GUILTY VA - Noah Thomas, 5, Pulaski County, 22 March 2015 #3

[Beesknees]

Forgot to say... the coat and the rainy boots. Strange to be dressed with all that to be on the couch watching cartoons in a Sunday morning. Of course, if he was in pajamas it would be like an 'inside home thing'. In boots and coat would lead to an 'outside home thing'. It seemed all was made to appear to be something OUT of home. The clothes and the assumption he had to be far from home. Hummmm...

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I don't see at all how this could have been an accident unless the lid was already off it and he fell in. It i just my opinion I don't think this is an accident because if he did just fall in then there would be evidence that he drowned. They would find remnants of the sewage etc in his lungs that would in my opinion be indicative of him drowning down there and there is nothing like that mentioned. This makes me wonder if he was injected with something that caused him to die and then someone threw him down there. This would explain why they would be waiting on toxicology reports. IMO they would know right away if he drowned. I hate to say this but right now I am having real red flags towards the parents. I mean if this was some work of a sexual predator he probably would have been found farther away, no clothes on him, and I'm sure there would be some DNA on him from the suspect if it was a sexual abuse type of thing. Also if it was a male predator they'd probably know right away just from looking at the body. I'm not trying to get gruesome but I'm juts simply saying that all signs to me are pointing that he could have been injected with something and that the suspect is close to the victim which is why they are saying there is no danger to the public. If they thought that this was work of a predator they'd not say that, IMO.

It may be true that there is no danger to the community but countless times I have seen LE say the very same thing and then the real suspect turned out to be a complete stranger or someone in the neighborhood. So the Sheriff saying this doesn't make me feel all that comfortable actually since I have read this before and it turned out not to be true. LE knows there is police presence and the killer (if there is one) is not going to strike the same community when LE is swarming everywhere. LEs job is to calm the community and they can say whatever they want to in order for that to happen. Now of course I am sure if LE thinks this is a homicide that it is probably someone known to Noah. They really need to keep their eyes wide open though and not get tunnel vision before they have evidence proving or disproving something one way or the other. So many times LE has gotten off track by going down the rabbit hole about the parents when the predator wasn't one of them. Since I have been here at WS I have seen that happen many times. I know LE is to investigate those closest to the victim and that is a given but they cant become so preoccupied that they fail to look at other possible suspects and sometimes I do think they develop tunnel vision. Have they in this case? I really don't know.

I know several cases have already been linked about accidental septic tank drowning but I ran across this one just now. It may have already been posted since there seems to be a multitude of these kind of accidents where some lead to the person dying inside the tank. Until Noah's case I never realized how often it seems to happen.

Child falls into septic tank in Tewksbury; family warns of dangers This happened in June 2014.

On Sunday, July 13, the family was playing softball in Betsy and Stanley Parman’s side yard at their Hollowbrook Road home. After a batter got a solid hit 4-year-old Abbey, the daughter of a niece, chased after the ball that had landed near the home's septic system.

Abbey, 4, gets her turn at bat before a family game of softball nearly became a tragedy. Abbey fell into a septic tank after chasing a hit ball.

When the child unwittingly stepped on the lid of the septic tank, it flipped over and she vanished from sight. Then the lid flipped back into place.


http://www.nj.com/hunterdon-county-...ank_in_tewksbury_family_warns_of_dangers.html

If the man had not been there the little girl would have most likely eventually drowned. With the lid flipping back in place it would muffle the sounds of the little girl if she tried to call for help.

It seems to me that a lot of these septic tank lid covers aren't secured like they should be and when anyone steps on them it causes them to flip open swallowing up the person and then the lid flips back in the proper position. I find that so scary.

I am glad that none of our septic tank system can be seen above ground since we have many grandchildren and great grandchildren that play in our backyard. All of it is buried beneath the earth.

In the above mentioned case the lid is just laying in the grass at ground level. That seems so dangerous. It shows a photos of it.

