VA - Bethany Stephens, 21, mauled to death by her 2 dogs, Dec 2017

[Deleted member 158085]

Not sure "jaded" is the right word. Realistic seems more fitting. I'm giving a link to a woman's story after adopting a young female pit. It was fascinating and the ending leaves one wondering.

My Pit Bull Experience, by Giancarla Churchman
https://www.scribd.com/document/36262816/My-Pit-Bull-Experience-by-Giancarla-Churchman

This is a perfectly safe, somewhat scholarly site.

I have seen dogs with unstable personalities like this, most notably a beautiful yellow lab who ended up going for the jugular on another dog. My vet was shocked when I brought him in for euthanasia, probably because he adored yellow labs. He was about to counsel me against it when the dog growled and lunged at him. This lab was human aggressive with all but my husband, me, and one vet tech - 3 people that even aggressive animals typically adore. I learned from that experience not to base potential for human aggression on reactions to these 3 people.

This dog was wired wrong, like another lab mix I also tried to help. I was convinced that she would both eventually bite a stranger and probably kill cats and small dogs. I did not wait to find out after having her assessed by a trainer, my vet, and the shelter director. (We also tried medication on her, and even with the big guns, she was always in a tizzy.) We who assessed her had all learned over the years that if your gut tells you it could happen, it probably will. It appears that this woman knew in her gut as well but hoped to overcome it with training.

That's like thinking that talk therapy alone can cure bi-polar disorder in a human. It cannot. And while it might make it manageable most of the time, it's not likely to manage it all of the time.

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[Deleted member 158085]

Our previous county shelter manager refused to euth unless it was mandated by the court. I've adopted from shelters. I have two shelter dogs right now. A small cairn terrier mix, born at the shelter to a cairn mother, and the shepherd (herding dog mix). I went down to visit the shelter, and ended up with the two aforementioned dogs. There was a recent article in the paper about two pits who had gotten loose and went on a rampage through town, they killed three dogs, on each of those dog's turf, and severely wounded another, who later died. This was not their first merry-go-round either. The judge had ordered them contained until the owner's trial was over and then they were to be euthed. I saw the dogs there when I went to pick up mine, after they'd been fixed. They couldn't even put other dogs in the cages near them. The manager told me she was going to fight the euth order and had been going into the cages, by herself, everyday, to love on them, and test their temperaments so she could prove adoptability. She weighed maybe 90 pounds, soaking wet, and these dogs were at least 100 pound dogs or larger. Their heads were bigger than hers! I really worried about her decision making skills as a manager of the shelter, and for her own safety. She was later replaced...

You know, that's the absolute dumbest thing I've heard of. Seriously, in a danged kennel with tons of barking dogs in other kennels and the smell of anxiety and fear in the air, to go into that kennel. This is where, if you're going to handle a questionable dog, you get it into an isolation room or at least an outdoor kennel away from noise. Holy cow. I likely know this person, too.

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[katydid23]

The former owner of one of Bethany’s dogs said it snapped at her not any big time attacks. That was enough for her to give up the dog. With a baby upcoming, can’t really blame her. It’s one thing for an adult to take chances; a whole other when an infant or mi or is involved.

Bethany had the littermate and was experienced with dogs, at the time had resources, setting and environment to take on the second dog.

I wish we could control irresponsible dog owner but not in the picture here. I agree that such owners are primarily the reason for dog disasters. But in this case, no telling what happened. Such a tragedy.

It just 'snapped' at her? I call that a potential big time attack. Once a dog 'snaps' at it's owner, BIG RED FLAG.

I have had a long line of German Shepherds. Great dogs, but also potentially dangerous dogs. If any of them literally had snapped at me, I would have returned them to their prior residences. I had a family and had visitors etc.

When they were puppies they would bite us during playtime, and we had to correct them in training, that it was not OK to bite their human family.

Having a pit bull that 'snaps' at you is very problematic. That tells you they are out of control, emotionally. And they cannot be trusted. JMO

 

[rsd1200]

Very intelligent stance. Now, if you/we/the rest of us could convince all rescues and shelters to convert to that line of thinking, we all would be safer. I don't understand the reasoning behind "no kill" shelters in the first place.

dup post. Don't know what happened there. sorry.

