VA - Bethany Stephens, 21, mauled to death by her 2 dogs, Dec 2017

[jamicat]

For me, the verification that the dogs did this comes in the form of the defensive wounds that reflect a dog attack.

Coulda happened after she was knocked down by someone and injured. Some dogs have a problem with people on the ground and will get aggressive with them. And if she was bleeding profusely a, they could have been distracted by that. It is possible. I hope LE look very carefully for any sign of human involvement in this case. So if someone is involved; the person is made responsible

 

[gitana1]

Someone mentioned how much a dog cost a month to care for. And that people shouldn't own a dog if this and that weren't met. I disagree. If the 'perfect' home was the only home for the dogs needing a home, there would thousands more euthanized than already are. And who gets to determine what perfect is? What works for one breed, or even one dog doesn't work for another. My Great Pyrenees would be miserable living in the city. He thrives on guarding his property and his livestock. Your perfect dog houses? He won't enter one. I know, I've bought him 2 and had one built for him. Will not enter it. When it snows, he chooses to lay in the snow. He comes in the house with us when he wants.

Show me one person that has never had life surprises, or changes. What might seem like the perfect plan at one point in your life, can quickly become a problem. Your aren't the same person at 30 as you were at 18. You aren't the same at 60 as you were at 30. Rescues can get themselves in binds by trying to judge or condemn owner's decisions. It benefits no one. It stresses the rescues, the volunteers, and the person needing help. Just not a good cycle to get in. Instead, realize life evolves, and roll with the flow. Not everyone can handle a newborn baby and a dog. So be it. Help them rehome that dog, or offer to keep it a month or so until the new parents settle into a routine. People get injured, become disabled, have to move into low income housing that won't accept animals, have a child that is highly allergic to the pet, have a parent that suddenly needs them to be a caretaker, has prolonged medical issues, or the owner may die, either suddenly, tragically, or from natural causes. Some families are not in a situation to take the animals. Some won't no matter what, others can't no matter what. Don't judge. Help the animal.

I agree. I pay $12 a month for a care package for my dog, in this she gets, one free vet check up a year & all her flea/worm etc injections (and other stuff I would need the leaflet to list them all). Her food is $12 a month, she gets treats/toys sometimes and I pay $30 every two months for her to go to the dog groomer. I have no idea, unless she got sick and treatment was needed, how it would cost hundreds each month.

I struck a nerve.

First of all, I never said a person should only own a dog if their home is "perfect". Those are your words.

Second, IMO putting dogs in kennels for anything but super short periods (especially those cages) is done to serve the needs of the humans, not the dogs, goes against all natural needs of a dog and is inhumane and super cruel. IMO a dog is better off dead than being subjected to solitary confinement for long periods of its short life.

But if a person has land for the dog and other aninals for the dog to be with or if the person is home a lot, then why the heck would they need to spend hundreds per month on doggie daycare like I would need to?

Third, those are MY standards for my own ownership of a dog. Because I have a busy life and would have to leave my dog alone a lot. And I firmly believe that's extremely cruel. They are lonely and anguished the whole time they're alone, which is why the poor things dig, bark too much, get into the garbage and eat shoes and stuff. And then their irresponsible owners punish them for desperately trying to find something to do to ease the endless hours of waiting, or worse, they confine them to tiny cells like prisoners. Then: "I don't know why she bit! She never does that,"

But other people may not have as busy a schedule as I stated above. Maybe they have more land and another dog so their pets keep each other company and have room to run around. In that case, they would not need to spend $500 per month on daycare. But I would.

Further, watching too many animals suffer horrible deaths due to illness, I'm not going to feed my pets garbage. So yeah, I spend a lot on quality food. About $150 per month. And I spend a lot on pet care. They can't tell you what's wrong or what hurts. They need yearly checkups and blood work, and dental cleaning, etc. I do feel it is irresponsible for people to get animals they can't provide quality care for. But as I said in my post, those are MY standards based on my specific ode and schedule and beliefs. For me to follow because I feel that's what's right for me. Other people may do things differently and still have a good home.

But the argument that they would be euthanized if they couldn't go to a subpar home so they should be allowed to go to inadequate homes doesn't hold water with me. Should we just give shelter animals away to homeless people because they will be euthanized otherwise? A home alone is not enough. And sadly, there are far too many cats and dogs on the planet. Vastly too many for there to be enough people to care for them adequately. We need to have low cost and aggressive spay and neuter programs and outlaw pet shops and puppy mills. That's what we need to fight for.