 

[ANonyMs]

Forgot to say... the coat and the rainy boots. Strange to be dressed with all that to be on the couch watching cartoons in a Sunday morning. Of course, if he was in pajamas it would be like an 'inside home thing'. In boots and coat would lead to an 'outside home thing'. It seemed all was made to appear to be something OUT of home. The clothes and the assumption he had to be far from home. Hummmm...

I don't know. I have a 3 year old who wears winter hats and rainboots inside the house a lot. She just loves them so much, she wanders over to the door and puts them on herself. If he had been dressed in those things when they took Dad to work, he might have remained in them when he plopped down to watch TV. Little kids get all kinds of wild quirks like that. It doesn't really surprise me.

 

[Luvrosco]

We have been thinking it is a simple thing for the ME to determine whether N was drowned or already deceased.. but in the meantime, someone reported that even if already deceased when put into liquid, the lungs can still eventually fill up with liquid? Also, it seems that even if the victim's COD *was* by drowning, the lungs won't necessarily fill up with liquid.

This is one of the interesting articles I came across: http://www.relentlessdefense.com/forensics/drowning/

Add-on: So it could be that perhaps in addition to toxicology tests, there could be many other tests being run.. there are all *kinds* of tests to determine things we can't even begin to imagine, since we are not trained pathologists.

Excellent article. Thanks, I really learned a lot. OT, my mind went to Bobbi Kristina also.

 

[ANonyMs]

{snipped for brevity}

I know several cases have already been linked about accidental septic tank drowning but I ran across this one just now. It may have already been posted since there seems to be a multitude of these kind of accidents where some lead to the person dying inside the tank. Until Noah's case I never realized how often it seems to happen.

Child falls into septic tank in Tewksbury; family warns of dangers This happened in June 2014.

On Sunday, July 13, the family was playing softball in Betsy and Stanley Parman’s side yard at their Hollowbrook Road home. After a batter got a solid hit 4-year-old Abbey, the daughter of a niece, chased after the ball that had landed near the home's septic system.

Abbey, 4, gets her turn at bat before a family game of softball nearly became a tragedy. Abbey fell into a septic tank after chasing a hit ball.

When the child unwittingly stepped on the lid of the septic tank, it flipped over and she vanished from sight. Then the lid flipped back into place.


http://www.nj.com/hunterdon-county-...ank_in_tewksbury_family_warns_of_dangers.html

If the man had not been there the little girl would have most likely eventually drowned. With the lid flipping back in place it would muffle the sounds of the little girl if she tried to call for help.

It seems to me that a lot of these septic tank lid covers aren't secured like they should be and when anyone steps on them it causes them to flip open swallowing up the person and then the lid flips back in the proper position. I find that so scary.

I am glad that none of our septic tank system can be seen above ground since we have many grandchildren and great grandchildren that play in our backyard. All of it is buried beneath the earth.

In the above mentioned case the lid is just laying in the grass at ground level. That seems so dangerous. It shows a photos of it.

1) Those have been quoted several times in previous threads but I am glad someone brought it forward here. It is a hotly contested matter here as to whether that could have happened or not (I'm with you except that they did get a *tip* to look in the septic tank).

2) TOTALLY OT: Just noticed your signature. I know that sound well. I worked there for a few years. I miss that sound

 

[mpnola]

Well, I am still at the most probable scenarios that I was in the beginning. Either a neighborhood child/ someone he trusted (like Jenise or Relisha) or inside the home. He also was allowed to play alone outside without parental supervision, just like the those sweet girlies. We have entirely too many factors pointing away from an accidental dropping into his septic tank. That would take a whole bunch of strange occurrences at one time, yet again, that would make it improbable. Here's what I mean- it was reported the septic tank was under sod from someone who actually lived on the property and a reporter. It was said by the police THEy took off the lid- meaning it was on. We read an article that said they need a shovel or are bolted down. So, here is what would have to happen- the lid was uncovered by the sod, he unbolted it, the bolts were around the lid on the ground and during a search no one saw them, he would fall in without disturbing ground, having a shoe left on the outside, slide marks on the grass- nothing, the lid would have had to return to a proper place that no one "searching" for him though it looked ajar. In my brain, that is way too many things that would have to occur simultaneously for it to be true. I know it is easier for the brain to think it was an accidental fall in all on his own, but I just dont think that is the case- at all! ETA- Oh, and there is that thing that it was actually a called in tip that had tons of cars racing at the same time over to the property to search (as reported by a local before we even knew anything was about to be found).