 

[Lilibet]

Not sure "jaded" is the right word. Realistic seems more fitting. I'm giving a link to a woman's story after adopting a young female pit. It was fascinating and the ending leaves one wondering.

My Pit Bull Experience, by Giancarla Churchman
https://www.scribd.com/document/36262816/My-Pit-Bull-Experience-by-Giancarla-Churchman

This is a perfectly safe, somewhat scholarly site.

I honestly found “My Pit Bull Experience” to be very disturbing.

Full disclosure: Although we had dogs decades ago, we quickly learned that we didn’t have the temperament and patience to devote to training even our easy-going Samoyed and her sweet shepherd-mix daughter. Fortunately, “come-sit-stay” was all we needed. We recognized our limits and stuck to cats after the dogs were gone.

I admire people who take on dogs and do a good job training and socializing them. But this woman, for all her precautions, put her other dog, family and employees at risk...for what? I’m sure she wanted the pit to have a good life and that’s admirable. But in her detailed description of how she worked with this dog, I sensed that she was determined to be this dog’s savior, no matter what. There just seemed to be some ego involved that overrode common sense. I’m glad she finally saw that she was in over her head before someone was seriously injured or killed. I just wish she had stopped when the dog growled at her employee or even before. I’m sure she was sincere, and I feel for her, but at what point should people modestly recognize that a particular dog is beyond their help?

I hope I’m not offending anyone. I know I’m seeing this through my own lens and I do admire those who rescue dogs but know their (or the dog’s) limits.
JMO

 

[Trident]

I honestly found “My Pit Bull Experience” to be very disturbing.

Full disclosure: Although we had dogs decades ago, we quickly learned that we didn’t have the temperament and patience to devote to training even our easy-going Samoyed and her sweet shepherd-mix daughter. Fortunately, “come-sit-stay” was all we needed. We recognized our limits and stuck to cats after the dogs were gone.

I admire people who take on dogs and do a good job training and socializing them. But this woman, for all her precautions, put her other dog, family and employees at risk...for what? I’m sure she wanted the pit to have a good life and that’s admirable. But in her detailed description of how she worked with this dog, I sensed that she was determined to be this dog’s savior, no matter what. There just seemed to be some ego involved that overrode common sense. I’m glad she finally saw that she was in over her head before someone was seriously injured or killed. I just wish she had stopped when the dog growled at her employee or even before. I’m sure she was sincere, and I feel for her, but at what point should people modestly recognize that a particular dog is beyond their help?

I hope I’m not offending anyone. I know I’m seeing this through my own lens and I do admire those who rescue dogs but know their (or the dog’s) limits.
JMO

I found the piece disturbing also. In a world where there are so many problems, starving children, homeless people, crime, etc., to spend so much time and money, I'm sure, seems almost like a crime. I can understand wanting to give a dog a chance, I MIGHT do that myself with another breed, but to give one dog chance after chance when the time and money would have been better spent elsewhere is taking it too far, IMO.

What really bothered me, at the end, we don't know whether that dog was euthanized or if they tried to rehome it with another unsuspecting family.

 

[jamicat]

My first impression of “No Kill” shelters was that they did not kill animals after a given time that they are not adopted. It does cause stress and pain when a sweet animal has to be euthanized because it was unlucky enough to come into a shelter during a slow adoption time. So, that a shelter is “no kill” in its operation, on the surface sounds humane.

Of course, there are Issues and drawbacks with such operations in that all shelters have capacities, and when full, those animals who come up needing shelter have to be denied a spot. Then there is the question of what to do with those animals who have issues severe enough that they are difficult to place.

The answers to those situations are not savory. Basically, some such shelters are lying about issues their animals have, making up poignant backstories for them and marketing them in upbeat ways when some of these creatures have high risk issues and need special care that is not specified. Worse yet is if the animals are dangerous.

Our shelter claims to be “no kill” though the exception to that is any dog designated as a danger to humans. Not to other animals but to people. Animals that are not adopted after a given time period are given some press and adoption fees reduced. PR campaigns are run to drum up interest.

We have not had serious dog attacks on humans despite the large number of pit bulls in this area , but many people have had their cats and dogs attacked. Happens frequently, in fact.

