VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #7

[dangrsmind]

You missed Obama and the seeds and all in that. Geesh Pax and Dang. are slipping!

I guess they discontinued those Obama Chia heads for being racist? I missed that story...

And now I have to wonder about the whole chia family.

http://www.laughparty.com/funny-pictures/Chia--Saddam-935.jpg

Also, FYI, you can not grow marijuana on your chia pet so don't even try it.

 

[NativeGirl]

In theory ok but in practice there is a lot more to it because who has the right to make that decision? Who holds the right to decide whether one should live or die?

Also how do you define murder? Killing innocent people not in self defense? Was Hiroshima murder? When we bomb cities and kill innocent women and children is that murder and who should be held be responsible for that.

To take someone's life without a just cause. Killing is not wrong. But murder is. There are just reasons to kill someone. Let's not get on Hiroshima we are talking about Sam.. You said When We?? I never killed anyone.. So I can't speak on that...

 

[PAXIMUS]

That particular beast is guaranteed to never kill again. Works every time.
The electric or drug bill should be sent to their families. As a reminder to future generations. Make it a nice one, though, suitable for framing.

See the only problem with this mentality is that it is exactly what we have been doing for thousands of years and IT DOES NOT WORK. So how long do we continue to the same thing over and over, knowing it doesnt work, yet expecting different results, before we are willing to entertain new ideas and embrace PROGRESS?

The stats are simple.

We live in a culture with more violent media than any other time.

We also live in a society that punishes its criminals less harshly than any before it.

Yet.....

Crime is DOWN not up.


When will people get it through their heads that medical and mental health science has progressed beyond the days of feeding criminals to the lions, we now understand criminal behavior better than we ever have and WE KNOW that HARSH PUNISHMENT does nothing to prevent it, nothing at all. We still do not know exactly what works but we do know what doesnt.

 

[dangrsmind]

In theory ok but in practice there is a lot more to it because who has the right to make that decision? Who holds the right to decide whether one should live or die?

Also how do you define murder? Killing innocent people not in self defense? Was Hiroshima murder? When we bomb cities and kill innocent women and children is that murder and who should be held be responsible for that.

There is a legal definition of murder and there are ethical definitions. But they are not the same.

Legally a soldier is not held responsible for killing accidentally during a war whereas a civilian who accidentally killed someone in a similar manner might very well be tried for manslaughter. The reasons for this exemption involve arguments about nations and their rights to self defense. But personally I don't recall any exceptions or fine print in the 10 commandments.

 

[PAXIMUS]

To take someone's life without a just cause. Killing is not wrong. But murder is. There are just reasons to kill someone. Let's not get on Hiroshima we are talking about Sam.. You said When We?? I never killed anyone.. So I can't speak on that...

If I know Sam wants to kill people and I buy him a gun am I not just as guilty.

Consider where your tax dollars go and then decide if you have ever killed anyone or not.

 

[PAXIMUS]

There is a legal definition of murder and there are ethical definitions. But they are not the same.

Legally a soldier is not held responsible for killing accidentally during a war whereas a civilian who accidentally killed someone in a similar manner might very well be tried for manslaughter. The reasons for this exemption involve arguments about nations and their rights to self defense. But personally I don't recall any exceptions or fine print in the 10 commandments.

Sure I am aware of that but it is still hypocricy no matter how you look at it.

 

[NativeGirl]

See the only problem with this mentality is that it is exactly what we have been doing for thousands of years and IT DOES NOT WORK. So how long do we continue to the same thing over and over, knowing it doesnt work, yet expecting different results, before we are willing to entertain new ideas and embrace PROGRESS?

The stats are simple.

We live in a culture with more violent media than any other time.

We also live in a society that punishes its criminals less harshly than any before it.

Yet.....

Crime is DOWN not up.


When will people get it through their heads that medical and mental health science has progressed beyond the days of feeding criminals to the lions, we now understand criminal behavior better than we ever have and WE KNOW that HARSH PUNISHMENT does nothing to prevent it, nothing at all. We still do not know exactly what works but we do know what doesnt.

It would just make killing people easy and get more off the hook. I disagree.. but people do see things different, I am just not one of those.. It's eye for an eye in my case.. Maybe it's because I'm from VA and the way I was brought up.

 

[NativeGirl]

If I know Sam wants to kill people and I buy him a gun am I not just as guilty.

Consider where your tax dollars go and then decide if you have ever killed anyone or not.

Well you did not pull the tigger so I would say No.

 

[dangrsmind]

See the only problem with this mentality is that it is exactly what we have been doing for thousands of years and IT DOES NOT WORK. So how long do we continue to the same thing over and over, knowing it doesnt work, yet expecting different results, before we are willing to entertain new ideas and embrace PROGRESS?

The stats are simple.

We live in a culture with more violent media than any other time.

We also live in a society that punishes its criminals less harshly than any before it.

Yet.....

Crime is DOWN not up.


