VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #7

[PAXIMUS]

I don't believe I insinuated that.

When we decide through our laws that an execution is a reasonable means of dealing with killers such as Dahmer, I don't have a problem with it. In a different jurisdiction he may have been sentenced to death. When an individual takes it upon themselves to administer justice that is not good public policy; so yes, he's a murderer.

Does that mean the outcome was necessarily bad? What do you think? You think we'd be better off somehow feeding and housing JD? I can't say that I do.

Well for me it isnt about us being better off feeding him or whatever, it simply comes down to me refusing to accept state sanctioned killing. I would rather feed him then give big brother that sort of power, yes. To me thast a no brainer but maybe not to others who trust their elected leaders more than I do. I have a healthy distrust for government and authority in general and I am not willing to give it any more power than it needs.

 

[dnrslucky1]

I don't believe I insinuated that.

When we decide through our laws that an execution is a reasonable means of dealing with killers such as Dahmer, I don't have a problem with it. In a different jurisdiction he may have been sentenced to death. When an individual takes it upon themselves to administer justice that is not good public policy; so yes, he's a murderer.

Does that mean the outcome was necessarily bad? What do you think? You think we'd be better off somehow feeding and housing JD? I can't say that I do.

I thought it was cheaper to house and feed a prisoner than put them to death. I could be wrong. But if this is true, I see no reason to murder a murderer other to to feed someones ego.

 

[PAXIMUS]

I thought it was cheaper to house and feed a prisoner than put them to death. I could be wrong. But if this is true, I see no reason to murder a murderer other to to feed someones ego.

A DP case is considerably more expensive than LWOP. By millions of dollars in fact.

 

[peace_gurl]

I NEED that hat.

No, wait!! Dreads! That's what I need!!!

You could get hair extensions like Kate Gosselin did.

Nice hair Ziggy, much better look.

 

[ziggy]

A DP case is considerably more expensive than LWOP. By millions of dollars in fact.

And all that money was saved when a prisoner stepped in...good luck? bad luck?

The appeals process we offer is expensive and exhausting but I think you would agree it's better than executing an innocent person.

I don't base my decisions on cost - i don't bargain shop plastic surgery or morality.

 

[PAXIMUS]

And all that money was saved when a prisoner stepped in...good luck? bad luck?

The appeals process we offer is expensive and exhausting but I think you would agree it's better than executing an innocent person.

I don't base my decisions on cost - i don't bargain shop plastic surgery or morality.

Thats all true but I would do away with the DP altogether, the thought of strapping a human being to a chair and electrocuting them or injecting them with a lethal dose of narcotics is just simply barbaric IMO. Its a dark ages mentality.

 

[peace_gurl]

Thats all true but I would do away with the DP altogether, the thought of strapping a human being to a chair and electrocuting them or injecting them with a lethal dose of narcotics is just simply barbaric IMO. Its a dark ages mentality.

The thought of hacking up FOUR people is barbaric to me.
A lethal cocktail sounds like the easy way out to me. I think Sam deserves what he gave.

 

[NativeGirl]

I wonder where Sam got money for his lawyer??? he is not a public defender.

Mr. Bowen, one of the firm's founding partners, is a highly regarded and well-respected criminal defense attorney who is sought throughout the Commonwealth of Virginia to represent clients. Colleagues point to Mr. Bowen's skills, integrity and credibility as the main reasons why other lawyers, judges and prosecutors hold him in such high esteem. He is as dedicated to the law in a simple traffic case as he is in a high-profile capital murder case and devotes his full attention to ensuring that all his clients get the best representation.

A graduate of Virginia Polytechnic Institute, Mr. Bowen obtained his law degree from the University of Richmond's T.C. Williams School of Law. He was admitted to the Virginia bar in 1977, is a member of the Richmond and Chesterfield Bar Associations, the Virginia Trial Lawyers Association and the VCCDA. He is admitted to practice in both state and federal courts throughout the United States.