Finally, controversial or not, I do think some animals are better off dead than suffering the way I see them suffer in life. Chained all day in a yard. Stuffed all day in a small cage. Or never let inside. (I have a friend whose family got a beautiful golden retriever who lived alone in the backyard. No walks even because the poor dog was too hyper during walks. Gee. I wonder why. I told him he should just take the dog on a long walk, give it a pack of hot dogs and then shoot it in the back of the head because the life he was giving it was evil. And please, don't tell me he should've given it away. There are millions of dogs languishing in shelters because there aren't enough homes).

Those poor dogs of Bethany had a lovely life at first with care and cuddles. The suddenly they were confined like prisoners of war and made to go hungry a lot. The only thing that broke the desperate loneliness and monotony was visits from their former mama who came to remind them of what their life used to be and who would then leave them to their cold, sad dog runs again, wondering endlessly what they did wrong and why they were being so harshly punished. They would've been better off put to sleep if they couldn't find a new home, IMO. Not knowing anything but that they were getting super sleepy. What they dealt with instead, reportedly, was abusive.

It's okay if you get mad at me. Or disagree. I'm just sick of seeing sensitive animals suffer. And tragically sometimes their lack of care and chronic neglect or abuse lead to horrific events like this one.

I think the world needs to change its thinking about pet ownership.

 

[jamicat]

Most dogs don’t lead ideal lives. People have other things they have to do like work. Money can be tight. Many wonderful people and marvelous dogs have joyous lives not meeting the standards of optimal dog care.

But that’s a long cry from abuse and neglect. Sadly, a lot of that too

These two dogs were not leading good lives lately. Nor was Bethany who apparently was going through some upheaval in hers.

 

[Wish I Knew]

I am always amazed that the only people who seem unable to recognize what is a pitbull - or pitbull type - always seem to be those that advocate for pits....it's a very interesting pattern that is unique to pit advocates.

Anyway, this young girl is gone forever because she bought into the nanny-dog fairytale, and the abrupt change in living conditions, with some unintended neglect all contributed to a perfect storm.

Additionally, how in the ever loving world can anyonr be surprised when a dog does precisely what we have engineered them to do?! Hundreds of years of selective breeding created dogs that are capable and willing with the right set of circumstances.

I also think two or more dogs do feed off each other's excitement, and whatever happened escalated quickly.

Her poor family :-(

 

[colette]

The same day Bethany was killed a woman in her 70's was killed by a pitbull raised in her home. Some of these dogs might be wonderful but ever since I was cornered by a neighbor's loose pit, I am very leery. Luckily I stood completely still and I wasn't hurt. Other neighbor's jumped into cars for safety, the dog was taken away by the city. The people had moved and just left the dog.

 

[bears10]

Yup. People should not expect to be allowed to leave their dogs loose in the country unless they are certain those dogs will never trespass and take out a flock of someone else's chickens, kill neighbor cats, or harass other animals. Country people do not take kindly to trespassing dogs and in most cases they have every right to shoot them if they are about to injure their animals /livestock.

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Also include harming a human.


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[bears10]

Coulda happened after she was knocked down by someone and injured. Some dogs have a problem with people on the ground and will get aggressive with them. And if she was bleeding profusely a, they could have been distracted by that. It is possible. I hope LE look very carefully for any sign of human involvement in this case. So if someone is involved; the person is made responsible

If this was the case, wouldn’t the dogs defend their beloved owner? Sorry but I think a murder scenario is far from the truth.


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[Deleted member 158085]

Also include harming a human.


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And causing car accidents. Frankly, I'm sick of loose dogs who are unsupervised by their owners, who are not outside herding and such (or they wouldn't be in the road, chasing cyclists, killing and harassing neighboring pets and livestock) because their owners are arrogant enough to think their dog's freedom trumps the safety of others. If a dog isn't performing a job, it needs to be contained or under the owner's control. I just know I'm going to die one of these days swerving to miss some idiot's dog.

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[jamicat]

If this was the case, wouldn’t the dogs defend their beloved owner? Sorry but I think a murder scenario is far from the truth.