Also, with arrests, one thing I have learned from the First 48- you can't just arrest people! The police can have some pretty solid evidence and then the judge still won't grant an arrest warrant because it isnt enough. They would more than likely have to finish up some autopsy stuff before the judge much thinks about saying they can arrest.

I was also thinking- maybe they need to test lung liquid for clear water (bathtub) vs sludge water (septic).

Lastly, innocent people don't hide other people in septic tanks. There is no way he accidentally died all on his own and an innocent mom would put him in the septic tank to cover up an accidental death. When an accident happens, innocent people call 911! They just do. As someone said, K.I.S.S. To try to make the details really complex is usually going away from the truth- which is usually pretty close to the easiest assumptions.

No matter the case, I hate that he was there. He mattered and he was loved.

 

[iamnotagolem]

It may be true that there is no danger to the community but countless times I have seen LE say the very same thing and then the real suspect turned out to be a complete stranger or someone in the neighborhood. So the Sheriff saying this doesn't make me feel all that comfortable actually since I have read this before and it turned out not to be true. LE knows there is police presence and the killer (if there is one) is not going to strike the same community when LE is swarming everywhere. LEs job is to calm the community and they can say whatever they want to in order for that to happen. Now of course I am sure if LE thinks this is a homicide that it is probably someone known to Noah. They really need to keep their eyes wide open though and not get tunnel vision before they have evidence proving or disproving something one way or the other. So many times LE has gotten off track by going down the rabbit hole about the parents when the predator wasn't one of them. Since I have been here at WS I have seen that happen many times. I know LE is to investigate those closest to the victim and that is a given but they cant become so preoccupied that they fail to look at other possible suspects and sometimes I do think they develop tunnel vision. Have they in this case? I really don't know.

I know several cases have already been linked about accidental septic tank drowning but I ran across this one just now. It may have already been posted since there seems to be a multitude of these kind of accidents where some lead to the person dying inside the tank. Until Noah's case I never realized how often it seems to happen.

Child falls into septic tank in Tewksbury; family warns of dangers This happened in June 2014.

On Sunday, July 13, the family was playing softball in Betsy and Stanley Parman’s side yard at their Hollowbrook Road home. After a batter got a solid hit 4-year-old Abbey, the daughter of a niece, chased after the ball that had landed near the home's septic system.

Abbey, 4, gets her turn at bat before a family game of softball nearly became a tragedy. Abbey fell into a septic tank after chasing a hit ball.

When the child unwittingly stepped on the lid of the septic tank, it flipped over and she vanished from sight. Then the lid flipped back into place.


http://www.nj.com/hunterdon-county-...ank_in_tewksbury_family_warns_of_dangers.html

If the man had not been there the little girl would have most likely eventually drowned. With the lid flipping back in place it would muffle the sounds of the little girl if she tried to call for help.

It seems to me that a lot of these septic tank lid covers aren't secured like they should be and when anyone steps on them it causes them to flip open swallowing up the person and then the lid flips back in the proper position. I find that so scary.

I am glad that none of our septic tank system can be seen above ground since we have many grandchildren and great grandchildren that play in our backyard. All of it is buried beneath the earth.

In the above mentioned case the lid is just laying in the grass at ground level. That seems so dangerous. It shows a photos of it.