Mr. Bowen, who served in the U.S. Army Special Forces, believes that helping people with their problems is the best part of his work as an attorney and considers it a privilege to work to ensure that justice is done. He has served on the Virginia Bar Counsel, as well as on other Bar organizations. Since 1987, he has enjoyed an AV rating with Martindale Hubbell, and has been named a SuperLawyer by Richmond Magazine.

Email: cbowen@bowenlawfirm.com




bowenlawfirm.com

 

[PAXIMUS]

I wonder where Sam got money for his lawyer??? he is not a public defender.

Mr. Bowen, one of the firm's founding partners, is a highly regarded and well-respected criminal defense attorney who is sought throughout the Commonwealth of Virginia to represent clients. Colleagues point to Mr. Bowen's skills, integrity and credibility as the main reasons why other lawyers, judges and prosecutors hold him in such high esteem. He is as dedicated to the law in a simple traffic case as he is in a high-profile capital murder case and devotes his full attention to ensuring that all his clients get the best representation.

A graduate of Virginia Polytechnic Institute, Mr. Bowen obtained his law degree from the University of Richmond's T.C. Williams School of Law. He was admitted to the Virginia bar in 1977, is a member of the Richmond and Chesterfield Bar Associations, the Virginia Trial Lawyers Association and the VCCDA. He is admitted to practice in both state and federal courts throughout the United States.

Mr. Bowen, who served in the U.S. Army Special Forces, believes that helping people with their problems is the best part of his work as an attorney and considers it a privilege to work to ensure that justice is done. He has served on the Virginia Bar Counsel, as well as on other Bar organizations. Since 1987, he has enjoyed an AV rating with Martindale Hubbell, and has been named a SuperLawyer by Richmond Magazine.

Email: cbowen@bowenlawfirm.com




bowenlawfirm.com

The judge appointed the lawyer so he is paid by the state same as a public defender would be. The judge likely saw the possibility that it would be a DP case and he wanted Sam to have the best possible representation and not just a public defender. Sam's lawyer is one of the better criminal defense lawyers in the state from what I have heard. Its common practice in high profile cases for the court to appoint a private attorney to the defendent and the attorney signs a contract to bill the state or county for his services.

 

[peace_gurl]

There is a legal definition of murder and there are ethical definitions. But they are not the same.

Legally a soldier is not held responsible for killing accidentally during a war whereas a civilian who accidentally killed someone in a similar manner might very well be tried for manslaughter. The reasons for this exemption involve arguments about nations and their rights to self defense. But personally I don't recall any exceptions or fine print in the 10 commandments.

Why would you want to debate the Bible? Did not think you believed in the Bible, correct me if I am wrong.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Why would you want to debate the Bible? Did not think you believed in the Bible, correct me if I am wrong.

I dont see how one can be a Christian and support the DP. To me that is impossible, the two are incompatible in all ways.

 

[NativeGirl]

I dont see how one can be a Christian and support the DP. To me that is impossible, the two are incompatible in all ways.

I am a Christian and for the DP..
like the Bible says eye for an eye.

Genesis 9:6 says it plain as day.

KJV Genesis 9:6 "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."

Bible in Basic English Genesis 9:6 "Whoever takes a man's life, by man will his life be taken; because God made man in his image."

 

[PAXIMUS]

I am a Christian and for the DP..
like the Bible says eye for an eye.

Genesis 9:6 says it plain as day.

KJV Genesis 9:6 "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."

Bible in Basic English Genesis 9:6 "Whoever takes a man's life, by man will his life be taken; because God made man in his image."

Yes but that isnt what Jesus and the NT teach in fact Jesus was sacrificed so that one didnt need to follow the old laws anymore. Its we Jews who believe in the OT laws, not Christians, they believe in forgiveness and turning the other cheeck etc.

If youre still under the OT law whats the point of Jesus sacrifice, Paul and Jesus both make it clear that you are no longer under those Laws, his blood was shed to remove that yoke from around your neck. In Jesus all sins, even murder, are forgiven.

 

[NativeGirl]

Yes but that isnt what Jesus and the NT teach in fact Jesus was sacrificed so that one didnt need to follow the old laws anymore. Its we Jews who believe in the OT laws, not Christians, they believe in forgiveness and turning the other cheeck etc.