I love animals and have rescue dogs myself, but I would err towards safety in designating a dog as dangerous. I agree that there are more dogs that need homes, well behaved ones, to have to cater to the questionable ones

 

[jamicat]

Want to add that the shelter does impose what I think is a hefty adoption fee for this area. Even discounted it’s high, and they do a rather stringent background and living conditions check.

Here, the issue is free market breeding of strong dogs among the populations. Namely Pitbull mixes.

 

[Trident]

I have a question. In the past few years, even more in the past week or so, I've been studying pitbulls, pitbull attacks, and fatalities by pitbull. Now, my question is this: Why are pitbull advocates so blinded to the deadly potential of these dogs? What would cause those in charge of rescues/shelters to be so blinded that they would lie or withhold information on a dog's aggression history, and keep on offering it for adoption despite being told by staff of the dog's potential for aggression? What is it inside of these people that puts a dog before the safety of a human being? I am really perplexed.

Here's an article that reiterated what I've read over and over, but somehow it hit me harder today. It starts out with the lady in Phoenix killed by an Akita a few days ago, but it continues. Please hit the "read more", cause there's a lot more to read.
http://www.animals24-7.org/2017/12/...-record-5th-fatality-of-2017-by-shelter-dogs/

I would really like to know the answer to my question, if anyone has an answer.

 

[Lilibet]

I found the piece disturbing also. In a world where there are so many problems, starving children, homeless people, crime, etc., to spend so much time and money, I'm sure, seems almost like a crime. I can understand wanting to give a dog a chance, I MIGHT do that myself with another breed, but to give one dog chance after chance when the time and money would have been better spent elsewhere is taking it too far, IMO.

What really bothered me, at the end, we don't know whether that dog was euthanized or if they tried to rehome it with another unsuspecting family.

Yes, you do bring up a touchy issue. Are animals as important or more important than human beings, especially humans who may need help? I get that there are people who prefer animals to other people for the unconditional love/affection/acceptance animals may give. And I do believe that part of being a decent human being is to care responsibly for animals. But I also believe that there is a balance that is weighted more toward the relative value of people. Each of us can decide where to expend our energy and resources. But if push comes to shove, I would have to choose a human over an animal if I can’t help both. I would be willing to give my life for another person, but not for an animal. And I would never have any animal that is dangerous to people, thinking I can rehabilitate that animal. I certainly hope that poor dog was not re-homed to another person who may have wanted to hone their rehabilitation skills.

All JMO. No judgment of others’ choices.

 

[Deleted member 158085]

I have a question. In the past few years, even more in the past week or so, I've been studying pitbulls, pitbull attacks, and fatalities by pitbull. Now, my question is this: Why are pitbull advocates so blinded to the deadly potential of these dogs? What would cause those in charge of rescues/shelters to be so blinded that they would lie or withhold information on a dog's aggression history, and keep on offering it for adoption despite being told by staff of the dog's potential for aggression? What is it inside of these people that puts a dog before the safety of a human being? I am really perplexed.

Here's an article that reiterated what I've read over and over, but somehow it hit me harder today. It starts out with the lady in Phoenix killed by an Akita a few days ago, but it continues. Please hit the "read more", cause there's a lot more to read.
http://www.animals24-7.org/2017/12/...-record-5th-fatality-of-2017-by-shelter-dogs/

I would really like to know the answer to my question, if anyone has an answer.

I don't have time at the moment to read this article but will go back to it tonight.

As to pit bull advocates being blinded, I simply have to disagree. If you read the articles that Gitana posted earlier in the thread which discuss why the dogbites.org site is problematic, you may understand that these stats are skewed. Also, check out the full Wikipedia article on dog bites, which also outlines what the problems are with dogbites. Org stats.

One of the problems is that the media does not report on all dog bites, but that they tend to report on most pit bull bites. So when stats are compiled based on media reports, you don't get an accurate picture. The second thing is that many of these reports misidentify the breed as a pit. The third thing is that there are a lot of pits, which means there will be more bites from pits. If there were fewer pits and more German shepherds or anything else, you would see the numbers for pit bites how down and the number for shepherds go up.

People who work with dogs day in and day out are more likely to dig deeper into what's behind the statistics when those statistics do not show what they see in their own experience. That's why most animal advocates have read beyond sites like dogbites - and they have found that the stats are flawed.

