VA - Bethany Stephens, 21, mauled to death by her 2 dogs, Dec 2017

[jamicat]

I have a question. In the past few years, even more in the past week or so, I've been studying pitbulls, pitbull attacks, and fatalities by pitbull. Now, my question is this: Why are pitbull advocates so blinded to the deadly potential of these dogs? What would cause those in charge of rescues/shelters to be so blinded that they would lie or withhold information on a dog's aggression history, and keep on offering it for adoption despite being told by staff of the dog's potential for aggression? What is it inside of these people that puts a dog before the safety of a human being? I am really perplexed.

Here's an article that reiterated what I've read over and over, but somehow it hit me harder today. It starts out with the lady in Phoenix killed by an Akita a few days ago, but it continues. Please hit the "read more", cause there's a lot more to read.
http://www.animals24-7.org/2017/12/...-record-5th-fatality-of-2017-by-shelter-dogs/

I would really like to know the answer to my question, if anyone has an answer.

People often cannot see past their own circles they have drawn. They have adorable, loving, docile, well behaved pit bulls and simply cannot see their dogs going rogue. The very idea that their much loved dog is being so maligned and cast as a killer, banned and feared, infuriated them because that dog has become part of their family, and those aspersions are directed to their own. For a number of people, their dogs are like their children. They love them very much.

Also, many Pitbull owners have never personally known of these dogs attacking people. Though the pit mixes dominate in killings and serious bites, the incidents are still relatively rare, given the number of pit bulls pets there are. So these incidents do not sink into the consciousness of many owners. Also, they may know other breeds that are snappers or otherwise not safe to be let loose. That their dog, a pit mix is deemed dangerous while those other dogs are not falls them.

Also, there is the fact that a preponderance of pit bulls and pit mixes are often housed and treated suboptimally. If you look up and read about most of the dog killings, it’s diffi not to notice that a large number of them involve some unsavory and unsafe scenarios. Such as someone owning a lot of dogs. Drug dealing. Dogs that have already shown that they bite people. People who are not caring for their dogs properly. The truth of the matter is that most pit bulls raised in loving homes well cared for, are not problem dogs. They do not attack people.

Also, the Pitbull Mix statistics do not always make sense. Pit bulls and pit mixes are undercounted because a disproportionate number of them are not registered. They fly under the radar. Anyone who has even taken a cursory look st the number of dogs in our town would recognize that most of the pits not licensed. I see numbers like Pits are 6% of the dog population but inflict more than half of the fatal dog bites. But I also know that more than half the dogs in this country are mutts and Pit mixes are the most prevalent mix. Go into a number of shelters and you can get a good idea what % of the mutts have in them.

My cousin owns a huge American bull dog mix. Considered a pit mix. The dog has grown old as her kids have grown up and you could not ask for a cuter dog. He slept with the kids and adored them. The sentiment was returned in full by the family. They cannot accept the info that their type of dog is more likely to cause great damages than other dogs.

 

[Deleted member 158085]

Some good information from the Canine Journal BBM

Dog Bite Statistics

Approximately*4.5 million dog bites*occur each year

Dogs that bite the most:

Chihuahua
Bulldog
Pit Bull
German Shepherd
Australian Shepherd
Lhasa Apso
Jack Russell Terrier
Cocker Spaniel
Bull Terrier
Pekingese
Papillion

80% of dog bites*cause no injury at all or only minor injuries that do not require medial attention

30+ breeds of dogs and mixes are incorrectly identified as “pit*bulls” in dog bite incidents, attributing the pit bull with an unfair and overstated number of incidents*(*pit bull is not technically a dog breed; breeds that are commonly referred to as pit bulls in the U.S. are American Staffordshire Terrier, American Pit Bull Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and American Bully)

Most dog bites involve dogs who are*not spayed or neutered

Fatal Dog Attacks*states that 25% of fatal attacks were inflicted by chained dogs of many different breeds

https://www.caninejournal.com/dog-bite-statistics/

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[Jennifer17]

In my country, dog rescues and pounds will not allow males between the ages of 18 (the legal age to be able to adopt a dog in your own name) and 25, because the same dogs belonging to these owners kept coming back to them, time after time.