I'm not trying to argue that kids don't accidentally fall into septic tanks, but that specific account has been posted on Noah's threads at least a dozen times. I'm not arguing the validity of it being a possibility, but I don't think it happens all that often, I think the more the story gets posted and people skim over it they think, oh well that's another case where it happened, when in reality it's the same story being posted over and over.

 

[menmo]

When my grandson was younger he loved his rain boots so much he begged to wear them with his shorts in the summer. It lasted awhile and then he outgrew the want for them on all the time.
He could also have been watching tv and like many kids do he go up and got his raincoat and boots on and sat in front of the tv so he could be like the people he was watching. Cartoons etc. I've seen more than one kid do this.

I am definitely on the fence on this one. I think I'll be sitting here until I get knocked off.

JMO

 

[JeannaT]

As I understood it, he was NOT wearing his coat and boots when last seen. His mother later reported those items missing after LE arrived and she was encouraged to search for items missing like those.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I'm not trying to argue that kids don't accidentally fall into septic tanks, but that specific account has been posted on Noah's threads at least a dozen times. I'm not arguing the validity of it being a possibility, but I don't think it happens all that often, I think the more the story gets posted and people skim over it they think, oh well that's another case where it happened, when in reality it's the same story being posted over and over.

I am sorry. I haven't been able to be here very much during the day. Would you like for me to delete it?

I have researched accidental septic tank drowning though and it does seem to happen much more than people think. There were numerous articles, too many to link, where it has happened to young children, and it has happened to adults as well.

I do know I have read that drowning is in the top five causes of accidental death for children five years old and under so if they didn't drown in a pool/tub/beach etc but rather a septic tank it would also be listed as an accidental drowning in the CDC stats.

What it does show to me if the lid is above ground and unsecured all it takes is the weight of a child to make it flip open.

I am not saying it happened in this case for I don't know what may have happened to Noah.

IMO

 

[laura08]

I thought maybe they had got home late, Was the basketball game the day before he was reported missing? He was in the same pants when he was reported missing from a day before.

 

[kaen]

Slightly off topic, but I think the Sheriff's constant warnings about not listening to local gossip, probably alludes to things that we don't know about regarding the home life of Noah.

I agree. This family was also related to someone who was convicted of a horrible crime in the area. In the beginning, there was a lot of concern based the family relationship. This is a small town---people "know" or think they know a lot about each other. Some things may be true and some may be false.

 

[toevlugsoord]

BBM, I mention Jessica Ridgeway's case a lot b/c I really appreciated how hard LE worked not only to find her and bring her killer to justice but they cleared the parents early on in the case which put an end to all of the speculation. It took me by surprise b/c I really thought the mom was involved, I thought her story sounded fishy. But by clearing the parents and making that announcement early on, it helped us all focus on finding the killer.

This is a very difficult case for me, Noah looks happy, I have a child the same age, but I can't imagine my child ever playing outside alone especially w/o a fenced yard or w/o being able to see him from in the house. I was very convinced Noah was dead from day one and very close to the home, but thought it would be months or years before his body was found. I thought he had simply gotten hurt or stuck somewhere and perished. Now I'm not so sure, there seems to be a lot more factors at play here than just he fell in or he was put in.

I really hope this is wrapped up quickly, the not knowing is stressful. So many emotions are involved for all of us as we fell in love with Noah, we want to be angry, we want someone to blame b/c no 5 year old should be listed in an obituary. No 5 y/o should be found in a septic tank.

Jessica's story is one of the most horrific cases that I think any parent could go through. To have a child simply vanish and it's a complete stranger opportunistically and it's your child right there at the wrong time. I cried many tears over that sweet girl's fate and I'm so glad her killer was found. I read wayyyyy too many details about it and it really haunts me. It has also made me see that random and horrible things DO happen and you can't really ever fully discount the random abduction snatch off the street scenario. It really could happen....but where Noah was found it does not seem likely that it was a random stranger. Firstly how would a random stranger even know the septic tank is right there and would want to be scene fiddling with the bolts etc. No, this is someone close to home who knows him well or has seen him around the neighborhood....or of course a family member. Ugh, it's so hard to think about and we won't have answers for awhile.