As to the idea that shelters continue to adopt out known biters, in my experience that's generally not the case. Shelters in particular are quick to euthanize aggressive animals, and even dogs just for being a certain breed, if only for liability reasons. Some will attempt to place certain breeds in breed specific rescues only and not adopt directly to the public for the same reason. I often see dogs posted as being available only to rescues.

There is a minority of rescues who may adopt out a dog with a known history of biting. But when this happens, it is usually because they believe there was a lot more to the situation.

I would say that most rescues do not lie about aggression. They can be sued, too, so they worry about liability issues as well. But I have to tell you that there are some sketchy people in rescue, and that's why rescue has its own problems like hoarding within its ranks. There are generally no regulations on rescues in most states. The handful of idiots make the rest of us look bad.

We tried to regulate ourselves in Kentucky, but it's tough because we couldn't take any actual legal action against bad rescues. All we could do was blacklist them. And one of my friends got sued when she outed a sanctuary that is truly a nightmare. With so few animal laws in Kentucky, the rescue wasn't technically breaking any laws even though it's bad enough that I would prefer to see those animals euthanized rather than live one more day as they do.

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[MaryG12]

I honestly found “My Pit Bull Experience” to be very disturbing.

Full disclosure: Although we had dogs decades ago, we quickly learned that we didn’t have the temperament and patience to devote to training even our easy-going Samoyed and her sweet shepherd-mix daughter. Fortunately, “come-sit-stay” was all we needed. We recognized our limits and stuck to cats after the dogs were gone.

I admire people who take on dogs and do a good job training and socializing them. But this woman, for all her precautions, put her other dog, family and employees at risk...for what? I’m sure she wanted the pit to have a good life and that’s admirable. But in her detailed description of how she worked with this dog, I sensed that she was determined to be this dog’s savior, no matter what. There just seemed to be some ego involved that overrode common sense. I’m glad she finally saw that she was in over her head before someone was seriously injured or killed. I just wish she had stopped when the dog growled at her employee or even before. I’m sure she was sincere, and I feel for her, but at what point should people modestly recognize that a particular dog is beyond their help?

I hope I’m not offending anyone. I know I’m seeing this through my own lens and I do admire those who rescue dogs but know their (or the dog’s) limits.
JMO

I read Churchman's letter, and agree with you - so much of it has to do with limitations, being aware of one's own limitations, knowing what one can or cannot handle.

Thus the reason some people do not have children (like us) or dogs (like us).

Granted, there are some people who have kids or dogs or even cats and probably shouldn't but they have the kids, dog or cat for the wrong reasons.

On the surface, the emotional appeal may be stronger (as in Bethany's case) - but in reality, dealing with the challenges of having a pet or two, if from a questionable background, might cause more problems in the long run. I know Bethany was petite, which is why I am still trying to work on, how could she handle two big dogs like that?

The saddest part in this case, there are no winners, not for poor Bethany, her family, or the dogs.

 

[Deleted member 158085]

I read Churchman's letter, and agree with you - so much of it has to do with limitations, being aware of one's own limitations, knowing what one can or cannot handle.

Thus the reason some people do not have children (like us) or dogs (like us).

Granted, there are some people who have kids or dogs or even cats and probably shouldn't but they have the kids, dog or cat for the wrong reasons.

On the surface, the emotional appeal may be stronger (as in Bethany's case) - but in reality, dealing with the challenges of having a pet or two, if from a questionable background, might cause more problems in the long run. I know Bethany was petite, which is why I am still trying to work on, how could she handle two big dogs like that?

The saddest part in this case, there are no winners, not for poor Bethany, her family, or the dogs.

As to her size and handling two on leash, it might be pretty difficult. When Tonk was young, it appeared she used a gentle leader, which gives you good control. However, it takes some effort to place one on two dogs, and if you don't get it on right, it can come off. I wonder if she took the time to place gentle leaders on them that day, or perhaps even got one on wrong and one got loose.


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[keeleydoll]

I have a question. In the past few years, even more in the past week or so, I've been studying pitbulls, pitbull attacks, and fatalities by pitbull. Now, my question is this: Why are pitbull advocates so blinded to the deadly potential of these dogs? What would cause those in charge of rescues/shelters to be so blinded that they would lie or withhold information on a dog's aggression history, and keep on offering it for adoption despite being told by staff of the dog's potential for aggression? What is it inside of these people that puts a dog before the safety of a human being? I am really perplexed.

