VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #4

[AndresEscobar]

Why the hate for this Rimer guy?

Because he's a hack and profits off fear and tragedies. Also, he sucks.

 

[Farmvillian]

Hmm Search Warrant 7. GSR on hands of all the victims. Anyone discussed this yet? GSR is Gun Shot Residue right? Or is that what they label the prints?

 

[dangrsmind]

Hmm Search Warrant 7. GSR on hands of all the victims. Anyone discussed this yet? GSR is Gun Shot Residue right? Or is that what they label the prints?

GSR = gun shot residue

 

[dangrsmind]

Nothing wrong with speculation, or presumuption, as that's what we're doing here. The note is mentioned in the warrants. I meant to document which warrants said what.

I'm not sure your blood evidence on sharpies theory works though. Blood could have gotten on the sharpies before or after the girls were murdered. Though, they would use the sharpies to determine whether he wrote the note.

If you wanted to determine who wrote the note, you'd want fingerprints off the instrument used to write the note. That's possibly the Sharpie. Also you might want writing samples from the possible authors, i.e. Sam's notebook.

 

[gxm]

the glasses where found in the bedroom with the bodies,I wonder about the blue sun dress ,isn't that something debra would more likely wear than emma? that was found in the den....i wished we knew for sure the "den" is the "breezeway"....and aparently the dress wasn't on a person,so did sam take it off?...or did he just use it to wipe something up?...that area "den" seems to be the only place where he attempted some sort of clean up maybe ?

A local mentioned that previous owners had used it as a den area, so that's why I'm guessing that the breezeway is the "den."

ETA: Maybe because it was more of a "common" area and not a bedroom, that might be why Sam tried to tidy it up.

 

[AndresEscobar]

There's been interesting discussion regarding the murder weapon. I'd like to address some of your theories with some of my own questions:

Most of the speculation against using the maul is our questioning Sam's degree of fitness. However, based on his appearance (which is what we're all judging him on), I see no reason to think that he is below average fitness. So the question is: could an average male swing a maul enough times to kill three people?

I think yes. Based on my knowledge of mauls, they tend to be about 8 pounds. Furthermore, my boyscout troop used mauls to split wood (although you had to do it under adult supervision). If a 12-14 year old boy can wield a maul with sufficient precision to split wood, an average adult male probably could also.

Sam's weight also makes me believe he is probably stronger than a below-average fitness male.

Another question I have regarding the ball peen hammer vs. maul preference is as from a death blow standpoint. A maul would probably only need one swing to be a death blow to a teenage girl. So, in reality, the murders could have theoretically be completed with 2 swings, then a swing when the mother entered.

A ball peen hammer also deliver a death blow, but I think it's less certain than a maul. A failed first strike would certainly awake the other person (people) in the room and cause the problem where the other people murdered would have defense wounds.

Also, the hammer is a more closed quarters weapon than the maul. The hammer is probably around a foot long, which would mean Sam would have to get close enough to the victims where, again, presumably a struggle would occur.

 

[AndresEscobar]

If you wanted to determine who wrote the note, you'd want fingerprints off the instrument used to write the note. That's possibly the Sharpie. Also you might want writing samples from the possible authors, i.e. Sam's notebook.

Also, finger prints on the note. I think doing an ink analysis could determine whether the note was some sort of forgery meant to deceive the girls/others.

 

[gxm]

Debra Kelley is the only one we see in glasses in photos. Where were the stained glasses found? Actually, if we can at least tentatively hook up any of the items with a specific person, we might be able to guess where the killing took place, whether there was movement of the body. Maybe I should go back to the docs and look at his, huh?

Do we have links to the search warrants? I'd love to download copies. All I have are reporters' versions of the search warrants, and in one news story it says that the "stained" eyeglasses were found in "one of the bedrooms" along with a stained chair.

I believe I've seen pictures of Emma with glasses. And didn't the pastor wear them too?

bolded by me:

The documents indicate all three female victims were found in one bedroom.

But evidence from the attacks were found in other rooms. In the den alone, for example, investigators found paper towels with red stains under a chair and under the rug, a stained blue sundress under a chair and a chunk of hair. In one of the bedrooms, investigators found stains on a chair and stained eyeglasses on the floor.

source link:
http://www.wtvr.com/news/wtvr-farmville-indictments-continued,0,1321614.story

 

[dangrsmind]

Also, finger prints on the note. I think doing an ink analysis could determine whether the note was some sort of forgery meant to deceive the girls/others.