When will people get it through their heads that medical and mental health science has progressed beyond the days of feeding criminals to the lions, we now understand criminal behavior better than we ever have and WE KNOW that HARSH PUNISHMENT does nothing to prevent it, nothing at all. We still do not know exactly what works but we do know what doesnt.

Right. We discussed the amazing drop in violent crime in the United States in the very early threads. The facts here are contrary to many of the most cherished beliefs. For example there is more violent media, and more realistic and interactive violent media, but less real world violence. Fact.

San Francisco has had a 50% year over year decrease in homicides this past year as one example. The small number of places where this is not happening are the exceptions and they are notable. E.g. Farmville. See http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/local/crime/article/HOMI10_20100109-221204/316521/ which points out that even the city of Richmond has seen a recent decrease in violence.

 

[AndresEscobar]

you murder someone and take away their life, you deserve to die to me its as simple as that.

I'm not really looking to debate this, it's just a fundamental difference of opinion. I respect your opinion and we can all still be friends.

ETA: I believe in the death penalty in certain instances, specifically terrorism and mass murders. What troubles me most about the death penalty is how often they get the wrong guy. Those numbers are startling.

 

[dangrsmind]

See the only problem with this mentality is that it is exactly what we have been doing for thousands of years and IT DOES NOT WORK. So how long do we continue to the same thing over and over, knowing it doesnt work, yet expecting different results, before we are willing to entertain new ideas and embrace PROGRESS?

The stats are simple.

We live in a culture with more violent media than any other time.

We also live in a society that punishes its criminals less harshly than any before it.

Yet.....

Crime is DOWN not up.


When will people get it through their heads that medical and mental health science has progressed beyond the days of feeding criminals to the lions, we now understand criminal behavior better than we ever have and WE KNOW that HARSH PUNISHMENT does nothing to prevent it, nothing at all. We still do not know exactly what works but we do know what doesnt.

Right.

Simple answers to complicated questions are bad. As another example...

Consider the case of gun crime. Everyone agrees that gun crime is bad so many people want to make owning guns illegal, to restrict ownership, enforce stricter licensing, etc. However the reality is that gun control does not reduce gun crime. What does is locking up gun criminals who tend to repeat their crimes.

See http://www.minnpost.com/worldcsm/2010/01/11/14842/targeting_guns_to_reduce_violent_crime and http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Societ...more-crime-Not-in-2009-FBI-crime-report-shows

 

[dangrsmind]

Regardless of our debate here, this is the reality...

Va. likely to make more eligible for death penalty
December 31, 2009 - 12:42pm
By DENA POTTER
Associated Press Writer
RICHMOND, Va. - Death penalty expansion bills that were blocked in recent years likely will become law in Virginia under a new administration, making more people eligible for what is already the nation's second-busiest death chamber.

Since he took office in 2006, Gov. Timothy M. Kaine has vetoed 15 bills making everyone from murder accomplices to killers of on-duty auxiliary police or fire marshals eligible for the death penalty. Legislators have overridden some of Kaine's vetoes, and currently there are 15 crimes that are punishable by death in Virginia.

Republican Gov.-elect Bob McDonnell has said he will sign legislation to expand the death penalty, even though other states are restricting capital punishment or repealing it altogether.

Opponents argue expansion would be costly as the state grapples with billions in revenue shortfalls and increase the risk of sending an innocent person to death row.
...
http://www.wtop.com/?nid=25&sid=1853091

 

[PAXIMUS]

It would just make killing people easy and get more off the hook. I disagree.. but people do see things different, I am just not one of those.. It's eye for an eye in my case.. Maybe it's because I'm from VA and the way I was brought up.

And that is ok I dont think less of you for it or anything, we simply have a fundamental disagreement.

We both want less crime, all I am saying is that with our progress in mental health and medical science as well as a less harsh and more proactive and rebailitative approach to punishment we have actually seen crime rates drop INSPITE of the fact that we live in a society with more voilent media than ever before.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Right.

Simple answers to complicated questions are bad. As another example...

Consider the case of gun crime. Everyone agrees that gun crime is bad so many people want to make owning guns illegal, to restrict ownership, enforce stricter licensing, etc. However the reality is that gun control does not reduce gun crime. What does is locking up gun criminals who tend to repeat their crimes.

See http://www.minnpost.com/worldcsm/2010/01/11/14842/targeting_guns_to_reduce_violent_crime and http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Societ...more-crime-Not-in-2009-FBI-crime-report-shows

Exactly and this is where I cross over from one political polarity to the other. I would be considered liberal on most issues but when it comes to gun control I dont support it at all, it is nonsense. The people turning their guns in are the people who follow the law anyway, those who dont follow the law will not be turning their guns in and you have a society run b y armed criminals and nobody armed to defend themselves from them.

 

[ziggy]

correct.I don't think she's a bad person.I'm sorry about your children but again I'm sure they have a reason.

They are my sister's kids and with exactly the same parents who never divorced and grew up in the same home from when they were babies, 3 out of 5 are druggies and criminals while the other two CHOSE to take a different path.