Here's an article that reiterated what I've read over and over, but somehow it hit me harder today. It starts out with the lady in Phoenix killed by an Akita a few days ago, but it continues. Please hit the "read more", cause there's a lot more to read.
http://www.animals24-7.org/2017/12/...-record-5th-fatality-of-2017-by-shelter-dogs/

I would really like to know the answer to my question, if anyone has an answer.

My cousin’s first pit got out of his outdoor kennel and was shot dead by a neighbor when it attacked the neighbor’s dog. She has fostered pits for years now, trains the fosters for their canine good citizen certification and also works full time at a very busy doggy daycare. In the last ~7 months she has been bitten terribly (hand/arm surgery both times) twice by the same dog, a pit several months apart. Both times she was trying to stop it from attacking other dogs. I’m appalled both that the daycare let the dog back after the first incident and that the owner has seemingly taken no steps to remedy the problem or if they have, it didn’t do any good.


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[drelaw]

Not sure "jaded" is the right word. Realistic seems more fitting. I'm giving a link to a woman's story after adopting a young female pit. It was fascinating and the ending leaves one wondering.

My Pit Bull Experience, by Giancarla Churchman
https://www.scribd.com/document/36262816/My-Pit-Bull-Experience-by-Giancarla-Churchman

This is a perfectly safe, somewhat scholarly site.

Okay I don’t know about anyone else but that article just made me cry. It’s so sad these beautiful dogs seem to have an inner demon lurking within


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[rsd1200]

I honestly found “My Pit Bull Experience” to be very disturbing.

Full disclosure: Although we had dogs decades ago, we quickly learned that we didn’t have the temperament and patience to devote to training even our easy-going Samoyed and her sweet shepherd-mix daughter. Fortunately, “come-sit-stay” was all we needed. We recognized our limits and stuck to cats after the dogs were gone.

I admire people who take on dogs and do a good job training and socializing them. But this woman, for all her precautions, put her other dog, family and employees at risk...for what? I’m sure she wanted the pit to have a good life and that’s admirable. But in her detailed description of how she worked with this dog, I sensed that she was determined to be this dog’s savior, no matter what. There just seemed to be some ego involved that overrode common sense. I’m glad she finally saw that she was in over her head before someone was seriously injured or killed. I just wish she had stopped when the dog growled at her employee or even before. I’m sure she was sincere, and I feel for her, but at what point should people modestly recognize that a particular dog is beyond their help?

I hope I’m not offending anyone. I know I’m seeing this through my own lens and I do admire those who rescue dogs but know their (or the dog’s) limits.
JMO

I know some folks don't care for this site, but, the recounting of the story, is one of the most horrific, I'd ever read. I stumbled across the attack, shortly after it had happened, and then doing some reading and searching, found the story. This was the story that has haunted me and has caused me to tell my grandchild to stay far away from their neighbor's dog, when playing outside, and have cautioned the parents, more than once, b/c the owners are not responsible at all.

The story of 14 mos. old Daxton Borchardt.

http://blog.dogsbite.org/2013/07/beyond-the-interview-essay-of-a-fatal-pit-bull-mauling.html

 

[rsd1200]

Yes, you do bring up a touchy issue. Are animals as important or more important than human beings, especially humans who may need help? I get that there are people who prefer animals to other people for the unconditional love/affection/acceptance animals may give. And I do believe that part of being a decent human being is to care responsibly for animals. But I also believe that there is a balance that is weighted more toward the relative value of people. Each of us can decide where to expend our energy and resources. But if push comes to shove, I would have to choose a human over an animal if I can’t help both. I would be willing to give my life for another person, but not for an animal. And I would never have any animal that is dangerous to people, thinking I can rehabilitate that animal. I certainly hope that poor dog was not re-homed to another person who may have wanted to hone their rehabilitation skills.

All JMO. No judgment of others’ choices.

I love my dogs. I treat them like dogs though. I am their pack leader. I've been teaching my grandkids, like I taught my kids, how to handle dogs, respect them, and give commands. However, my Rott dwarfs my grandkids, even the eldest. I never leave them alone with her, although she's never shown aggression toward them. She has excellent bloodlines and her parents were show dogs, but, you never know. I never left my kids alone with my first Rottie (I got her before I had kids but she was good with them). If my Rott ever bared her teeth at the grandkids, I'd have to put her down. I'd never want to take a chance at re-homing her into a potentially bad home, and I could not bear taking her to a shelter, and her world being upside down and her possibly biting someone. I would take her to the vet, and have her put to sleep, and I'd sit with her, and cry my heart out, but that's what I'd do.

