or may just the final act of someone who wanted to be remembered.

Or maybe this was something altogether more sinister. I know some solvers believe this is a simple suicide (minus the simple), but I just see so many elements that make much more sense if there was another participant involved in some way.
 
With 215 rule-outs already I have to wonder what's holding up the process on Shirley. I'm beginning to think that her DNA "got lost in the mail", or something. I haven't spoken with Detective Colburn in a while. I should give him a call and see if he's heard anything.

I believe whole-heartedly that this Jane Doe is actually Shirley Sprang. Though, even if I'm right, that doesn't solve the mystery for me. I can't seem to make any logical sense out of this case — why she would do the things she did. Still, I keep thinking that the answer must be out there somewhere. And I am going to keep looking.

I don't know if I told you that I got a message from Shirley's nephew. It only deepened the mystery for me. He acknowledged that Shirley's brother, H, is his father. But he told me that his Aunt Shirley had died a long time ago. That's all he said. He didn't mention anything about her being missing.

Isn't that kind of odd? I mean, even the detective in her home state thinks she's still missing. Perhaps the nephew just didn't want to go into detail about a missing family member with a stranger. Or maybe he just told me what he had been told. It could also be that they had her declared dead years ago and are just assuming that she is. It's even possible that they know she is deceased as I believe Final Exit encourages the inclusion of family members in that decision.

The one other thought that crossed my mind was that a family member could have killed her. And if that's the case I doubt they would welcome my meddling. I did message him a second time but he didn't respond so I left it alone.

I still find it somewhat odd, though. Even if this Jane Doe isn't Shirley...what did happen to Shirley Sprang?



Btw, Poky--weren't you working on seeing if Shirley Sprang is a match? Were we waiting on DNA or something? Wondering if there's an update.
 
This reminds me of the quandary we are faced with as soon as an adult goes missing. They often aren't searched for because police don't want to infringe on the privacy rights of a person who chooses to disappear. They have a "right" to disappear. Sure! They do. But maybe they shouldn't.

I think that this leads to a dangerous slippery slope, though. There are many situations, such as in cases of abuse, where someone needs to "disappear." Probably many more cases of people in danger from those they know and therefore need to get away from, then there are cases of people falling prey to strangers. We all know the statistics about domestic violence/date rape vs. stranger crime. We hear more about the "being preyed on by strangers" here on WebSleuths, because those are the cases with some element of "mystery" to them. But don't let that skew the big picture about the realities of violence and who you're in most danger from.

In this case, nobody knows for sure that Annandale Jane did this to herself. There's so much we don't know or understand, and it's so filled with logical contradictions that it makes for an intriguing mystery. But if she DID do this on her own, given all the forethought she had in how she was going to carry it out, what she wanted to have with with her at the time, and what she was going to leave behind, surely she would have realized that she was creating much more of a spectacle and a mystery than she was a simple, lackluster, easily-forgotten death.

If her goal was to "go quietly into that good night" and to slip away from this earth unnoticed, I'd say she epically failed. By leaving her body out in public in such a specific and unusual place, and by leaving behind a typewritten suicide note withholding her identity, as well as by purposely having such a bizarre array of items with her — to me, that's a very loud scream for attention. Or may just the final act of someone who wanted to be remembered.

Or maybe this was something altogether more sinister. I know some solvers believe this is a simple suicide (minus the simple), but I just see so many elements that make much more sense if there was another participant involved in some way.

Honestly, I think it's pretty clear that she did this to herself. I don't see a loud scream for attention at all--she tried to slip away as quiet and unidentified as possible. I mean, it's not like you can kill yourself and then dismember and burn your own body--you commit suicide, you're going to leave your remains behind to be found one day. Leaving your body in a cemetery, a repository for the dead, is about as practical and quiet as you can get on that matter. If she wanted to make a last-bid scream for attention, she would have killed herself in front of a kindergarten or at the door of the courthouse to be found the next morning.

