VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #8

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Speaking of something "not sitting right"... Reading you here today, Andres, I'd almost think you have somewhat of a personal vendetta against this other poster. I can't imagine why you would, and so I'm not saying you do, but it comes across that way, to me. Just my assessment, from what you say.

I think as he explained earlier its simply his writing style in that he is very direct and to the point and not really friendly as such. Thats largely due to the fact that he is a lawyer and we dont deal well with things not in record as actual evidence.

If we met Andres in person we would probably see that he is alot more friendly and approachable than he seems on here and thats likely true of all of us.
 
Paximus, is it possible to obtain the police reports? Do they exist and are they available to the public? There is no imposed gag order here, so why wouldn't you be able to obtain them with press cred?
 
Pax- I don't think Sam ever really got the opportunity to figure it all out. There are many many people out there like that. Some throw their lives away. Some take others with them. 20 years old is when you just start living.
 
Lets have a show of hands here, just quote this post and say which option you pick:

1--Sam is a sociopath.

2--This was strictly a one time thing for Sam, a crime of passion where the perfect storm came together and he snapped but otherwise could have went his whole life without being a murderer.

3--Not enough information to draw a conclusion yet.


I am somewhere between 2 and 3 right now but leaning more towards crime of passion.

I am interested in what the rest of you think so please take a moment to participate.

Thanks.

I have to go with #3. I don't think he's a sociopath. However, I don't think this is a crime of passion. There was too much time for contemplation in there. I think the guy had problems beyond these choices.
 
Pax- I don't think Sam ever really got the opportunity to figure it all out. There are many many people out there like that. Some throw their lives away. Some take others with them. 20 years old is when you just start living.

He turned 21 in jail. He never even got to go have a beer at a bar legally.

My birthday is coming up on Thursday by the way.
 
I think Sam is a sociopath.

I also dont see how someone could snap in a 'crime of passion' and maul FOUR people.

Mauling is serious business and I can see someone snapping ( maybe ) and taking an axe to one person. But come on ! A whole row of people ?

I chop firewood on occasion and I have to stop and catch my breath after a few swings...........

So I can only imagine how it went with Sam. I'm really thinking he was digging it.



IMO it is the mauling part and the overall voilent nature of the crime that leads me to believe it was a crime of passion. Criminal profilers, of whom I have worked extensively with in my legal career, will often note that the more violent and henious the crime the more the perp loved and cared for the victim. I know that sounds crazy and it isnt the type of love and caring that you and I understand love and caring to be but profilers, in spite of what Tapu thinks about them, do know their **** and are often on the money more times than not when profiling a particular perp for any given crime and they will tell you that someone has to love and care very deeply for a person to inflict the kind of violent pain upon them as Sam did.

As for the other 3 murders, I agree that doesnt fit well with this theory but I believe they simply had to be killed to buy Sam more time so he could figure what he needed to do after he killed Emma, who I think went first or maybe after Mel and mom, as she was forced to watch him kill the other two, which again, would suggest a deeply inflicted pain within Sam and a crime of passion towards Emma.


I will repeat and I know how awful it sounds and this was even noted in the OJ murder, you have to really have a deep love for someone to do what Sam and possibly OJ did to their victims and like Ron Goldman, Mel, Mom and Dad just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time when this crime of passion was carried out.

The bottom line is we have not yet heard Sam's side of the story and he may have an explanation that shocks us all, and while it certainly wont justify what he did it may make us reconsider our positions about why he did it. We just dont know what happend in that home over that period of time he was there. The possibilities are endless, frankly.

I have written Sam extensively with a proposal to tell his side of the story when he is ready to tell it and Mary is working on that for me too, so hopefully someday we will have those answers but I do believe there are two sides to every story and Sam is entitled to tell his.
 
Paximus, is it possible to obtain the police reports? Do they exist and are they available to the public? There is no imposed gag order here, so why wouldn't you be able to obtain them with press cred?

They should be. I already presented my press credentials in an attempt to get some forensic serology information and they wouldnt release it. I will try tomorrow and see if I can get them to fax me the police report.

I had planned to do a lot more work on this case but with the baby born etc I have had to back off a little but I hope to get back on track for trial time and likely even get to Farmville to attend proceedings.