 

[Jennifer17]

Some good information from the Canine Journal BBM

Dog Bite Statistics

Approximately*4.5 million dog bites*occur each year

Dogs that bite the most:

Chihuahua
Bulldog
Pit Bull
German Shepherd
Australian Shepherd
Lhasa Apso
Jack Russell Terrier
Cocker Spaniel
Bull Terrier
Pekingese
Papillion

80% of dog bites*cause no injury at all or only minor injuries that do not require medial attention

30+ breeds of dogs and mixes are incorrectly identified as “pit*bulls” in dog bite incidents, attributing the pit bull with an unfair and overstated number of incidents*(*pit bull is not technically a dog breed; breeds that are commonly referred to as pit bulls in the U.S. are American Staffordshire Terrier, American Pit Bull Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and American Bully)

Most dog bites involve dogs who are*not spayed or neutered

Fatal Dog Attacks*states that 25% of fatal attacks were inflicted by chained dogs of many different breeds

https://www.caninejournal.com/dog-bite-statistics/

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Yes, but they are bites, not attacks. In my country where Australian Shepherds and Border Collies are the largest group of biters, it is finger bites from dogs that bring the ball or the stick back, and lay it at your feet then go to grab it again for a tug of war when you go to pick it up to throw it again. I had one these dogs who would try to grab the stick or ball back and nip my fingers, in the process. He wasn't trying to bite me, just grab the stick or the ball.

 

[Deleted member 158085]

Here's the Wikipedia article I was talking about. It covers all the major studies on dog bite fatalities. I'll include some information from a couple of them, but I encourage those of you relying on dogbites website to read this in its entirety because these are scientific studies and more reliable and informative.

BBM

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States?wprov=sfla1

From:
Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association: 2000–2009

"The most recent study of the epidemiology of fatal dog bites in the United States was published in the Journal of the*American Veterinary Medical Associationin 2013.*While earlier studies were based on television and newspaper reports, this was the first study to be based on law-enforcement reports, animal control reports, and investigator statements. It identified preventable factors in the fatal incidents. They found that the most common contributing factors were: absence of an able-bodied person to intervene, no familiar relationship of victims with dogs, owner failure to neuter dogs, compromised ability of victims to interact appropriately with dogs (e.g. mental disabilities), dogs kept isolated from regular positive human interactions versus family dogs (e.g. dogs kept chained in backyards), owners' prior mismanagement of dogs, and owners' history of abuse or neglect of dogs. Furthermore, they found that in 80% of the incidents, 4 or more of the above factors co-occurred.

The authors found that in a significant number of DBRFs there was either a conflict between different media sources reporting breed and/or a conflict between media and animal control reports relative to the reporting of breed. For 401 dogs described in various media accounts of DBRFs, media sources reported conflicting breed attributions for 124 of the dogs (30.9%); and where there were media reports and an animal control report (346 dogs), there were conflicting breed attributions for 139 dogs (40.2%)

According to this study, reliable verification of the breed of dog was only possible in 18% of incidents."

From:
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention: 1979–1998

"The*Centers for Disease Control and Prevention*(CDC) published a study in 2000 on dog bite-related fatalities (DBRF) that covered the years 1979–1998. The report concluded that relying on media coverage of dog-bite-related fatalities presents a biased view of the dogs involved. They stated that media reports are likely to only cover about 74% of the actual incidents and that dog attacks involving certain breeds may be more likely to receive media coverage. They also reported that since breed identification is difficult and subjective, attacks may be more likely to be 'ascribed to breeds with a reputation for aggression'.

The study found reports of 327 people killed by dogs over the 20-year period. Some breed information was available for 238 (73%) of the fatalities. Of 227 incidents with relevant data, 133 (58%) were unrestrained dogs and on the owners' property; 55 (24%) were loose off the owners' property; 38 (17%) were restrained dogs on their owners' property; and only one (less than 1%) was restrained off the owners' property."

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[Deleted member 158085]

Yes, but they are bites, not attacks. In my country where Australian Shepherds and Border Collies are the largest group of biters, it is finger bites from dogs that bring the ball or the stick back, and lay it at your feet then go to grab it again for a tug of war when you go to pick it up to throw it again. I had one these dogs who would try to grab the stick or ball back and nip my fingers, in the process. He wasn't trying to bite me, just grab the stick or the ball.

There was some information in that post about fatal attacks :

"Fatal Dog Attacks*states that 25% of fatal attacks were inflicted by chained dogs of many different breeds."

But I followed up with a post strictly on fatal attacks as well.

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[rsd1200]

People often cannot see past their own circles they have drawn. They have adorable, loving, docile, well behaved pit bulls and simply cannot see their dogs going rogue. The very idea that their much loved dog is being so maligned and cast as a killer, banned and feared, infuriated them because that dog has become part of their family, and those aspersions are directed to their own. For a number of people, their dogs are like their children. They love them very much.