Most people aren't interested in true crime like we are. Most people don't read WebSleuths. It probably didn't occur to her that anyone would be interested, or discussing this, so many years later. And remember, this was back in 1996, when things like popular use of the internet were in their infancy. And she was an older woman, so probably not as likely to be on the cutting edge of where internet technology was going. I was in grad school in 1996, and used the computer and e-mail all the time, and still, I never once thought, "I better not do X, because 20 years from now someone could be talking about it on an internet forum somewhere, because everyone's everything being plastered online is where we're headed." Most likely she thought that there might be a small "body found in cemetery" blurb in the local paper, and then everyone would go on to the next piece of news, and that would be it. (And given her sense of humor with the Mel Brooks tape, maybe "Body found in cemetery, ha ha," was her little joke. That's the only bit of any "attention" bid I see here.)

I don't see anything particularly bizarre about her array of items, either. If you looked in anyone's car, or purse, or pockets, at any given time, the array of articles might seem odd to an outsider. All of us have items that have personal meaning for us but look odd or worthless to someone else.

She used a method that would ensure she was dead. She left DNR instructions, and instructions on what to do with her body after death. She left payment for the disposal of her body. She left her body where someone not easily spooked by death and dead bodies would find her. Short of tattooing "Yes, I committed suicide" on her forehead, I don't see what else she could have done to let the finders know that she was choosing to end her own life.

If she was important enough, or a threat enough, for someone to go want to kill her...why on earth go through all the elaborate charade and staging? Why take the chance of leaving fingerprints on something? If you don't want her identified, why not remove her hands and head and dispose of them elsewhere? Why leave $50 bills on her body? Why not use that $50 to buy some concrete blocks to tie to the body and throw her in the ocean or a river so she wouldn't be found? If there's some advantage to having someone declared dead by suicide, like inheritance or insurance or something, the body would need to be officially identified. I mean, if some outside party went to this extent to stage an elaborate scene on purpose, that would mean that Annandale Jane was as historically and politically important as the last Tsar's family, or as criminally connected and prominent as Al Capone. And in either of those cases, she wouldn't be a UID to LE.

Sometimes people kill themselves in weird ways. And while we all love a tangled and intriguing mystery, I just don't think it helps to see a conspiracy in every lonely depressed person who commit suicide. Horses, not zebras--
 
^Great post, Mouse.

[As a side note, in relation to her selection of items, currently in my purse you'd find several foreign banknotes - some for places I've never been - and contact details for a random man in New York City .. I'm sure that could lead to lots of discussion and speculation if I died today, but in reality I could explain within seconds why it all means absolutely nothing]
 
Thanks for the update, Poky. Very strange!

I agree with Mouse that this was a suicide. In fact, it is almost textbook, literally--right from Final Exit. Cemeteries are not uncommon suicide sites. The amount of effort it would take by a murderer to stage this is as a suicide is over the top, IMO. To me, Annandale Doe was a suicidal woman who believed that no one would care if she died, wanted to spare family from knowing how she died, etc.
 
As to the morgue photo, if my family member were missing, it might be painful for me to see their picture and to know that others saw it, but on the other hand it would let me know what happened to my loved one if the picture led to their identification. It's hard to say how a family member might feel knowing their loved one's morgue photo was online like this. Some might be relieved to know what happened to the person and to be able to retrieve remains. Some might feel it just adds to their pain. For me, if I were missing a loved one, if the picture led to solving the mystery I think I would be ok with that. If she were my mom or sister or grandmother at least I would know she went out on her own terms, that nobody kidnapped and murdered or tortured her.
 
I have a copy of the close-up too. I've never given it to anybody else. After seeing it I felt like the sketch is close enough that anybody who knew her would recognize her, without the distress of the obvious signs of death.

I forgot to say -- when I received the picture, it was for the specific picture of doing a reconstruction back when I was taking a forensics class. I was specifically told I couldn't use it for any other purpose.
 
First of all, mouse, "horses not zebras" is the very kind of small-minded thinking that often prevents cases from being solved. If this case was as simple as you are making it sound, then it would likely be solved already. And to minimize somebody else's contribution is both petty and unkind. Also, to insinuate that I see "a conspiracy in every lonely depressed person who commits suicide" -- where do you even get that from? You and I have never even worked on another case together so I don't know how you could make such a claim. And even if we had, I don't believe that I suspect anything like this in any of my other cases. There is just a lot of questionable evidence here that makes at least as much sense, if not more, under the theory of murder than it does under suicide.