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Ummm. Did you not read my post? A reason why this story particularly grips me is because I take my two dogs out to romp without another person around. I let them loose, and off they go. I have my doubts if they’d come. Back to defend me if anyone approached me in the first 10-15 minutes of their running around and I wouldn’t want to bet that they’d defend me at all if anything happened even if they were right there. Especially if they knew the assailsnt. They do not not react at all during verbal altercations with family members.

I’ve known many a woman whose dogs, yes Pit bulls, that allowed them to get beat up. Even being right there. Dogs untrained for personal protection often do not react to save the owners from attack. Particularly if the attacked is someone known to them

 

[rsd1200]

Most shelters do not have requirements like this, but most rescues do. We do not require a fence if they are walked. But we will not adopt out to someone who relies on underground fencing for containment.

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My parents had a black lab back several years ago. They had the above ground fencing at the time, (only real difference was that it was visual, and attached to stakes low, but above the ground), and the collar for the dog. He would stand straddle of it, and you could see his neck twitching, from the collar doing its' job, and he just paid no mind at all. If he wanted to go somewhere, he'd just march right over.

 

[bears10]

I struck a nerve.

First of all, I never said a person should only own a dog if their home is "perfect". Those are your words.

Second, IMO putting dogs in kennels for anything but super short periods (especially those cages) is done to serve the needs of the humans, not the dogs, goes against all natural needs of a dog and is inhumane and super cruel. IMO a dog is better off dead than being subjected to solitary confinement for long periods of its short life.

But if a person has land for the dog and other aninals for the dog to be with or if the person is home a lot, then why the heck would they need to spend hundreds per month on doggie daycare like I would need to?

Third, those are MY standards for my own ownership of a dog. Because I have a busy life and would have to leave my dog alone a lot. And I firmly believe that's extremely cruel. They are lonely and anguished the whole time they're alone, which is why the poor things dig, bark too much, get into the garbage and eat shoes and stuff. And then their irresponsible owners punish them for desperately trying to find something to do to ease the endless hours of waiting, or worse, they confine them to tiny cells like prisoners. Then: "I don't know why she bit! She never does that,"

But other people may not have as busy a schedule as I stated above. Maybe they have more land and another dog so their pets keep each other company and have room to run around. In that case, they would not need to spend $500 per month on daycare. But I would.

Further, watching too many animals suffer horrible deaths due to illness, I'm not going to feed my pets garbage. So yeah, I spend a lot on quality food. About $150 per month. And I spend a lot on pet care. They can't tell you what's wrong or what hurts. They need yearly checkups and blood work, and dental cleaning, etc. I do feel it is irresponsible for people to get animals they can't provide quality care for. But as I said in my post, those are MY standards based on my specific ode and schedule and beliefs. For me to follow because I feel that's what's right for me. Other people may do things differently and still have a good home.

But the argument that they would be euthanized if they couldn't go to a subpar home so they should be allowed to go to inadequate homes doesn't hold water with me. Should we just give shelter animals away to homeless people because they will be euthanized otherwise? A home alone is not enough. And sadly, there are far too many cats and dogs on the planet. Vastly too many for there to be enough people to care for them adequately. We need to have low cost and aggressive spay and neuter programs and outlaw pet shops and puppy mills. That's what we need to fight for.

Finally, controversial or not, I do think some animals are better off dead than suffering the way I see them suffer in life. Chained all day in a yard. Stuffed all day in a small cage. Or never let inside. (I have a friend whose family got a beautiful golden retriever who lived alone in the backyard. No walks even because the poor dog was too hyper during walks. Gee. I wonder why. I told him he should just take the dog on a long walk, give it a pack of hot dogs and then shoot it in the back of the head because the life he was giving it was evil. And please, don't tell me he should've given it away. There are millions of dogs languishing in shelters because there aren't enough homes).

Those poor dogs of Bethany had a lovely life at first with care and cuddles. The suddenly they were confined like prisoners of war and made to go hungry a lot. The only thing that broke the desperate loneliness and monotony was visits from their former mama who came to remind them of what their life used to be and who would then leave them to their cold, sad dog runs again, wondering endlessly what they did wrong and why they were being so harshly punished. They would've been better off put to sleep if they couldn't find a new home, IMO. Not knowing anything but that they were getting super sleepy. What they dealt with instead, reportedly, was abusive.