Right on the fingerprints. I'm not sure what you mean by analysis of the ink. You can do a few different things to identify the ink, i.e. gas chromatography, that would allow you to determine that it was a Sharpie that wrote the note. However, since all Sharpies contain the same chemicals it would be impossible I think to say precisely which Sharpie specifically wrote the note by this method.

Most Sharpies are soft tip marking pens, so I'd look to imperfections in the writing tip itself which would be visible in the written lines under magnification.

 

[AndresEscobar]

Hmm Search Warrant 7. GSR on hands of all the victims. Anyone discussed this yet? GSR is Gun Shot Residue right? Or is that what they label the prints?

I'm going to say it's a GSR wipe or other type of test used to determine whether there was gun short residue on their hands. There's nothing to suggest the involvement of a gun from anything we've read. Also, the warrants don't list any guns, spent casings, bullets, or bullet holes. Furthermore, a gunshot would have caused enough noise to perhaps rouse a neighbor or twl.

 

[dangrsmind]

There's been interesting discussion regarding the murder weapon. I'd like to address some of your theories with some of my own questions:

Most of the speculation against using the maul is our questioning Sam's degree of fitness. However, based on his appearance (which is what we're all judging him on), I see no reason to think that he is below average fitness. So the question is: could an average male swing a maul enough times to kill three people?

I think yes. Based on my knowledge of mauls, they tend to be about 8 pounds. Furthermore, my boyscout troop used mauls to split wood (although you had to do it under adult supervision). If a 12-14 year old boy can wield a maul with sufficient precision to split wood, an average adult male probably could also.

Sam's weight also makes me believe he is probably stronger than a below-average fitness male.

Another question I have regarding the ball peen hammer vs. maul preference is as from a death blow standpoint. A maul would probably only need one swing to be a death blow to a teenage girl. So, in reality, the murders could have theoretically be completed with 2 swings, then a swing when the mother entered.

A ball peen hammer also deliver a death blow, but I think it's less certain than a maul. A failed first strike would certainly awake the other person (people) in the room and cause the problem where the other people murdered would have defense wounds.

Also, the hammer is a more closed quarters weapon than the maul. The hammer is probably around a foot long, which would mean Sam would have to get close enough to the victims where, again, presumably a struggle would occur.

A hammer is a rather nasty weapon as is a wood splitting maul. In either case, IMO, a single blow delivered with sufficient force would likely kill someone or at the very least render them unconscious. I've previously posted some links to forensic photographs that show some of the effects of hammer blows for example. A single blow can crack the skull or even punch a hole in the skull and enter the brain. Again it depends on the force used as well as the weight of the hammer.

There are a fair number of forensic text books available on the Internet. Check Google books or go back and find my previous links if you want to delve into this a bit further.

 

[AndresEscobar]

Right on the fingerprints. I'm not sure what you mean by analysis of the ink. You can do a few different things to identify the ink, i.e. gas chromatography, that would allow you to determine that it was a Sharpie that wrote the note. However, since all Sharpies contain the same chemicals it would be impossible I think to say precisely which Sharpie specifically wrote the note by this method.

Most Sharpies are soft tip marking pens, so I'd look to imperfections in the writing tip itself which would be visible in the written lines under magnification.

Thin layer chromatography, which is the only ink forensics test which which i've had experience. There are non-destructive tests too.

While I'm not certain every sharpie uses the same ink (i'd think there would have to be some variation in different sharpies produced in different areas), they could determine with a fair degree of certainty that the soft tip marking pen of that certain color in the note was most likely the one found on the floor of the house based on the ink and also those imperfections you mentioned.

 

[AndresEscobar]

A hammer is a rather nasty weapon as is a wood splitting maul. In either case, IMO, a single blow delivered with sufficient force would likely kill someone or at the very least render them unconscious. I've previously posted some links to forensic photographs that show some of the effects of hammer blows for example. A single blow can crack the skull or even punch a hole in the skull and enter the brain. Again it depends on the force used as well as the weight of the hammer.

There are a fair number of forensic text books available on the Internet. Check Google books or go back and find my previous links if you want to delve into this a bit further.

I've read a few, and still have several. Though, I'm having trouble reconciling the lack of defensive marks with a close proximity weapon such as a hammer. Unless, Sam was quick enough to hit girl #1, then hit girl#2 before girl #2 really regained her composure before realizing someone was coming towards her and swinging a weapon.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Why the hate for this Rimer guy?