For example: why might the suicide note be typed? Because a killer would not want his handwriting to be detected. Who commonly benefits by having no autopsy performed? A killer. Who typically wants to make sure the remains are cremated: the killer. Who wouldn't want her name (identity) to be known? A killer. Because once she was identified it could lead right back to him. Who would benefit if the authorities believed this to be a suicide? A killer. People who commit suicide rarely think about this. Or rarely even care. And why have cash on-hand rather than a check? Okay, maybe she's just a really thoughtful lonely suicidal person who doesn't want to make any trouble out of her death...but most depressed, suicidal people don't plan ahead to have cash on their bodies so that they can be cremated before burial. And most people don't want to depart this world alone. Most of us want to leave a legacy...something to show that we were here. Plus...how did she get to the cemetery? Why was there no vehicle left behind?

This whole thing was planned, and measures were taken to conceal her identity, to prevent any autopsy findings, to have the body reduced to ashes as quickly as possible, and to lead the police into classifying this as a suicide. Who usually benefits from a cover-up of these circumstances? A killer. Yes, it could possibly be that she did all these things in accordance with a Final Exit Suicide, but the simplest, most common answer to questions like these is that someone is trying to conceal the details of this death. Killers often do that. Suicide victims rarely do that. Concealment happens WAY more often in homicides than in suicides. So it would be absurd to ignore such a possibility and to accept the other more remote circumstance as being absolute truth.

What a disservice we would be doing to the case (and to Jane) if we refused to consider other possibilities. Nor am I alone in wondering these things about Annandale Doe. And since you don't know what happened that day any more than I do, you are merely assuming that she was lonely, was depressed and committed suicide. I'm not going to refrain from posting my thoughts on something simply because not everybody believes the same. Nobody here should be telling another person that their contribution is "not helping". This a place intended for people to explore theories. It is NOT intended as a place for peoples' voices to be silenced. So if I have a different opinion than you have that doesn't mean that I should keep it to myself and say nothing. I have as much right to post what I believe as any other member here does...EVEN if they disagree with my logic, or I, with theirs.
 
Leaving money to pay for burial/cremation expenses or for the hotel room or whatever is fairly common among suicides who choose to remain unidentified. I don't know what percentage, but we have several cases here on WS.
 
As to the slippery slope comment: I wasn't being literal. I was just trying to say that cops aren't searching for missing persons most times because they are classifying most of them as runaways or intentionally absent individuals. Then they discover too late that there may have been foul play. It happens all the time. Just happened in our tiny town last year. Most cases, by the time they are missing they are probably already dead. But in some cases the people are hoping and praying to be saved. Only nobody comes to help them because the authorities put peoples' rights to privacy (which is usually why they think they left) ahead of their right to live. But people tend not to care quite so much about their privacy when they're fighting just to stay alive. And many times, they didn't leave on their own, anyway; they were taken against their will. Just saying that those people should have rights too.

I think that this leads to a dangerous slippery slope, though. There are many situations, such as in cases of abuse, where someone needs to "disappear." Probably many more cases of people in danger from those they know and therefore need to get away from, then there are cases of people falling prey to strangers. We all know the statistics about domestic violence/date rape vs. stranger crime. We hear more about the "being preyed on by strangers" here on WebSleuths, because those are the cases with some element of "mystery" to them. But don't let that skew the big picture about the realities of violence and who you're in most danger from.



Honestly, I think it's pretty clear that she did this to herself. I don't see a loud scream for attention at all--she tried to slip away as quiet and unidentified as possible. I mean, it's not like you can kill yourself and then dismember and burn your own body--you commit suicide, you're going to leave your remains behind to be found one day. Leaving your body in a cemetery, a repository for the dead, is about as practical and quiet as you can get on that matter. If she wanted to make a last-bid scream for attention, she would have killed herself in front of a kindergarten or at the door of the courthouse to be found the next morning.