So you're saying that God changes? According to my Bible, it says that God never changes therefore His word doesn't change.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

And since Jesus is God
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word(JESUS), and the Word(JESUS) was with God, and the Word(JESUS) was God.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word(JESUS), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

And here is a verse that shows Jesus was present in the Old Testement

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Also Jesus was present in the Beginning.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

So therefore if Jesus is the same forever and he is God and Never changes, that also mean that his word never changes. Not even this.

KJV Genesis 9:6 "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."

 

[peace_gurl]

Regardless of our debate here, this is the reality...

Va. likely to make more eligible for death penalty
December 31, 2009 - 12:42pm
By DENA POTTER
Associated Press Writer
RICHMOND, Va. - Death penalty expansion bills that were blocked in recent years likely will become law in Virginia under a new administration, making more people eligible for what is already the nation's second-busiest death chamber.

Since he took office in 2006, Gov. Timothy M. Kaine has vetoed 15 bills making everyone from murder accomplices to killers of on-duty auxiliary police or fire marshals eligible for the death penalty. Legislators have overridden some of Kaine's vetoes, and currently there are 15 crimes that are punishable by death in Virginia.

Republican Gov.-elect Bob McDonnell has said he will sign legislation to expand the death penalty, even though other states are restricting capital punishment or repealing it altogether.

Opponents argue expansion would be costly as the state grapples with billions in revenue shortfalls and increase the risk of sending an innocent person to death row.
...
http://www.wtop.com/?nid=25&sid=1853091

I am so thankful for Republican Gov.-elect Bob McDonnell. Hip Hip Hooray!

 

[NativeGirl]

If youre still under the OT law whats the point of Jesus sacrifice, Paul and Jesus both make it clear that you are no longer under those Laws, his blood was shed to remove that yoke from around your neck. In Jesus all sins, even murder, are forgiven.

God has never revoked the death penalty. Jesus said He did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfil it (Matthew 5:17). And the Apostle Paul preached about the government's right to invoke capital punishment on evildoers (Romans 13:1-5).

 

[PAXIMUS]

So you're saying that God changes? According to my Bible, it says that God never changes therefore His word doesn't change.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

And since Jesus is God
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word(JESUS), and the Word(JESUS) was with God, and the Word(JESUS) was God.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word(JESUS), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

And here is a verse that shows Jesus was present in the Old Testement

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Also Jesus was present in the Beginning.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

So therefore if Jesus is the same forever and he is God and Never changes, that also mean that his word never changes. Not even this.

KJV Genesis 9:6 "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."

Do you seriously believe that Jesus would have no problem with the DP?

One need not go as far as Jesus was willing to go, namely, to the point of sacrificing one's own life rather than returning evil for evil by taking up arms against those who were bent upon destroying him. One need not aspire to the higher calling of love, mercy, and forgiveness that Christ professed to see what is wrong with the capital punishment system. One only needs to accept the far more basic principles of fairness and equity to which the whole of humanity aspires in order to see the tragic faults of the death penalty as it is practiced in this country, and to put a stop to the killing, at the very least until serious reforms can be put into practice. And beyond that, for Christians who actually do profess to be imitators of the crucified one, supporting the death penalty is hypocritical at best, and possibly even an outright betrayal of Jesus himself imo.

Look at who Jesus hung out with: lepers, prostitutes, thieves—the throwaways of his day. If you call yourselves Jesus' disciples, you too have to keep ministering to the marginated, the throwaways, the lepers of today. And there are no more marginated, thrown-away, and leprous people in our society than death-row inmates.

 

[NativeGirl]

Do you seriously believe that Jesus would have no problem with the DP?

One need not go as far as Jesus was willing to go, namely, to the point of sacrificing one's own life rather than returning evil for evil by taking up arms against those who were bent upon destroying him. One need not aspire to the higher calling of love, mercy, and forgiveness that Christ professed to see what is wrong with the capital punishment system. One only needs to accept the far more basic principles of fairness and equity to which the whole of humanity aspires in order to see the tragic faults of the death penalty as it is practiced in this country, and to put a stop to the killing, at the very least until serious reforms can be put into practice. And beyond that, for Christians who actually do profess to be imitators of the crucified one, supporting the death penalty is hypocritical at best, and possibly even an outright betrayal of Jesus himself imo.