It's okay if you get mad at me. Or disagree. I'm just sick of seeing sensitive animals suffer. And tragically sometimes their lack of care and chronic neglect or abuse lead to horrific events like this one.

I think the world needs to change its thinking about pet ownership.

With all due respect, this seems to make a lot of assumptions about what the dogs were thinking. We have no idea what was going thru the dogs minds.

I agree no animals should suffer. I think the same for humans. It’s ironic to me that in our country we can euthanize animals (who can’t speak for themselves to express their feelings) to put them out of their misery, but assisted suicide for suffering humans isn’t accepted. Not really related to your post but something that doesn’t make sense to me.


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[bears10]

Ummm. Did you not read my post? A reason why this story particularly grips me is because I take my two dogs out to romp without another person around. I let them loose, and off they go. I have my doubts if they’d come. Back to defend me if anyone approached me in the first 10-15 minutes of their running around and I wouldn’t want to bet that they’d defend me at all if anything happened even if they were right there. Especially if they knew the assailsnt. They do not not react at all during verbal altercations with family members.

I’ve known many a woman whose dogs, yes Pit bulls, that allowed them to get beat up. Even being right there. Dogs untrained for personal protection often do not react to save the owners from attack. Particularly if the attacked is someone known to them

Umm yeah I read your post.

Can’t help but wonder if the many abused women you know have dogs who were also victims of the abuser.


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[jamicat]

Umm yeah I read your post.

Can’t help but wonder if the many abused women you know have dogs who were also victims of the abuser.

I suspect most, maybe all. Some were powerful dogs too.

 

[bears10]

Umm yeah I read your post.

Can’t help but wonder if the many abused women you know have dogs who were also victims of the abuser.

I suspect most, maybe all. Some were powerful dogs too.

That’s a shame. Hopefully the abused women and animals in your life have access to protection and therapy.


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[2Hope4]

I struck a nerve.

(((SNIPPED BY ME)))
I think the world needs to change its thinking about pet ownership.

It struck a nerve only because of the many years I've been doing volunteer rescue work with animals, and sadly there are some within rescue who believe only the rich should own an animal.

Just a FYI for those that like quality food for the pets, if you have a Tractor Supply store in your area, check out their 4Health brand food. It isn't ground corn for dogs and cats. Costs a bit more than Purina, but IMO and from my research, a much higher quality food. Though with the feral cats, two of the rescue groups I work with feed whatever is donated, and they buy Purina.

I do advocate that anyone with a pet set aside money just for the animals. There WILL be vet bills. Just a matter of when and how much.

Almost 2 months ago, I got a call about a new cat that showed up at a feral colony. He was extremely friendly, declawed on all 4 paws!!! And skin and bones. It cost close to $700 for the initial vet bill alone for that one cat. He is now a part of our family after looking for his owners for a month.

Unexpected vet bills are just something that people need to be as prepared for as they can. Though I realize many people are struggling to make ends meet, and there's many that don't put a priority on animal's health.

I get what you're saying. There are some people that think if they provide love, and food, they are doing all that needs to be done.

If we could talk to Bethany, we may find out she thought having the dogs at her dad's was the best solution for her situation. I didn't know her, so have no idea how she really felt or what care she normally gave. I don't think she thought her life would ever end like it did.

This is a shocking case.

 

[Jennifer17]

With all due respect, this seems to make a lot of assumptions about what the dogs were thinking. We have no idea what was going thru the dogs minds.

I agree no animals should suffer. I think the same for humans. It’s ironic to me that in our country we can euthanize animals (who can’t speak for themselves to express their feelings) to put them out of their misery, but assisted suicide for suffering humans isn’t accepted. Not really related to your post but something that doesn’t make sense to me.


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But your country does allow declawing of cats. Not many other countries in the world allow that. In my country, you would be prosecuted for animal cruelty for that.

 

[rsd1200]

Very informative, well-reasoned article.



Pit bulls don't have locking jaws though. Their basic jaw structure is the same as other dogs. But they do seem to hold on long.



Many. Wolf hybrids. Huskies and Malamutes, Chows, Sharpeis, Shepherds. All have been involved in attacks in which they can't be stopped and keep going in a frenzy.