Most people aren't interested in true crime like we are. Most people don't read WebSleuths. It probably didn't occur to her that anyone would be interested, or discussing this, so many years later. And remember, this was back in 1996, when things like popular use of the internet were in their infancy. And she was an older woman, so probably not as likely to be on the cutting edge of where internet technology was going. I was in grad school in 1996, and used the computer and e-mail all the time, and still, I never once thought, "I better not do X, because 20 years from now someone could be talking about it on an internet forum somewhere, because everyone's everything being plastered online is where we're headed." Most likely she thought that there might be a small "body found in cemetery" blurb in the local paper, and then everyone would go on to the next piece of news, and that would be it. (And given her sense of humor with the Mel Brooks tape, maybe "Body found in cemetery, ha ha," was her little joke. That's the only bit of any "attention" bid I see here.)

I don't see anything particularly bizarre about her array of items, either. If you looked in anyone's car, or purse, or pockets, at any given time, the array of articles might seem odd to an outsider. All of us have items that have personal meaning for us but look odd or worthless to someone else.

She used a method that would ensure she was dead. She left DNR instructions, and instructions on what to do with her body after death. She left payment for the disposal of her body. She left her body where someone not easily spooked by death and dead bodies would find her. Short of tattooing "Yes, I committed suicide" on her forehead, I don't see what else she could have done to let the finders know that she was choosing to end her own life.

If she was important enough, or a threat enough, for someone to go want to kill her...why on earth go through all the elaborate charade and staging? Why take the chance of leaving fingerprints on something? If you don't want her identified, why not remove her hands and head and dispose of them elsewhere? Why leave $50 bills on her body? Why not use that $50 to buy some concrete blocks to tie to the body and throw her in the ocean or a river so she wouldn't be found? If there's some advantage to having someone declared dead by suicide, like inheritance or insurance or something, the body would need to be officially identified. I mean, if some outside party went to this extent to stage an elaborate scene on purpose, that would mean that Annandale Jane was as historically and politically important as the last Tsar's family, or as criminally connected and prominent as Al Capone. And in either of those cases, she wouldn't be a UID to LE.

Sometimes people kill themselves in weird ways. And while we all love a tangled and intriguing mystery, I just don't think it helps to see a conspiracy in every lonely depressed person who commit suicide. Horses, not zebras--
 
I know there are some. There's always a percentage of people who fit into even the most uncommon and unlikely of categories. I imagine that the overall percentage of people who commit suicide anonymously is quite low in the overall category of suicides. But I guess what I'm saying is that when a person's body is left behind and they intentionally withhold their identity and leave only a cryptic communication behind, then how do you KNOW (for sure) that the communication left behind is actually from them?

You are referring to these cases as "suicides who CHOOSE to remain unidentified". But we don't know which cases are truly suicides and which might not be. So some of those that you are alluding to as examples might also be homicides. They may have been staged to look like suicides. I'm not saying that ANY of them ARE homicides for sure...just that we shouldn't really rule the possibility out because a homicide successfully staged to look like a suicide will look just like a suicide. I know there have been a lot of cases that were originally declared suicide that were later determined to be homicides.

I just saw one today where a woman fell off a cliff. Actually, this one was deemed an accident but it had actually been staged to look like an accident when, in fact, the husband had killed her. It's the same premise. All I'm trying to say is that we shouldn't assume something is X simply because it looks like X. Sometimes somebody else wants it to look like X.

Having people with different viewpoints is a great thing. If we all thought exactly the same way we wouldn't really need to confer. I just don't think it's right -- or beneficial -- for anyone to be told that they shouldn't post their belief (especially on a discussion board).

Leaving money to pay for burial/cremation expenses or for the hotel room or whatever is fairly common among suicides who choose to remain unidentified. I don't know what percentage, but we have several cases here on WS.
 
To be fair, I don't think anyone was saying not to post your homicide theories here, just that the odds are quite low that this was anything other than a suicide. The "pushing a spouse off a cliff" comparison isn't really accurate. That only requires literally pushing a person, vs. forcing someone to swallow drugs, placing them in a cemetery, etc. I'm not saying it's impossible or that you're not entitled to that belief, only that it is highly unlikely. In any case, I'm not sure it matters how she died, as we are no closer to learning her true identity.
 
Oh! Well, I must have misunderstood the intent then. I was quite offended by mouse's comment:

"Sometimes people kill themselves in weird ways. And while we all love a tangled and intriguing mystery, I just don't think it helps to see a conspiracy in every lonely depressed person who commits suicide. Horses, not zebras."