Also, many Pitbull owners have never personally known of these dogs attacking people. Though the pit mixes dominate in killings and serious bites, the incidents are still relatively rare, given the number of pit bulls pets there are. So these incidents do not sink into the consciousness of many owners. Also, they may know other breeds that are snappers or otherwise not safe to be let loose. That their dog, a pit mix is deemed dangerous while those other dogs are not falls them.

Also, there is the fact that a preponderance of pit bulls and pit mixes are often housed and treated suboptimally. If you look up and read about most of the dog killings, it’s diffi not to notice that a large number of them involve some unsavory and unsafe scenarios. Such as someone owning a lot of dogs. Drug dealing. Dogs that have already shown that they bite people. People who are not caring for their dogs properly. The truth of the matter is that most pit bulls raised in loving homes well cared for, are not problem dogs. They do not attack people.

Also, the Pitbull Mix statistics do not always make sense. Pit bulls and pit mixes are undercounted because a disproportionate number of them are not registered. They fly under the radar. Anyone who has even taken a cursory look st the number of dogs in our town would recognize that most of the pits not licensed. I see numbers like Pits are 6% of the dog population but inflict more than half of the fatal dog bites. But I also know that more than half the dogs in this country are mutts and Pit mixes are the most prevalent mix. Go into a number of shelters and you can get a good idea what % of the mutts have in them.

My cousin owns a huge American bull dog mix. Considered a pit mix. The dog has grown old as her kids have grown up and you could not ask for a cuter dog. He slept with the kids and adored them. The sentiment was returned in full by the family. They cannot accept the info that their type of dog is more likely to cause great damages than other dogs.

I'm a Rottie owner/lover as most know by now, but, my preferred breed is 2nd in attacks but just because I've had two of the most sweet natured dogs, to my family, and friends who have come to my home, I don't discount the fact that she could do some serious damage if she decided to do so. She is a working dog. While she is an indoor dog, she is also an outdoor dog. She keeps varmints out of our garden, and people from pulling onto the farm and hanging out. She's dark as night, and quiet so they'd not see her til she's there and most everyone knows we have her. She looks like a tank (she is at the very largest end of the spectrum that a female can get, within standard). I can usually look at a Rottie or a Rottie mix and tell what they are. Same with a GSD (we've had one of those, too). Same with my Cairns that I love so well. I can also usually tell a bully breed/or mix when I see one. I dearly love dogs and would have been heartbroken if our little childhood, pit mix, would have had to have been put down.

I can reach in my dog's mouth and take something from her. No problem. I started training when she was a pup though. I don't get my hackles raised when I see/hear the "bad dog" stats on Rotts, or Pits, and I've lived with both. The 30 pound pit was hell on wheels, I've no problem admitting it, but we still loved that little dog dearly. He was the only pet that my parents placed a marker on the grave, and we all shed a tear, or more, over the little guy's passing.

 

[neesaki]

Yes, you do bring up a touchy issue. Are animals as important or more important than human beings, especially humans who may need help? I get that there are people who prefer animals to other people for the unconditional love/affection/acceptance animals may give. And I do believe that part of being a decent human being is to care responsibly for animals. But I also believe that there is a balance that is weighted more toward the relative value of people. Each of us can decide where to expend our energy and resources. But if push comes to shove, I would have to choose a human over an animal if I can’t help both. I would be willing to give my life for another person, but not for an animal. And I would never have any animal that is dangerous to people, thinking I can rehabilitate that animal. I certainly hope that poor dog was not re-homed to another person who may have wanted to hone their rehabilitation skills.

All JMO. No judgment of others’ choices.

Hey Lilibet :wave: I agree with most of what you're saying. I think part of the problem is that there are a lot of bad people in the world, as we all too often see on these threads. On the opposite end of that spectrum, animals are for the most part seen as innocent, incapable of sin, and we are put here as being responsible for looking over them and protecting them. After children I suppose... The song "Bless the Beasts and the Children" comes to mind. I do think that maybe some see people as potentially "bad" or "evil"... Could this be why some may choose animals over people? I think so.