Which one of you are going to put me up and cook for me when I get there.:dance:
 
I understand the violence = passion argument, but is a maul really that "personal?" You can swing from a distance. It can do massive damage in one hit. What if it was one hit to the head for Emma. Would that still suggest the same level of caring?
 
Whoa Pax I feel compelled to jump in here regarding the personal nature of a killing versus a crime of passion.

It is true that the violence inflicted if a sort of "overkill" can give clues that the perp was intimately familiar with the victim, however, that only gives clue to who. The fact that someone familiar might also harbor deep resentment or just pure malice or that they might also spend considerable time contemplating killing the victim must be taken into consideration.

A crime of passion would be more instant and the fact he used the wood maul, which he would have had to go out to the back yard and procure, suggests WAY more contemplation.

I get what you are saying, but given the Syko Sam mentality complete with hatchet in hand pictures conveys a sense of contemplation imo. maybe not necessarily with those particular victims, but a sense of wanton and willful disregard in general for the value of human life. That's why I lean toward anti-social, or sociopathic tendancies.

In other words, I think the choice of weapon and manner of killing are more a consequence of Sam's mental imaging due to his love of horrocore than to his personal relationships with the victims. JMO.

There are also plenty of examples of stabbing and bloodshed and mayhem inflicted by killers who chose their victims randomly.

I don't doubt that Sam had some sort of grudge after being with Emma and things going south, but he did not just snap and kill girls in their sleep..isn't that considered lying in wait? (lying, laying, someone help me out with those please).
 
I think as he explained earlier its simply his writing style in that he is very direct and to the point and not really friendly as such. Thats largely due to the fact that he is a lawyer and we dont deal well with things not in record as actual evidence.

If we met Andres in person we would probably see that he is alot more friendly and approachable than he seems on here and thats likely true of all of us.



I usually find lawyers to be quite eloquent in explaining themselves. Both in person and in writing. I think a lawyer can also distinguish between things in or not in "record as actual evidence" from what a local person on here offers as something she heard. Is anyone else having any trouble finding the proper place to put, in their assessment, the rumors we've gotten to hear in these threads? It seems that we have established that these particular details are hearsay and local rumor. With that in mind now, can't we move on with discussing the possibilities they open up without further scrutinizing the source?
 
I understand the violence = passion argument, but is a maul really that "personal?" You can swing from a distance. It can do massive damage in one hit. What if it was one hit to the head for Emma. Would that still suggest the same level of caring?

So what is your theory, given what we have to work with, as to why he killed them? For fun, to live out his horrorcore dreams, he was a sociopath just waiting for the right opportunity, he was a bullied kid who finally pushed back?

I am not here to try and convince everyone that I am right, in fact what I hope to do is get everyone talking and debating and expressing what they feel whether they agree with my crime of passion theory or not.

Do share.
 
Whoa Pax I feel compelled to jump in here regarding the personal nature of a killing versus a crime of passion.

It is true that the violence inflicted if a sort of "overkill" can give clues that the perp was intimately familiar with the victim, however, that only gives clue to who. The fact that someone familiar might also harbor deep resentment or just pure malice or that they might also spend considerable time contemplating killing the victim must be taken into consideration.

A crime of passion would be more instant and the fact he used the wood maul, which he would have had to go out to the back yard and procure, suggests WAY more contemplation.

I get what you are saying, but given the Syko Sam mentality complete with hatchet in hand pictures conveys a sense of contemplation imo. maybe not necessarily with those particular victims, but a sense of wanton and willful disregard in general for the value of human life. That's why I lean toward anti-social, or sociopathic tendancies.

In other words, I think the choice of weapon and manner of killing are more a consequence of Sam's mental imaging due to his love of horrocore than to his personal relationships with the victims. JMO.

There are also plenty of examples of stabbing and bloodshed and mayhem inflicted by killers who chose their victims randomly.

I don't doubt that Sam had some sort of grudge after being with Emma and things going south, but he did not just snap and kill girls in their sleep..isn't that considered lying in wait? (lying, laying, someone help me out with those please).

All good points and I welcome them, this is exactly the kind of dialogue that makes this group so special. So do you suggest he went there with the intent to kill and if not what set him off, the rejection? That points to crime of passion of so doesnt it.
 
