GUILTY VA - Noah Thomas, 5, Pulaski County, 22 March 2015 #4

[Ronso]

If this mother was a Narcissist, she would have taken the media by storm from Day 1 and tried to be on every front page daily, imo. She would have believed no one could speak for her because her words were most important, I think. She probably would have been convinced she had done nothing wrong and that people would agree because she could control the situation.

Not seeing it in this case at all. (Or do I have it wrong about a Narcissist?)

It's interesting. My mother would've been that person... however the ex-narc was a silent rager. And he was very private. Only when he felt cornered did he ever try to convince anyone of anything. I wouldn't see him as someone who would plaster himself all over the news.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

But isn't it also true that emotional/psychological trauma, especially at an early age, shapes the structure and function of the brain?

All very interesting stuff. I read so much, but I am terrible with bookmarking so I never remember where I read it. Then bits and pieces just become stuck in my brain. lol

I think it all depends on the individual person on how they process the trauma and deal with it.

 

[arkansasmimi]

And that may be enough for some on the board - all the rest is in the details. But for many of us - myself included - that leaves more questions unanswered than it answers.

I for one wonder why they didn't wait for the autopsy to be complete before charging them. EITHER, they were neglectful and unwatchful and did drugs and had an unsafe home and as a result this child has died of a tragic accident while being unsupervised, or one or both of them killed him and put him in the septic tank. And the way I see it, those two scenarios aren't even closely related. They are as far apart as night and day.

And the second scenario would also include charges of murder or manslaughter, obstructing evidence, calling in a false police report, etc., which are not present.

JMO, but after the child was buried, the LEO wouldn't have as honest as a reason to hang close as they had prior to the funeral. Possible that it was on of those situations where they felt they had the evidence to charge with what they ultimately did, enough to "hold" them so that the parents didn't decide to move off. JMO

 

[courtneyb]

I just don't think that in this case, in this or these crimes, that these two people are victims. Maybe they WERE victims of something in their lives. I am sure they were. But when they perpetrated this abuse, at the least, upon their children, they stopped being victims and became the perpetrators. In this case, the abuse of both children and *something* leading to Noah's death and the throwing away of his body, I cannot understand classifying them as victims. One victim died and one was abused and removed from the home, thank goodness. Those are the only two victims that I am extending any sympathy or empathy towards. Eventually, I might care what in their lives caused them to do it. But probably not. They made multiple, repeated decisions to be abusive and neglectful. They chose to, if they had experienced abuse, keep the cycle going. Victims of abuse don't have to keep that cycle unbroken. Believe me, I know. I'm just grateful to Noah, in losing his life, he gave his baby sister a chance.


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[silversurvivor]

Not sure if this has been brought up or not but does anyone think that Ashley didn't know Noah was in the septic? Maybe it was a case of, "just do it but I don't want to know where".

As a mom who's lost a child, after umpteen years I still think about him when it's really cold with snow and ice. I just want to run and dig him out and wrap him in blankets to warm him up I can't fathom how she could knowingly allow him to be put in that septic. I just can't.

I just had to say I feel the same way about my nephew (he passed at 3 yrs old) I just want to go hold him and protect him from rain snow etc. Even after all the years....
Thank you for sharing

 

[Ronso]

I just don't think that in this case, in this or these crimes, that these two people are victims. Maybe they WERE victims of something in their lives. I am sure they were. But when they perpetrated this abuse, at the least, upon their children, they stopped being victims and became the perpetrators. In this case, the abuse of both children and *something* leading to Noah's death and the throwing away of his body, I cannot understand classifying them as victims. One victim died and one was abused and removed from the home, thank goodness. Those are the only two victims that I am extending any sympathy or empathy towards. Eventually, I might care what in their lives caused them to do it. But probably not. They made multiple, repeated decisions to be abusive and neglectful. They chose to, if they had experienced abuse, keep the cycle going. Victims of abuse don't have to keep that cycle unbroken. Believe me, I know. I'm just grateful to Noah, in losing his life, he gave his baby sister a chance.