In all of these pb terrier articles, I've thought that something has been a stimulus that has kicked in. In this instance, the dogs environment changed dramatically. Did they start bounding and jumping during their walk, start getting into it with one another, a full out dog fight ensued, and she tried to intervene and they both then turned on her? Idk. It is dangerous breaking up a dog fight. Especially a fight between large powerful dogs.

No, pits don't have locking jaws, but, a lot of folks who know the breed well and have more than one dog, will purchase what is called a "break stick'. Being that they are terriers, they have that terrier drive. It's not about locking jaws, it's about determination. Most dog breeds that get into a fight, will bite, release, jump back in, repeat. Pit Bulls grab their spot and they hold on. Once they have their hold, it's like a snapping turtle, they won't turn loose til it thunders. Hence, the "break stick". The break stick slides into the dog's mouth to make it release. It's not recommended for any other breed except the bully breeds.

Not all pits are tuned in to be more aggressive, but the breed overall, does have a tendency to be more aggressive, and is more likely to get into fights with other dogs/livestock. They're not, imo, a dog for a first time dog owner and they need a strong Alpha owner. I've never owned one, (we had a pit mix when I was a kid but it was the family pet, I have personally never owned one.) but the folk's I know who have owned them, the large majority, have had to end up paying for livestock, or vet bills for other dogs. One even jumped out of their owner's vehicle and attacked one of my small dogs, while it was sunning in its own yard. My friend didn't think much of it till he had to pay for a full grown hog a few weeks later (The farmer caught the dog in the act and put the dog down).

Much like my little cairn/poodle terrier mix (I've had several terriers/terrier mixes. I love terriers and Rotties). All of the terriers I've had were either cairn, cairn mix, or jack russell. Although they are not pit bulls, pit bulls are terriers. There is nothing a terrier loves much better than going after their prey. I had one cairn mix that rid the whole area of moles and shrews. He delighted in taking on coons that were way bigger than he was. His tail would wag with glee as he fought them. A game of tug? They are in! You can lift them off their feet and they won't turn loose. (I don't reccomend playing "tug" with pits or Rotties, or really any powerful dog). The little pit mix we had when I was a kid, would bite folks if they just strolled up on him, on our property, he was heck on other dogs who came around, and killed groundhogs with joyful abandon, and only weighed about 30 pounds. It was the terrier in him. He'd go to ground, and just latch on to the groundhog, til he wore it down, and could back out of the hole with it, and then finish it off. He'd then eat it.

Break Sticks
http://www.pbrc.net/breaksticks.html

 

[rsd1200]

From experience with obedience and hunt training labs, I wonder if, as a trainer out of habit she carried treats or jerky bits in pants pockets and the scent was just too much for very hungry dogs who were confused and upset about their situation.


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I've been around starved dogs, I mean really starved dogs, and one was covered in sores. The poor things first reactions were to wag their poor bony tails and delight that someone was caring for them.

 

[rsd1200]

It struck a nerve only because of the many years I've been doing volunteer rescue work with animals, and sadly there are some within rescue who believe only the rich should own an animal.

Just a FYI for those that like quality food for the pets, if you have a Tractor Supply store in your area, check out their 4Health brand food. It isn't ground corn for dogs and cats. Costs a bit more than Purina, but IMO and from my research, a much higher quality food. Though with the feral cats, two of the rescue groups I work with feed whatever is donated, and they buy Purina.

I do advocate that anyone with a pet set aside money just for the animals. There WILL be vet bills. Just a matter of when and how much.

Almost 2 months ago, I got a call about a new cat that showed up at a feral colony. He was extremely friendly, declawed on all 4 paws!!! And skin and bones. It cost close to $700 for the initial vet bill alone for that one cat. He is now a part of our family after looking for his owners for a month.

Unexpected vet bills are just something that people need to be as prepared for as they can. Though I realize many people are struggling to make ends meet, and there's many that don't put a priority on animal's health.

I get what you're saying. There are some people that think if they provide love, and food, they are doing all that needs to be done.

If we could talk to Bethany, we may find out she thought having the dogs at her dad's was the best solution for her situation. I didn't know her, so have no idea how she really felt or what care she normally gave. I don't think she thought her life would ever end like it did.

This is a shocking case.