Part of that could stem from children being emotionally and / or physically abused by those they should have been able to trust. Thus they learn it isn't safe to trust people, but they can trust their dog who offers unconditional love and affection, and wouldn't hurt a hair on their head. So they are trustworthy, people are not.
It's a shame, but I think it's all too often the case. jmo

I also would never attempt to rehabilitate an animal who was aggressive or dangerous. It's an exercise in futility and there are so many precious, worthy animals out there to invest one's time in helping or saving who just want someone to love and to love them. jmo

 

[Lilibet]

I always learn on WS threads, and I appreciate the contributions here that have broadened my knowledge about dogs in general and specific breeds. Lots of food for thought. Thank you!

 

[rsd1200]

Some good information from the Canine Journal BBM

Dog Bite Statistics

Approximately*4.5 million dog bites*occur each year

Dogs that bite the most:

Chihuahua
Bulldog
Pit Bull
German Shepherd
Australian Shepherd
Lhasa Apso
Jack Russell Terrier
Cocker Spaniel
Bull Terrier
Pekingese
Papillion

80% of dog bites*cause no injury at all or only minor injuries that do not require medial attention

30+ breeds of dogs and mixes are incorrectly identified as “pit*bulls” in dog bite incidents, attributing the pit bull with an unfair and overstated number of incidents*(*pit bull is not technically a dog breed; breeds that are commonly referred to as pit bulls in the U.S. are American Staffordshire Terrier, American Pit Bull Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and American Bully)

Most dog bites involve dogs who are*not spayed or neutered

Fatal Dog Attacks*states that 25% of fatal attacks were inflicted by chained dogs of many different breeds

https://www.caninejournal.com/dog-bite-statistics/

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bbm

While I 100% agree with that stat, folks rarely die from a Chihuahua bite. They're the nastiest little guys though! Went to give condolences to a friend's mother, after said friend passed. My mother went with me. I noticed the Chi barking and scooting around us but paid no mind. I had on jeans and boots... I noticed my mother had this odd look on her face while talking to the mother and then as we walked to the den, I realized the Chi was attached to my little 80 year old mother's ankle!!! My mother was too polite to say anything. After she was seated she tried to scootch it off of her ankle, then another person rang the bell and it went off in search of new purchase. Most small dogs don't do much damage except to children and that's due to it usually being facial bites. We've taught the kids not to get up into the dog's faces. My mother's ankle bite was basically a bruise with a couple little drops of blood. She was more tore up over her hose being torn. :facepalm:

I also think that folks don't tend to train small dogs as much. They are seen as more of an accessory that one carries in a purse, or under the arm, in a matching outfit.

 

[Deleted member 158085]

bbm

While I 100% agree with that stat, folks rarely die from a Chihuahua bite. They're the nastiest little guys though! Went to give condolences to a friend's mother, after said friend passed. My mother went with me. I noticed the Chi barking and scooting around us but paid no mind. I had on jeans and boots... I noticed my mother had this odd look on her face while talking to the mother and then as we walked to the den, I realized the Chi was attached to my little 80 year old mother's ankle!!! My mother was too polite to say anything. After she was seated she tried to scootch it off of her ankle, then another person rang the bell and it went off in search of new purchase. Most small dogs don't do much damage except to children and that's due to it usually being facial bites. We've taught the kids not to get up into the dog's faces. My mother's ankle bite was basically a bruise with a couple little drops of blood. She was more tore up over her hose being torn. :facepalm:

I also think that folks don't tend to train small dogs as much. They are seen as more of an accessory that one carries in a purse, or under the arm, in a matching outfit.

They drive me nuts! I was not at all surprised to see them at the top of the list. I don't trust my sister's pomeranian either. And frankly, I don't understand little dogs. Give me a big old bear-headed chow or joker of a rottie any day. I prefer calm dogs, which is why those are my two favorite breeds. (Yet somehow I keep ending up with herding dogs, too, even though they are wild and tend to drive me up the wall at times. I must have a thing for them subconsciously.)

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[jamicat]

So...the reality is that if you get a Pitbull mix puppy, feed it well, socialize it, treat it well, train it, love it, exercise it, give it good medical care,keep it leashed or in a well fenced yard, and it shows no sign of aggression; in fact is a sweet obedient docile wonderful dog, what are the chances that it will attack someone?

Low. Even if higher than other breeds, and I don’t know if it is, the chances of such a pet going off and attacking anyone is low. That’s a statistical fact. However, if it does, the speed, strength, jaws of a pit bull is going to be capable of causing s lot of damage. The dachshund and chihuahua with higher odds of biting do not tend to cause as much damage

The risks are low enough that many people will take it. I don’t blame them. I think that the odds are not substantially more than that of getting any large dog.