Well IMO he is more about HYSTERIA than actually talking, teaching and learning about the occult.

 

[dangrsmind]

Thin layer chromatography, which is the only ink forensics test which which i've had experience. There are non-destructive tests too.

While I'm not certain every sharpie uses the same ink (i'd think there would have to be some variation in different sharpies produced in different areas), they could determine with a fair degree of certainty that the soft tip marking pen of that certain color in the note was most likely the one found on the floor of the house based on the ink and also those imperfections you mentioned.

I've done some work with examining printed documents, but not text written with pens, mostly using magnification. You can differentiate laser printing, ink jet printing, and so forth just be examining the ink under magnification in many cases. We could also identify specific printers in some cases by looking for and decoding the "docucolor dots" as well as various unique imperfections in the printing process, fonts, and other aspects of printed documents.

One non-destructive chemical test we looked at was Raman spectroscopy, but there we were looking at identifying the material composition of a complex laminated material that included inks. I got demos of some very fancy devices, but we decided not to pursue this path.

Edited to add: I'd still be skeptical you could differentiate individual Sharpies by chemical analysis, but clearly not my expertise. I do know that you can identify imperfections on the writing tip in the written line in many cases.

 

[Wes]

Because he is spreading fear about other people's legitimate and constitutionally protected religious practices and he seeks to profit from it?

Because his understanding is simplistic, limited, and at least partially inaccurate?

Because he includes commonly used religious symbols (i.e. The Star of David) in his list of occult symbols?

Because he knows much less than anyone that did even minimal research on the Internet and yet calls himself an "occult expert"?

Because he apparently hasn't even been given access to the crime scene and yet is holding a "town hall" meeting in Farmville to opine on the case?

Thanks. I've never heard of him until reading his name in this thread. I read on here someone calling him a 'religious fundie' and didn't know if that was a source of some of the objections towards him. I would be interested in hearing a recap of his "townhall" to see what he actually says. If it is more to do with a broader awareness of the satanic occult or if he delves and focuses more on this case.

 

[Wes]

Well IMO he is more about HYSTERIA than actually talking, teaching and learning about the occult.

I have no problem with someone who wants to spread awareness regarding occults. But if he's just trying to make a buck off a horrible crime like this, then that's another story. But I do think I saw where the seminar was 'free'.

As for his 'expertise', I'd have to research him more. But I'm sure much of his presentation is rather basic and probably just touches the surface.

 

[Claudia]

Why the hate for this Rimer guy?

Because he uses the term "teenage dabbling".

 

[maunsapt]

...maybe the "immersing in dark stuff" has to do with pain as a relief,danger and paximus talked about that earlier in the thread...and it really made me think,i used to cut when i was in my teens and headbanging really works too,I don't know...but back to sam i feel as though he had rage in him for a really long time,that x-box profile where he states that is from 2005....i think since parents aren't doing their job anymore,schools should..why aren't there classes on empathy and anger management and stuff like that starting in elementary?...who cares about math?...needing a calculator never killed anyone...

OT, responding here to claudicici (sp)as a teacher, we are drilled from our administrators to get those damn test scores in reading and math to a high mark, that is their primary goal. forget the emotional aspects each student has. but, for me, its hard to abide by that mentality, cause the emotional aspect of each student is what needs to be reached before they can learn anything, much less retain information. especially if they are in a 'flight or fight' mode of survival. i hear what you are saying Claudici.
in society today, it's become a reality that the home life isn't very stable anymore and it's looked upon the teacher to teach those skills. Yes, there are those that still hold onto high morals and values, but its a rarity. at least where i live.

 

[AndresEscobar]

(respectfully snipped)

Edited to add: I'd still be skeptical you could differentiate individual Sharpies by chemical analysis, but clearly not my expertise. I do know that you can identify imperfections on the writing tip in the written line in many cases.

Of course, it'd be difficult to differentiate between the inks of sharpies of all the same color, same manufacture and same "batch" so to speak. I'd be willing to bet you could between sharpies manufactured in different plants, or even different years, based on the chemical make up of the pens.

However, if the note was written in, say, pink ink with a soft pointed marker, and that was the only pink sharpie in the house, or they found a few pink markers in the house, they could say with a reasonable degree of certainty whether or not each one was used in the writing of the note.

All evidence is presented in a "reasonable degree of certainty" matter. Fingerprints, DNA, Ink, Semen, etc.