Where the hell is my Herione when I need her?
 
Budding young sociopath going for the girl.

Gets rejected and humiliated by the two girls.

Kills girlfriend girl, which wakes up girlfriend-girl's girlfriend, she runs out back, Sam kills her, too.

Mom gets killed. They're all in the bedroom. Getting photographed and video'd with Sam. Later, Dad arrives, gets killed.

In between there, Sam does as I described above in post where I first explored the sociopath scenario.
 
So what is your theory, given what we have to work with, as to why he killed them? For fun, to live out his horrorcore dreams, he was a sociopath just waiting for the right opportunity, he was a bullied kid who finally pushed back?

I am not here to try and convince everyone that I am right, in fact what I hope to do is get everyone talking and debating and expressing what they feel whether they agree with my crime of passion theory or not.

Do share.

I have not been able to come up with a theory that works for me yet.

My problem with the crime of passion idea is the timing. If he had grabbed the hammer and hit Emma while they were arguing, or shortly after whatever set him off, I would go with this idea. Waiting until they went to sleep gave him to time to have second thoughts, but he didn't. He could have left, but he didn't. From what we know, it also seems that he and Emma fought before going to Michigan, so there was a lot of time for him to cool off. If the girls kept bothering him, why did he go back with them?

The bullied kid who finally pushed back idea, I could somewhat buy. However, would it really be fighting back to teach someone a lesson while they slept? We don't know what actually happened in there so it could be possible I guess.

I would not be surprised if there was a drug and/or mental illness component we are missing here.

There is one thing you have said a few times that I don't quite get. You have said that he went to Virginia thinking Emma was his chance at a new life or something along those lines (forgive me if I am way off). Do you mean maybe he thought he was going to be able to stay there with her? Move to Farmville and get a job/leave California?
 
Our local Farmvillian source found this link...I haven't seen this before!



ts5.jpg


Here is a photo of our lone skinny cop outside the crime scene. Click here to read the story… http://www.southsidemessenger.com/articles/2009/09/25/news/top_stories/ts5.txt

you will see a mention of Steve Wall of the Farmville Herald in this story. Here is how the Walls fit into the picture.

Our local source tells me that
*****sorry this information, although public knowledge was removed at the request of the member here. ************
Our poster worked for Steve Wall at one time. Steve was on the scene because he was standing in the yard of the other Wall home, the one next door to the Kelly home, and that made the other paper editor angry.

Disclaimer!! Here's the unsubstantiated part:

***According to Steve, the smell was apparent when standing in the next door yard.
 
All good points and I welcome them, this is exactly the kind of dialogue that makes this group so special. So do you suggest he went there with the intent to kill and if not what set him off, the rejection? That points to crime of passion of so doesnt it.

No I don't suggest he went to VA with that intent or even back to the Kelly home after the festival with intent.

I am trying to distinguish between a true crime of passion and someone who is entrenched in a lifestyle and influenced by a belief system that would lead them justify killing someone simply because they were pissed off at them. From what I have read, the SKR types believe if someone hurts you you are justified in hurting them back. That is a character flaw in SAM, not the weakness of our human race in general when faced with a situation that arouses such passion that we are unable to think and simply react.

I think what you are implying is a diluted sense of a crime of passion, one that is wholly different than real, serious passion that warrants some mitigation of an offense from murder to manslaughter.
 
Speaking of something "not sitting right"... Reading you here today, Andres, I'd almost think you have somewhat of a personal vendetta against this other poster. I can't imagine why you would, and so I'm not saying you do, but it comes across that way, to me. Just my assessment, from what you say.

No one should take anything I say personally. I don't know anyone here so I can't have a personal vendetta against anyone. I'm attacking the theories and rumors, I'm not attacking anyone personally. But, if you guys aren't interested in analyzing bits of information critically, then I'll stop.

What happened to the 60 year old female jury foreman? anyone?
 
The paper ziggy linked to has a slightly different version of the continuance coverage. The other article I read said that the continuance was requested to wait for lab results and a psych evaluation. This article says that as of Jan. 22nd no paperwork had been filed for the psych evaluation.

Not a huge deal but the difference is interesting to me.

http://www.southsidemessenger.com/articles/2010/01/22/news/top_stories/ts2.txt
 
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