 

[iamnotagolem]

I am sorry. I haven't been able to be here very much during the day. Would you like for me to delete it?

I have researched accidental septic tank drowning though and it does seem to happen much more than people think. There were numerous articles, too many to link, where it has happened to young children, and it has happened to adults as well.

I do know I have read that drowning is in the top five causes of death for children five years old and under so if they didn't drown in a pool/tub/beach etc but rather a septic tank it would also be listed as an accidental drowning in the CDC stats.

IMO

Nooo no no don't delete it. I just wanted to make sure that it was noted that it had been posted previously, because kids do/have fallen into septic tanks and died.

 

[iamnotagolem]

I thought maybe they had got home late, Was the basketball game the day before he was reported missing? He was in the same pants when he was reported missing from a day before.

BBM Do you have a link for that? I don't think i've read that before.

 

[FindHG]

I need to correct myself. I don't think the references to Noah being with a white male child were actually on the missing posters. It was broadcast by MSM's in the initial reports of him being missing and attributed to "the police" but I don't see it on the posters.

Interestingly, this site also mentions that the report of him being with another white male child dropped off...scroll 1/3 way down at "Original Story") http://www.missingpersonsofamerica.com/2015/03/noah-thomas-missing-5-year-old-from.html

Also, other random references (it is hard to produce an actual MSM on this as they all seem to update their stories now rather than posting new ones and I cannot find archived stories from the beginning of the search).

https://www.facebook.com/childabuse...1.1073741828.159069744297504/359887447549065/

http://www.breaking911.com/urgent-m...d-noah-terry-thomas-of-virginia-please-share/

http://thelostnmissing.blogspot.com/2015/03/endangered-missing-noah-terry-thomas-5.html

EDITED TO ADD: Even here at WS, members commented on the other child and then by the evening of the 22, that had faded off. The link one of our members quoted has since been changed but you can see early discussion of it here (I love that WS acts as repository for information!) http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ski-22-March-2015&highlight=noah+terry+thomas


And on a separate note, as many of us have wondered about the timing of searching the septic, I just re-read this article. While we know that a credible tip came in, do we know *when* it came in exactly? It seems they were initially looking as far and wide as a 5 year old might have traveled on foot and then changed the focus?

http://www.wsls.com/story/28610627/...rch-for-noah-thomas-begin-methodical-approach

Thank you, for taking the time to pull this together. I had gone back earlier, when I first joined the thread, to try to see if there was any confirmation of the information, but it may have been due to research mish mash, as you suggest, if I'm reading it correctly. Much appreciated.

 

[laura08]

Hi Iamnotagolem I should have spoke more clearly sorry. I was asking if the basketball game was the day before he was reported missing, because in that photo at the basketball game or practice he is wearing the same pants he went missing in.

 

[cluciano63]

If he fell in, lid closed neatly behind him, and his cause of death matched this scenario...then why so secretive and just plain "weird" behavior from LE? Why not ease the minds of the community, take pressure off of the family, etc.? Clearly, Imo, they know otherwise or are uncertain.

Does anyone have the link where one of the reporters said she had looked at the septic tank at some point? Wondering what exactly she said about the lid.

 

[iamnotagolem]

Hi Iamnotagolem I should have spoke more clearly sorry. I was asking if the basketball game was the day before he was reported missing, because in that photo at the basketball game or practice he is wearing the same pants he went missing in.

Gotcha! Thanks for clarifying. I thought I'd missed something.

 

[FindHG]

http://m.wdbj7.com/news/sheriff-no-lingering-danger-to-children-following-noah-thomas-case/32094190

Orlando Salinas reports a 6 pm today, that they expect a "full house" at Noah's funeral and that "the last nine words are important."

"We will make a formal statement on the findings."