 

[Lilibet]

So...the reality is that if you get a Pitbull mix puppy, feed it well, socialize it, treat it well, train it, love it, exercise it, give it good medical care,keep it leashed or in a well fenced yard, and it shows no sign of aggression; in fact is a sweet obedient docile wonderful dog, what are the chances that it will attack someone?

Low. Even if higher than other breeds, and I don’t know if it is, the chances of such a pet going off and attacking anyone is low. That’s a statistical fact. However, if it does, the speed, strength, jaws of a pit bull is going to be capable of causing s lot of damage. The dachshund and chihuahua with higher odds of biting do not tend to cause as much damage

The risks are low enough that many people will take it. I don’t blame them. I think that the odds are not substantially more than that of getting any large dog.

BBM

I get what you’re saying. I really do. I guess my feeling is that it’s fine if someone wants to take that low risk for themselves. But since the damage can be so great, what about the risk to others in one’s circle...family, friends, delivery people, neighbors and other animals? How does the owner of a low risk but potentially damaging dog make sure that I’m risk free? High fence? Beware of Dog signs? No guests? Personally, I don’t trust an owner’s ability to control a determined dog on a leash.

When a pit (or other large dog) attacks and mauls someone, the owner invariably says that the dog is a sweetie and has never hurt a flea. Probably true, but now it has hurt or killed someone, and it’s often not the owner (like Bethany), but someone who didn’t get to decide if they wanted to take that risk. I’m not sure there’s an answer to this ethical dilemma, but I struggle with the idea of someone owning a dog that can potentially seriously damage or kill an unsuspecting person or animal. Don’t we all have a certain degree of responsibility toward others, even if it involves curtailing our own personal desires for the greater good? How do owners of large, potentially damaging dogs handle the low but real risk to others?

 

[katydid23]

So...the reality is that if you get a Pitbull mix puppy, feed it well, socialize it, treat it well, train it, love it, exercise it, give it good medical care,keep it leashed or in a well fenced yard, and it shows no sign of aggression; in fact is a sweet obedient docile wonderful dog, what are the chances that it will attack someone?

Low. Even if higher than other breeds, and I don’t know if it is, the chances of such a pet going off and attacking anyone is low. That’s a statistical fact. However, if it does, the speed, strength, jaws of a pit bull is going to be capable of causing s lot of damage. The dachshund and chihuahua with higher odds of biting do not tend to cause as much damage

The risks are low enough that many people will take it. I don’t blame them. I think that the odds are not substantially more than that of getting any large dog.

I have had a lot of great dogs over the years and known a LOT of great dogs. And I have known a lot of Pit bulls and pit mixes. Some of my favorite, sweetest dogs I ever knew have been Pits.

But we cannot ignore the fact that their intensity and prey drive is much stronger than many other breeds.

I know that Chihuahuas have a tendency to bite. But one quick swift kick/shove and they will be across the room and will no longer be attacking you.

We raised a large pure bred German Shepherd and a Chihua-Corgi together. Our GS was pretty well mannered and loved people. Our Chihua-Corgi, much more irritable. But I never worried that the china was going to hurt anyone. He has never ever bitten anyone or tried to bite them. But he snarled and growled a lot when scared. But he is small and not dangerous.

Our Shepherd could have done a lot of damage if she ever wanted to. She never hurt the chihua, and she loved our cats. She let them sleep on her head and cuddle with her.

But she absolutely hated squirrels. She went nuts when she saw them and wanted to get them and kill them. Her prey drive for them was like a red zone. And sometimes she would watch them, taunting her from the tree, and she would suddenly turn on our lil chihuahua and snap at him aggressively, like she was blinded to the fact it was her pal. not a squirrel.

She could do a lot of damage if she wanted to. So I had to keep my eye on her always. She never was aggressive towards our kids. She was super protective of them. But she was suspicious of their friends sometimes and I couldn't let her be alone with friends playing over because she didn't like when they all rough housed. Her first INSTINCT was to protect my kids.

I believe that pit bulls have a strong instinct to go after prey. Like all dogs do of course. But if a pit decides to stalk or hunt something, YIKES.

Like I tell people, who have puppy German Shepherds----this is NOT a yellow lab or a golden retriever. This is a German Shepherd. A Police Dog. This dog's instincts are more aggressive than the average lab. You need to socialize them and train them and be the boss. We cannot ignore the fact that Shepherds and Chows and Rotts and Pits and Boxers are more aggressive and stronger than many other breeds.