Look at who Jesus hung out with: lepers, prostitutes, thieves—the throwaways of his day. If you call yourselves Jesus' disciples, you too have to keep ministering to the marginated, the throwaways, the lepers of today. And there are no more marginated, thrown-away, and leprous people in our society than death-row inmates.

Jesus had no problem with the DP...The New Testament says..

Jesus said, "For God commanded, saying, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.'" - Matthew 15:4

And as Jesus hung on the cross, one of the criminals mocked Him.

"But the other, answering, rebuked him (the other criminal) saying, 'Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.'" - Luke 23:40-41

In that passage of scripture the criminal says that they, meaning himself and the other criminal, are being justly punished, being put to death for their crimes. And when you look at the apostle Paul in the book of Acts, he says,

"For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them. I appeal to Caesar." - Acts 25:11

For God established the governing authorities (Romans 13:1), and it is to them the responsibility of putting those to death who commit capital crimes.

"For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil." - Romans 13:3-4

And finally, it is stated in the book of Revelation,

"He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints." - Revelation 13:9-10


Well, there you have it. Old and New Testament support for the death penalty. God does support it. If you have any doubts, just pick up your Bible. It's all right there for you to read.

 

[dangrsmind]

So you're saying that God changes? According to my Bible, it says that God never changes therefore His word doesn't change.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

And since Jesus is God
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word(JESUS), and the Word(JESUS) was with God, and the Word(JESUS) was God.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word(JESUS), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

And here is a verse that shows Jesus was present in the Old Testement

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Also Jesus was present in the Beginning.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

So therefore if Jesus is the same forever and he is God and Never changes, that also mean that his word never changes. Not even this.

KJV Genesis 9:6 "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."

Perhaps God doesn't change, but the book you are referencing sure has changed quite a bit. And the KJ bible isn't a very reliable source for the old testament which was originally written in Hebrew. Even Thomas Jefferson thought it was a bad translation.

In the old testament it specifically states that the penalty for having sex with someone that is engaged to another person, is for both of the parties to be stoned to death. And yet Jesus says, no don't do this unless you yourself are without sin.

Jesus actually violates the old testament laws.

 

[NativeGirl]

Perhaps God doesn't change, but the book you are referencing sure has changed quite a bit. And the KJ bible isn't a very reliable source for the old testament which was originally written in Hebrew. Even Thomas Jefferson thought it was a bad translation.

In the old testament it specifically states that the penalty for having sex with someone that is engaged to another person, is for both of the parties to be stoned to death. And yet Jesus says, no don't do this unless you yourself are without sin.

Jesus actually violates the old testament laws.

But, you say, what about the women taken in the very act of adultery. This story is told in John 8:3-11. The scribes and Pharisees sought to find something against Jesus. Their method of operation was to ask a question or present a problem in which either solution would hurt Jesus (see several instances in Matthew 23). In this case, they presented the woman taken in adultery and reminded Jesus, “Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?” (v.5). If He upheld the law, the meek and lowly Jesus would be portrayed as cruel. If He made an exception to the law, He would be in favor of breaking the law. In either case, His bond with the people would be broken.

However, Jesus did the unexpected. He stooped down and wrote with His finger on the ground. What He wrote, we are not told. When the Pharisees insisted on an answer, He said, “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her” (v.7) and continued writing.

One interesting fact about this story: only the woman was brought. No man was accused. Yet, adultery is definitely a two-person sin. Is it possible that Jesus wrote Leviticus 20:10 on the ground? It says, “And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.” Notice, both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death. Not one, but both.

At any rate, the consciences of the accusers began to accuse their own hearts. One by one, beginning with the eldest, they slipped away until no man was there to accuse the woman. With no accusers, there was no required penalty. Jesus had used the occasion to point out the hypocrisy of the scribes and Pharisees while at the same time showing His love to the unloved. He told the woman to go and sin no more.