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My empathy is not me classifying anybody as a victim. I understand why people feel the way they do. What I don't understand is putting words or intentions into my proverbial mouth.

Narcissists are broken people. That's all I am getting at. I have empathy for broken people, narcissists or not. I spent years as a broken person. I had the fortitude to break out of it. Not everybody does. Monsters can be created when people are broken. That is incredibly sad to me. Sad that anybody is broken. Sad that anyone becomes a monster. That in no way means that I condone what they did, or that they don't deserve punishment.

I just don't have it in me to shout about death penalties or people being tortured anymore. I used to get that emotional, that upset. I used to be very hateful. It was draining for me. I let that go. I do hope that they are punished for what they're guilty of. I just don't feel like I have enough evidence to know exactly what that is yet.

And I am not saying that people who react differently are wrong, either. Before that gets put in my "mouth". Simply speaking for myself.

 

[courtneyb]

My empathy is not me classifying anybody as a victim. I understand why people feel the way they do. What I don't understand is putting words or intentions into my proverbial mouth.

Narcissists are broken people. That's all I am getting at. I have empathy for broken people, narcissists or not. I spent years as a broken person. I had the fortitude to break out of it. Not everybody does. Monsters can be created when people are broken. That is incredibly sad to me. Sad that anybody is broken. Sad that anyone becomes a monster. That in no way means that I condone what they did, or that they don't deserve punishment.

I just don't have it in me to shout about death penalties or people being tortured anymore. I used to get that emotional, that upset. I used to be very hateful. It was draining for me. I let that go. I do hope that they are punished for what they're guilty of. I just don't feel like I have enough evidence to know exactly what that is yet.

And I am not saying that people who react differently are wrong, either. Before that gets put in my "mouth". Simply speaking for myself.

I wasn't speaking about you.. I had to go back and read your posts to see how I was potentially putting words in your mouth.

I'm not sure how you so quickly judged that I might fall into the category of someone screaming for the death penalty. I am anti-death penalty, just so you "know". I cringe at those people on facebook yelling, "castrate him" about someone accused of statutory rape, or "let me have at him!" Or " torture ain't good enough for this !" Those people are gross. I am about personal responsibility and placing responsibility and yes, sometimes blame, on the appropriate person or persons. I wouldn't even know where to get a pitchfork or how to build a fire to burn someone at the stake. Disappointing?

I don't believe for a second that she was a narcissist. Selfish, yes, possibly not intellectually gifted, probably. Maybe not even intellectually average. Possibly wrapped up in drugs. I said possibly. If she was, and we will find out if she was, then her behavior can be simply explained as junkie self preservation if this was accidental.

If Noah's death was intentional, well then she is obviously something else.

I am glad that you have survived and are a survivor. I'm certain you will keep surviving.


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[SeriouslySearching]

It's interesting. My mother would've been that person... however the ex-narc was a silent rager. And he was very private. Only when he felt cornered did he ever try to convince anyone of anything. I wouldn't see him as someone who would plaster himself all over the news.

Yes. That is interesting. Never heard of a quiet narcissist, but learn new things all the time.

 

[ANonyMs]

In the south it is. My husband was a Federal employee for 35 years and always off.

OT, but federal employees have not had Good Friday as a part of their offical OPM holiday roster for several years now.

I think, in general, there are some places that observe it and make allowances but many no longer do.

I do think it is interesting that one source said that Pulaski County courts were closed for Good Friday and another said , "no judges were available". (Because they all took Good Friday off?)

In any case, the video arraignment being conducted with another county made me wonder...

I know that case is set for Pulaski County but I would guess any defense attorney would ask for a change of venue if it goes to trial.

Are they being held in with the general prison population or in some protective manner? I would have to think that even inmates in the county clink have heard about this case.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I think what we all need to remember here is that everyone is just guessing what the evidence might be, and guessing who might be at fault for what part they played. LE is even guessing since they don't have the tox tests back and so the autopsy is not complete.