I don't think ANYBODY needs to be telling other people how to think. Yes, I am referring to the "Horses, not zebras" text. And I think someone accusing someone else of "seeing conspiracies in every lonely depressed person who commits suicide" is also offensive. First, who are they to declare in any absolute terms that Annandale Doe WAS a "lonely, depressed person who committed suicide?". NOBODY knows this for sure. That's my whole point. Second, where does she get her information when she claims that I am seeing conspiracies in "EVERY lonely, depressed" suicidal person? I don't believe I've ever worked another case where this is the assumed theory. But even if I have, I would have every right to think and post whatever theories I happened to believe. Just as everybody else has that right. Wouldn't everyone agree that we should ALL have that same right?

One more thing, five. You took my example about the accident on the cliff entirely out of context. I was not in any way COMPARING the two deaths. I was merely trying to show that a death could look like an accident and everybody could believe it WAS an accident, despite the truth being that it was actually a homicide. The same can happen with a suicide. Many times deaths have been declared a suicide and people have believed it for years only to find out ultimately that it really was a murder.

We see victims of homicide all the time in researching on the web. Unfortunately, murder is not all that uncommon. Sometimes it really IS a zebra. So if everyone is busy looking ONLY for horses then they may never discover the truth. I'm just saying that we shouldn't rule ANYTHING out if it still exists as a possibility, regardless of how remote some people may believe it to be.

Anyway, I would really like to see us going forward from here and letting EVERYBODY post whatever theories they happen to believe. If anyone disagrees with someone else's theory they can respond by commenting on why they believe otherwise. Does that sound fair? I think that sounds very fair. And isn't that how this site was intended to be used?


To be fair, I don't think anyone was saying not to post your homicide theories here, just that the odds are quite low that this was anything other than a suicide. The "pushing a spouse off a cliff" comparison isn't really accurate. That only requires literally pushing a person, vs. forcing someone to swallow drugs, placing them in a cemetery, etc. I'm not saying it's impossible or that you're not entitled to that belief, only that it is highly unlikely. In any case, I'm not sure it matters how she died, as we are no closer to learning her true identity.
 
Sorry, Mouse. I didn't see part of your message last time. I read the first few paragraphs and then must have jumped to the last one.

I'll gladly answer your questions if you want but I'll just be sharing my point of view on them, which seems to vary greatly from yours. I don't want to start a war here. I just want to be able to post my thoughts and theories on here like everybody else and be able to interact without being chastised or berated for having a different opinion. I don't know that we are going to necessarily agree with each other's point of view but we don't have to. Who says we have to agree on everything? We have multiple brains working on this and those multiple brains think differently. That's the way it should be. If we all believed the same things then we wouldn't benefit from multiple people working on it.

I'm not saying that I necessarily believe that this is a murder. I'm just not willing to rule it out when it remains a possibility. Maybe it's not a probability, I don't know. But it's definitely still a possibility. I'm considering the suicide angle just like everybody else is. I just haven't limited myself to that one belief. My method of processing information like this is to remain open to any possibility and to research all of them.

Let's all just agree to let everybody post their individual theories and opinions without making negative comments about what they post. We can save the debate for the content of the posts by explaining why we believe what we believe, and by asking others why they believe certain things.


I think that this leads to a dangerous slippery slope, though. There are many situations, such as in cases of abuse, where someone needs to "disappear." Probably many more cases of people in danger from those they know and therefore need to get away from, then there are cases of people falling prey to strangers. We all know the statistics about domestic violence/date rape vs. stranger crime. We hear more about the "being preyed on by strangers" here on WebSleuths, because those are the cases with some element of "mystery" to them. But don't let that skew the big picture about the realities of violence and who you're in most danger from.