 

[jamicat]

I have had a lot of great dogs over the years and known a LOT of great dogs. And I have known a lot of Pit bulls and pit mixes. Some of my favorite, sweetest dogs I ever knew have been Pits.

But we cannot ignore the fact that their intensity and prey drive is much stronger than many other breeds.

I know that Chihuahuas have a tendency to bite. But one quick swift kick/shove and they will be across the room and will no longer be attacking you.

We raised a large pure bred German Shepherd and a Chihua-Corgi together. Our GS was pretty well mannered and loved people. Our Chihua-Corgi, much more irritable. But I never worried that the china was going to hurt anyone. He has never ever bitten anyone or tried to bite them. But he snarled and growled a lot when scared. But he is small and not dangerous.

Our Shepherd could have done a lot of damage if she ever wanted to. She never hurt the chihua, and she loved our cats. She let them sleep on her head and cuddle with her.

But she absolutely hated squirrels. She went nuts when she saw them and wanted to get them and kill them. Her prey drive for them was like a red zone. And sometimes she would watch them, taunting her from the tree, and she would suddenly turn on our lil chihuahua and snap at him aggressively, like she was blinded to the fact it was her pal. not a squirrel.

She could do a lot of damage if she wanted to. So I had to keep my eye on her always. She never was aggressive towards our kids. She was super protective of them. But she was suspicious of their friends sometimes and I couldn't let her be alone with friends playing over because she didn't like when they all rough housed. Her first INSTINCT was to protect my kids.

I believe that pit bulls have a strong instinct to go after prey. Like all dogs do of course. But if a pit decides to stalk or hunt something, YIKES.

Like I tell people, who have puppy German Shepherds----this is NOT a yellow lab or a golden retriever. This is a German Shepherd. A Police Dog. This dog's instincts are more aggressive than the average lab. You need to socialize them and train them and be the boss. We cannot ignore the fact that Shepherds and Chows and Rotts and Pits and Boxers are more aggressive and stronger than many other breeds.

My husbsnd’s family has alwsys been partial to German Shepherds. They select their dogs carefully from reputable breeders, researching bloodlines, temperament and paying quite a bit for their dogs. They are also professionally trained and cared for very carefully. Many of their dogs have been near human in understanding.

They’ve also had some that were, ...well, skatzy or whatever. Unpredictable in behavior ranging from uncertainty so that they were locked away during any large gathering of people, never left alone with non family members keeping an eye on them, not ever being in vicinity of children without being on leash, and not even that. They did have at least one, and spoke of others that people they knew had that had to be put down because they were unstable. They never had any one hurt by their dogs, certainly no people and no pets either but they were very very careful.

This is not an unusual situation. i know many people who have dogs that bite or are unpredictable enough that they have to be kept on leash or locked up around others, even at home. They are not safe around others. Many are the smaller breeds, but it can be any dog

We lock up our dogs around children who are visiting our house, some elderly, and certainly anyone just not comfortable around dogs.

Everyone I know who owns dogs extends this good sense. Those we know with pit mixes all have friendly well behaved dogs that are generally not locked up. Again, if you actually do a statistical analysis of all pet pit bull mixes who are friendly, well trained, kept in caring homes, the chances of such dogs attacking anyone are minuscule. Even if they are higher than that of any breeds. The problem with pit bulls in this respect is that they can cause a lot of damage very quickly due to the way they tend to attack, their speed and strength. There are a number of dogs that are also in that category

Given the info released on Bethany’s dogs, that one was given up by a prior owner because of aggressive behavior, that they were being mistreated, locked up with very little human company, not fed regularly in a cold outside pen, those dogs were high risk for some trigger to let out anger. It was a perfect way to make dogs mean That there were two of them makes them a pack which leads to complications in behavior and control too

I have two dogs and one is well trained enough that he can walk off leash without approaching other dogs and people. He knows the yard boundaries and I can give commands at a distance with confidence. But he is not so obedient when with the other dog who is not reliable off leash. The two dogs do interact, throwing doubt in compliance of the first dog. This is with two very friendly dogs, one well trained.