People make choices...it's not like they can't help it.

 

[PAXIMUS]

They are my sister's kids and with exactly the same parents who never divorced and grew up in the same home from when they were babies, 3 out of 5 are druggies and criminals while the other two CHOSE to take a different path.

People make choices...it's not like they can't help it.

There is a very good chance they are using drugs because they are self medicating away a chemical imbalance in their brains, such as bipolar disorder or some other organic mental illness. I dont think very many people make the decision to become drug addicts on skid row, there is usually a reason for them being that way and even those with the best childhoods are not immune.

Since bipolar disorder does run in families this would certainly explain the behavior of these 3 relatives of yours. I do not think you can dismiss this as easily as you may first wish to.

They certainly do have a choice to go get some help and I would never make any excuses for them for not making that decision and instead deciding to self medicate but still, I doubt they are just using drugs for the **** of it in fact every druggie I have known was a self medicator of some sort and they all had mental health issues.

Regardless, addiction itself is a disease and I dont think it is right to call sick people "criminal assholes." These people are sick, they are not themselves and no amount of browbeating, insulting or name calling will help them. Its going to take a very strong person to help them, someone who is strong enough not to judge them but who will take the time to help them see what the drugs have done to them and how sick they have become because of the choices they have made. Addiction is a medical issue and since none of us are doctors its probably not easy for us to understand.

In any case this is yet another example of a fundamental disagreement, I think no less of you because you feel this way but I feel very strongly that you are wrong and that your love for them has led you astray. Detach yourself from the situation and stand back and see just how sick and in need of medical attention these kids are and you might change your mind about them.

Addiction can run in families and skip generations, their parents may have done a perfect job raising them but if they inherited a bad gene there is nothing anyone can do about that. Genetics do not discriminate and I think you would be wise to reconsider how you feel about them with this in mind before you simply write them off as ungrateful criminal assholes who had it all and threw it away. Its NEVER that simple my friend.

 

[DoctorZ]

Regardless of our debate here, this is the reality...

Va. likely to make more eligible for death penalty
December 31, 2009 - 12:42pm
By DENA POTTER
Associated Press Writer
RICHMOND, Va. - Death penalty expansion bills that were blocked in recent years likely will become law in Virginia under a new administration, making more people eligible for what is already the nation's second-busiest death chamber.

Since he took office in 2006, Gov. Timothy M. Kaine has vetoed 15 bills making everyone from murder accomplices to killers of on-duty auxiliary police or fire marshals eligible for the death penalty. Legislators have overridden some of Kaine's vetoes, and currently there are 15 crimes that are punishable by death in Virginia.

Republican Gov.-elect Bob McDonnell has said he will sign legislation to expand the death penalty, even though other states are restricting capital punishment or repealing it altogether.

Opponents argue expansion would be costly as the state grapples with billions in revenue shortfalls and increase the risk of sending an innocent person to death row.
...
http://www.wtop.com/?nid=25&sid=1853091

I had previously posted an article about fewer death sentences in Virginia. I can't find the article now, if I do I will add it. It made it seem that people were reluctant to sentence others to death. I wonder if expanding the number of crimes punishable by death will actually lead to more executions. While this will lead to more opportunities for a death sentence, are people just not as willing to give that punishment now?

Richmond Times-Dispatch

Another article that references fewer death sentences in Virginia

 

[DoctorZ]

Exactly and this is where I cross over from one political polarity to the other. I would be considered liberal on most issues but when it comes to gun control I dont support it at all, it is nonsense. The people turning their guns in are the people who follow the law anyway, those who dont follow the law will not be turning their guns in and you have a society run b y armed criminals and nobody armed to defend themselves from them.

I'm opposed to gun control. I do not want the government to tell me whether or not I can arm myself.

Without guns, what will I do when the zombies come?

 

[ziggy]

Agreed but be careful with that mindset around here, it will get you in trouble.

You won't be in trouble with me! I thank God there are very compassionate people with different mindsets because it is what keeps things balanced. And just as it's important for me to voice how I feel; I certainly feel it's necessary and appropriate for others to do the same regardless of what view I may have, so I can only speak for myself but I don't think that's true Pax.

And besides, since when did being in the minority bother either of you???:crazy:

 

[PAXIMUS]

You won't be in trouble with me! I thank God there are very compassionate people with different mindsets because it is what keeps things balanced. And just as it's important for me to voice how I feel; I certainly feel it's necessary and appropriate for others to do the same regardless of what view I may have, so I can only speak for myself but I don't think that's true Pax.

And besides, since when did being in the minority bother either of you???:crazy:

Well I didnt mean here among all you fine peoples. I meant in general, ive gotten time outs (several) for expressing such a viewpoint in other threads and it resulting in personal attacks on me and me defending myself from that etc.

I actually love hearing your viewpoint, Ziggy, we dont agree on everything but its fun to share how we see things with eachother and not let it become personal.