Honestly, I think it's pretty clear that she did this to herself. I don't see a loud scream for attention at all--she tried to slip away as quiet and unidentified as possible. I mean, it's not like you can kill yourself and then dismember and burn your own body--you commit suicide, you're going to leave your remains behind to be found one day. Leaving your body in a cemetery, a repository for the dead, is about as practical and quiet as you can get on that matter. If she wanted to make a last-bid scream for attention, she would have killed herself in front of a kindergarten or at the door of the courthouse to be found the next morning. \
\
Most people aren't interested in true crime like we are. Most people don't read WebSleuths. It probably didn't occur to her that anyone would be interested, or discussing this, so many years later. And remember, this was back in 1996, when things like popular use of the internet were in their infancy. And she was an older woman, so probably not as likely to be on the cutting edge of where internet technology was going. I was in grad school in 1996, and used the computer and e-mail all the time, and still, I never once thought, "I better not do X, because 20 years from now someone could be talking about it on an internet forum somewhere, because everyone's everything being plastered online is where we're headed." Most likely she thought that there might be a small "body found in cemetery" blurb in the local paper, and then everyone would go on to the next piece of news, and that would be it. (And given her sense of humor with the Mel Brooks tape, maybe "Body found in cemetery, ha ha," was her little joke. That's the only bit of any "attention" bid I see here.)\
\
I don't see anything particularly bizarre about her array of items, either. If you looked in anyone's car, or purse, or pockets, at any given time, the array of articles might seem odd to an outsider. All of us have items that have personal meaning for us but look odd or worthless to someone else. \
\
She used a method that would ensure she was dead. She left DNR instructions, and instructions on what to do with her body after death. She left payment for the disposal of her body. She left her body where someone not easily spooked by death and dead bodies would find her. Short of tattooing "Yes, I committed suicide" on her forehead, I don't see what else she could have done to let the finders know that she was choosing to end her own life. \
\
If she was important enough, or a threat enough, for someone to go want to kill her...why on earth go through all the elaborate charade and staging? Why take the chance of leaving fingerprints on something? If you don't want her identified, why not remove her hands and head and dispose of them elsewhere? Why leave $50 bills on her body? Why not use that $50 to buy some concrete blocks to tie to the body and throw her in the ocean or a river so she wouldn't be found? If there's some advantage to having someone declared dead by suicide, like inheritance or insurance or something, the body would need to be officially identified. I mean, if some outside party went to this extent to stage an elaborate scene on purpose, that would mean that Annandale Jane was as historically and politically important as the last Tsar's family, or as criminally connected and prominent as Al Capone. And in either of those cases, she wouldn't be a UID to LE.\
\
Sometimes people kill themselves in weird ways. And while we all love a tangled and intriguing mystery, I just don't think it helps to see a conspiracy in every lonely depressed person who commit suicide. Horses, not zebras--
 
Anyway, I would really like to see us going forward from here and letting EVERYBODY post whatever theories they happen to believe. If anyone disagrees with someone else's theory they can respond by commenting on why they believe otherwise. Does that sound fair? I think that sounds very fair. And isn't that how this site was intended to be used?

Actually, I did post multiple reasons why I believe this was a suicide up thread, and that's what I got from most of Mouse's post too--reasons why s/he thinks this isn't a homicide. No one is telling you what to believe or not to believe (or post). I'm simply disagreeing with you on why I think this poor woman is dead. I'm sure we can agree to disagree on her cause of death and still work together to get her her name back.
 
How about a thread in the cold case area? Whether the suicide was faked is not relevant to trying to give her a name and find her loved ones.
 
Well, the reason I'm pursuing the various methods of death is because if this would turn out to be a homicide then the most likely suspect would be a family member or acquaintance which COULD potentially lead us to the identity of Jane Doe.

How about a thread in the cold case area? Whether the suicide was faked is not relevant to trying to give her a name and find her loved ones.
 
01502_Images_4_S.jpg

Possible? Cannot recall if Dianne Roy has previously been suggested.

http://www.missingadults.ca/viewMAc...d=wkruripl&&CurCase=249&StartAt=246&EndAt=272

"ROY, Carole Dianne
Case : ON-MF-1996-10-01502
Date Of Disappearance : 01 October 1996
Additional Images
Location Of Disappearance : Carleton Place, Ontario
Age At Disappearance : 43 years
Height (estimate) : 165 cm (5'4")
Weight (estimate) : 68 - 79 kg (149 - 174 lbs)
Hair Colour : Brown
– brown with grey, worn short
Eye Colour : Brown
Gender : Female
Race : Caucasian
Dental Information :
Teeth – partial dentures
Medical Information :
Vision – blind in left eye
Glasses – wears thick large glasses
Notable Identifiers :
Arm – paralyzed; unable to use
Complexion – light/fair"
 
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