Still, what happened to Bethsny is a freak occurrence which is why so much discussion and news about this. It hit me hard as i am s small older woman who takes her two dogs out into the country off leash. Though my dogs are about 50 lbs apiece, slim medium sized dogs, i doubt I can handle both of them if they go rogue. I walk them together but like many who walk their dogs, depend upon the dogs cooperation for control. I doubt I could hold 100lbs of dog on leashes if they really decided to bolt on me. They could very likely kill me if they attacked me. That is a reality of many who are walking their dogs. They depend upon the behavior of their dogs to be safe and keep control. I see a big lab occasionally walked down our street who is absolutely walking the owner. I don’t go out when I see thT pair and keep an eye out for them, because that dog would drag it’s owner or get loose as it has with others walking their dogs. My dogs are trained welll enough that I can walk them with other dogs also around. But in pure physical control, yes, I am taking a chance. This is typical with dogs, however. There is a trust we have with our dogs. With Bethsny, that trust was breached

 

[Deleted member 158085]

Pits are not inherently more dangerous than other dogs. And unless we want to also banish German Shepherds, Great Danes, Malamutes, and several other breeds, BSL against pits makes no sense.

Breed risk score from https://www.pitbullinfo.org/statistics.html

The dog bite-related data provided on this page is sourced from a peer-reviewed study*conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control (CDC) and published by the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) that analyzed 20 years of dog bite incident data. The data, sources, and calculations for the Breed Risk Scores are all provided below.

The Breed Risk Score table only includes breeds listed in the CDC report's primary results table for purebred breeds associated with 7 or more DBRFs. Other breeds listed in the CDC report associated with DBRFs but not*included in the table (because they have fewer than 7 DBRFs) are: Labrador Retriever, Akita, Sled-type, Bulldog, Mastiff, Boxer, Bullmastiff, Hound, and others.

One solution I see is to tackle the problems that are clear when you look at the common factors among all dog bite fatalities. This would ultimately mean making stronger laws and ordinances regulating the Humane care of dogs, which would be fine by me. If you have a gun, you should not leave it lying out in your backyard. If you have a dog, you should not leave it chained in the backyard. In either case, a kid who gets hold of it is likely to get hurt.

Other factors are unaltered dogs, and we could require spay and neuter for those who do not have a license to breed. In my view, we need to somehow curb indiscriminate and backyard breeding. This may sound insane to some, as an infringement on rights, but so is BSL and many people are for that.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[redfrohock]

QUESTIONS:
WHY did she move out of town?
WHERE was her car parked? At her father's house, or at a trail head?

 

[redfrohock]

oh and one more question. she was found naked, but were her clothes nearby?

 

[jamicat]

BBM

I get what you’re saying. I really do. I guess my feeling is that it’s fine if someone wants to take that low risk for themselves. But since the damage can be so great, what about the risk to others in one’s circle...family, friends, delivery people, neighbors and other animals? How does the owner of a low risk but potentially damaging dog make sure that I’m risk free? High fence? Beware of Dog signs? No guests? Personally, I don’t trust an owner’s ability to control a determined dog on a leash.

When a pit (or other large dog) attacks and mauls someone, the owner invariably says that the dog is a sweetie and has never hurt a flea. Probably true, but now it has hurt or killed someone, and it’s often not the owner (like Bethany), but someone who didn’t get to decide if they wanted to take that risk. I’m not sure there’s an answer to this ethical dilemma, but I struggle with the idea of someone owning a dog that can potentially seriously damage or kill an unsuspecting person or animal. Don’t we all have a certain degree of responsibility toward others, even if it involves curtailing our own personal desires for the greater good? How do owners of large, potentially damaging dogs handle the low but real risk to others?

You are absolutely right. Any dog is a bite risk. Though we can minimize the risk with controls, training, size of dog, there is a risk of any dog biting a person despite rigorous controls. Some of the controls increase the risk, as well socialized dogs tend to bite less by far. But regardless of precautions, people mess up, dogs mess up, and yes, the risk of being bitten by any dog is there

So we have to draw lines as to what risks we want to take both as individuals and society. Specifically as a community. We put in stipulations such as the dog’ record. Imo once a dog has aggressively bitten another person with few exceptions and extenuating circumstances, he should be put down. The standards for my personal pets are higher. I would not keep a dog that shows aggressive behavior at all towards any person with even fewer exceptions. Even if the dog were acting towards a perceived threat or protecting me from such, because with all the kids (grown) and company around here, horseplay and arguments, I cannot have a jumpy dog. I don’t tolerate any signs of aggression towards people. Now, that means my dogs are most likely not going to protect me. They’ve watched family members, including me in heated arguments and all kind so physical wrestling and such. No aggression. They look at every visitor as bringing good things to them. So I wouldn’t bet a dime that they’d protect me against an assailabt. Maybe, but given their calm in some turbulent situations, I don’t think so. I believe that they would protect me from other dogs and animals. Again from observing their behavior. We have coyotes in our woods and we have encountered loose dogs, and they immediately close ranks around me and are at attention. They have never attacked another creature however.