 

[rsd1200]

I don't have time at the moment to read this article but will go back to it tonight.

As to pit bull advocates being blinded, I simply have to disagree. If you read the articles that Gitana posted earlier in the thread which discuss why the dogbites.org site is problematic, you may understand that these stats are skewed. Also, check out the full Wikipedia article on dog bites, which also outlines what the problems are with dogbites. Org stats.

One of the problems is that the media does not report on all dog bites, but that they tend to report on most pit bull bites. So when stats are compiled based on media reports, you don't get an accurate picture. The second thing is that many of these reports misidentify the breed as a pit. The third thing is that there are a lot of pits, which means there will be more bites from pits. If there were fewer pits and more German shepherds or anything else, you would see the numbers for pit bites how down and the number for shepherds go up.

People who work with dogs day in and day out are more likely to dig deeper into what's behind the statistics when those statistics do not show what they see in their own experience. That's why most animal advocates have read beyond sites like dogbites - and they have found that the stats are flawed.

As to the idea that shelters continue to adopt out known biters, in my experience that's generally not the case. Shelters in particular are quick to euthanize aggressive animals, and even dogs just for being a certain breed, if only for liability reasons. Some will attempt to place certain breeds in breed specific rescues only and not adopt directly to the public for the same reason. I often see dogs posted as being available only to rescues.

There is a minority of rescues who may adopt out a dog with a known history of biting. But when this happens, it is usually because they believe there was a lot more to the situation.

I would say that most rescues do not lie about aggression. They can be sued, too, so they worry about liability issues as well. But I have to tell you that there are some sketchy people in rescue, and that's why rescue has its own problems like hoarding within its ranks. There are generally no regulations on rescues in most states. The handful of idiots make the rest of us look bad.

We tried to regulate ourselves in Kentucky, but it's tough because we couldn't take any actual legal action against bad rescues. All we could do was blacklist them. And one of my friends got sued when she outed a sanctuary that is truly a nightmare. With so few animal laws in Kentucky, the rescue wasn't technically breaking any laws even though it's bad enough that I would prefer to see those animals euthanized rather than live one more day as they do.

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A frienemy of mine, started a no-kill shelter here. I helped financially, and with my time. I disagreed with the no-kill part but thought he may help with the overflow at the small county shelter we had at the time and his heart was in the right place. He got in over his head. The dream was great but the implementation was flawed. He had a bit of, what we call, "the big head", and his volunteers usually didn't last long b/c he'd take no suggestions. His way or no way. I finally stepped back, and it later went belly-up. Last I heard he had 15 dogs in his home. I hope he is just waiting to get them into foster placements. We've had a couple really bad hoarding cases here. I think that they truly start out with good intentions and it becomes overwhelming. I try to help our county shelter, when I can now (it doesn't have a huge amount of funding), but has good folks working there now.

 

[rsd1200]

I read Churchman's letter, and agree with you - so much of it has to do with limitations, being aware of one's own limitations, knowing what one can or cannot handle.

Thus the reason some people do not have children (like us) or dogs (like us).

Granted, there are some people who have kids or dogs or even cats and probably shouldn't but they have the kids, dog or cat for the wrong reasons.

On the surface, the emotional appeal may be stronger (as in Bethany's case) - but in reality, dealing with the challenges of having a pet or two, if from a questionable background, might cause more problems in the long run. I know Bethany was petite, which is why I am still trying to work on, how could she handle two big dogs like that?

The saddest part in this case, there are no winners, not for poor Bethany, her family, or the dogs.

Yes, she was petite, but, I am fairly tall for a female and of average weight, and I doubt that I'd have been able to get away from them.

 

[animlzrule]

Apologies if this has already been posted. It backs up much of what our more knowledgeable and experienced posters have already shared about Pitt characteristics.

10 Myths About Pit Bulls, Debunked

http://people.com/pets/10-myths-abo...myth-8-young-people-shouldnt-handle-pit-bulls