I've also known people who may have been in a good financial situation when they got their pet and then their situation changes. My dogs and cats are part of my family. I'd be hard pressed to give them up. I had to get my Dad to keep my first Rottie for awhile, when I moved, until I could fix the yard for her. Ultimately I was able to work something out, and she lived out her life there, with us, til cancer took her at age 13. Sometimes life just happens. I've been poor. I've eaten sale price, off-brand, bologna for lunch and dinner and gave my dog, I had at the time, whatever I was eating. If I'm flush, they're flush. If I'm not so flush, they gotta make do too, but I won't give them up. I see no difference in it than buying the kids the off brand cereal, for example, when money was tight.

 

[jamicat]

I live in a poor county, poor town. Most of the dogs are not licensed, and behind in their shots despite county wide programs for free neuter and rabies vaccines. We have a very active shelter that is comprised mainly of Pitbulls and several cat programs abound. Feral, stray and outdoor cats a big problem though a lot of people pitching in to get them neutered. Neighbor down the street caught over 50 of them and brought them to free neuter clinic this year. Too many intact dogs, especially pits. Good news very few dog attacks on people over last 40!yests despite the prevalence of pit mix dogs but s lot of dogs attacked

My husband grew up here and said that this large number of pit mix dogs is new. The mutts when he was growing up were shepherd and lab mixes. You could find cheap dogs for sale or give always easily then within the neighborhood. Going to a shelter for a dog, getting a “rescue” dog was a foreign idea. Stray dogs did exist abound and even fewer people leashed their dogs those days. His dog often got loose and ran with the dog gangs. Though dog fights happened, they were within those gangs and he doesn’t remember being nervous about loose dogs. They did not tend to stack leashed dogs walking with owners. These days I walk with pepper spray not for my protection but for my dogs’. I want a fence as. much to keep other dogs out as I do to keep my dogs in my yard

The less affluent areas of town tend to have the pit mixes. I think they hdvd become the dog of choice for those with seriously low income. The shelters will offer deals on pit mixes to get them into homes, and the mix also seems to be what backyard breeders are selling. That’s why the number of these dogs are going up and sadly that’s why there are so many dire incidents involving them. If you go through Wikipedia’d List of dog bite fatalities, you can see the dominance of Pitbull mixes take over that list over time. If you read a bit more about the attacks, it becomes clear that a majority of them occur with dogs involved that are in marginal situations. I was struck by that realization. And not all cases have that extra background info.

No doubt many of these dogs with Pitbull ancestry have atttibutes that make them challenging dog. Their raw strength per pound, for starters. Walking a 50 lb Pitbull is a whole other experience over most other breeds. Then their powerful jaws, prey drive, speed and focus. These dogs need training, consistent discipline, and should never run loose. More so than many other breeds because the consequences can be more severe. It’s the same case for all dogs really, but the stakes are ramped up with certain breeds, and dogs with a lot of pit in them tend to be in that group. But where it becomes an issue with these dogs is that too many of their owners hone these characteristics that can make them dangerous and they are not as careful with these dogs. Around my street, the owners are very careful with their dogs, leashing them and keeping them in their yards. Not do much in some other neighborhoods where too many pit owners seem to revel in the fact that they have scary dogs instead of being extra careful.

Where Bethany fell in this spectrum is a mystery. All reports about how she cared for those dogs indicate that she worked for dog trainers and vets, and knew how to train and care for her dogs. They got excellent care. Until recently when events in her life were such that she could not keep them with her, so she stuck them in outdoor pens at her father’s and visited them not even Daily. With her father refusing to take the responsibility or care of them. Probably part of Deal she struck to get him to allow her to House the dogs. there. I’m sure she looked at this as temporary and intended to get her dogs back into a home and life with her again.

How much the change in life was part of what led her dogs to attack her, if indeed they were what initiated an attacking on Bethany, we don’t know. I hope LE have very competent folks doing the investigation, including the forensics, so that human intervention in this killing is ruled out. I don’t believe at this point it is despite LE statements to the contrary.

I have relatives who are struggling economically that have numerous pets. The animals seem to have s good quality of life. They simply do not get the vet care, however, if expensive health issues arise. Cant afford so they are put down if they get ailments that make care for them too difficult. But all of their pets are clean, well groomed, look healthy and happy, well behaved. Some are Pitbulls, yes, but none are aggressive though they do tend to have strong prey drives. I think these dogs are not the pit mixes that will attacking other animals and people because of the quality and type of care they are getting. Not so with those that were gotten to be tough and cool, not getting the discipline and training these dogs are getting.