But I know plenty of dogs that are more reactive. Includes breeds like golden retriever and labs, known to be gentle and people loving.

Then we come up with size and breed attack records. I’m a lifetime dog lover, and as a rule am not afraid of dogs and my experience has been great with them But some of the huge dogs do get me a bit nervous. We had neighbors who had two St Bernard’s for years; as one died, it would be replaced by another My sons were neighborhood dog walkers, and though all athletes, big and strong, if those two dogs chose to bolt, not one of them could have controlled them. They were attacked by a pit type dog once and easily subdued it. Size does count in some ways. Though these were gentle giants from all I saw, the owners, and few people could physically contain them if they had gone rogue

So where to draw the line is the big question? Most, though not even all agree that dogs that have attacked people should be put down. Even disagreement on that, however. There is a lot of battle regarding breed specific band. If a dog breed shows a record of attacks, should that breed be banned?

Then there is dog environment. I do NOt Walk my dogs in certain neighborhoods of my town. Dogs contained in small fenced yards or tied up that exhibit aggressive behavior. Those barks intermingled with growls and snarls are not friendly. But those people have s right to those dogs too. There is a huge push these days to get older rescue dogs as so many need homes. I hesitate there because IMO there is no telling what those dogs’ histories are and I don’t trust shelter safety evaluations. I know too many that were way off.

So, where does one draw that line as to what dogs are safe enough to own and what precautions to take with ones dogs? It all comes down to judgement and comfort levels. I remove my dog from anyone’s company who is the least bit uncomfortable. Sorry, guys, but into a bedroom you go if a guest feels that way. We have a dear elderly family friend who is unsteady enough on feet that I will not have my dogs loose around her on my premises. They say hello, and have to take a break. I also do not permit my dogs loose around small children. For no other reason than principle. They are probably fine but i am not. No telling what kids will do and what prey drive will be released with kids. So the dogs have to be leashed with a responsible adult holding them when kids are around or they are put into a room for the duration.

But these are my personal breakpoints. Others stricter to point of no dogs or so lax, their dogs run loose.

So, yes, I and all dog owners are taking risks on part of ourselves and others by owning dogs. As we take risks for s lot of things in life. I believe my risks in this area are well within the vast vast majority of people’s comfort zone.

 

[jamicat]

QUESTIONS:
WHY did she move out of town?
WHERE was her car parked? At her father's house, or at a trail head?

Does it matter?
Apparently, she was separating from a bad relationship, and was not able to have the dogs where she was now living. Parked them at her father’s, because he had the property and pens, and cared for them when she could. From fathers statements as reported by LE, the terms of that arrangement were such that he was not going to have to deal with them other than giving them the caged area, and he kept to those terms. I think both Bethsny and father abused and neglected those dogs in this arrangement

She lived far enough away that she did not come to care for the dogs daily. From statements, if accurate, she came by as she usually did, by car or dropped off, and took the dogs out for a walk in deserted “country” area. That she did not return did not trigger concerns with her father probably because she did this sort of thing. She was not a minor, did not live with father.

Apparently, concerned friends came to the father’s place because she did not return their calls, broke some contact commitments, and also she was in a contentious situation with someone who had even threatened to kill her.

That is one of the reasons, friends have been suspicious of this death. LE says, the person or persons in question, have been investigated and are cleared of what happened. The police are aware that she had these personal threats at that time

It is possible...very small possibility, but possible that her former Significant Other, went with her on this walk. That they had an altercation, that it excited the dogs and was a trigger for the attack. That person could have lived with the dogs as well as her, and the dogs regarded him as Alpha and joined in on the attack against her. Dogs and pack mentality is always an issue. Or that he knocked her down, anc the dogs went on an attack frenzy at her

But the person in question here has been cleared after investigation. I doubt very much any stranger would have taken a chance of attacking her with those dogs, and even someone who knew the dogs would have been taking s risk. But could have happened. No evidence, however, that anyone involved other than dogs.

I made an incorrect statement upthread. An autopsy was done, and the ME has declared cause of death dog attack. Forensics matching DNA to dogs will take time to come back, but the official verdict is that those dogs killed her. No evidence of other creatures, including human involvement found