Everyone is guessing - and sometimes it seems helpful to remind ourselves of that. There's no need for everyone to kick each other in the shins because their best guess is not the same as your best guess.

What is LE guessing?

I don't think they are guessing anything at this point. The charges brought against both of them is what the DA has in evidence that he knows he can prove. It isn't just willy nilly that he charged the mom with the more serious charge. Imo, the evidence collected backs up all the charges and why hers is higher than Paul's. What that evidence is we don't know but the DA does.

But it is true we do not know what caused his death. I think it is very clear he did not die from natural causes. In fact I do not think they believe he died accidentally either. It seems they are looking for drugs and what kind in the toxicology report.

We don't know if this was an ingestion of illegal drugs given to Noah to make him sleep or whether it was a forced ingestion or whether this was a premeditated act. We also don't know if they saw signs of prior abuse on Noah's little body during the autopsy. Maybe broken bones that had not healed. If they did see old injuries or new ones but knew he didn't die from them that certainly would give them enough to arrest them for the charges they are under now.

But with the tox report being so important it has drug usage all over it imo.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

JMO, but after the child was buried, the LEO wouldn't have as honest as a reason to hang close as they had prior to the funeral. Possible that it was on of those situations where they felt they had the evidence to charge with what they ultimately did, enough to "hold" them so that the parents didn't decide to move off. JMO

You could be correct. They often will charge with lesser charges simply to keep them in place while they continue to investigate more serious charges (such as murder). There may not be much keeping those two in the area since their children are gone and I suspect LE considered they spent too much time searching for Noah to waste any more time trying to track them down later. (At least, I would feel that way.)

After the Manner Of Death and the Cause Of Death come in with the final autopsy report, they may have the evidence they need to move forward with more charges. No reason to let them roam free.

Does anyone think the August date for the preliminary hearing is unusual? I was quite surprised by the date being months away.

 

[blue22]

I think what we all need to remember here is that everyone is just guessing what the evidence might be, and guessing who might be at fault for what part they played. LE is even guessing since they don't have the tox tests back and so the autopsy is not complete.

Everyone is guessing - and sometimes it seems helpful to remind ourselves of that. There's no need for everyone to kick each other in the shins because their best guess is not the same as your best guess.

LE said they charged them based on what they know NOW. They are not guessing as to what they know now. They are waiting for tox results to see if even more needs to be added.

 

[ANonyMs]

{snipped by me to take your post slightly out of context for my own purposes }

I cringe at those people on facebook yelling, "castrate him" about someone accused of statutory rape, or "let me have at him!" Or " torture ain't good enough for this !" Those people are gross. I am about personal responsibility and placing responsibility and yes, sometimes blame, on the appropriate person or persons. I wouldn't even know where to get a pitchfork or how to build a fire to burn someone at the stake. Disappointing?

I don't believe for a second that she was a narcissist. Selfish, yes, possibly not intellectually gifted, probably. Maybe not even intellectually average. Possibly wrapped up in drugs. I said possibly. If she was, and we will find out if she was, then her behavior can be simply explained as junkie self preservation if this was accidental.

If Noah's death was intentional, well then she is obviously something else.

Nicely said. That pretty much sums up my thoughts, too.

But really? Don't know where to find a pitchfork? Lowe's. They sell them at Lowe's and Home Depot.

 

[LorinMarie]

The "Mothers" words today reminded me of ÇA. She was concerned about the media and what the public may discuss but not a word about Noah? I recall ÇA was the exact same way. I have 0 sympathy or compassion for the parents. The baby being taken away only a day after Noah was reported missing shows to me that LE knew very quickly the parents were abusers and seeing how cautious the Sherriff has been it tells me they must have some very solid evidence. Hearing the evidence at trial will be rough to hear but i feel I owe it to Noah to listen to every word and do all that is in my power to report anything that may not seem right if i have even the slightest concern about care of a child. I feel like many people hesitate and second guess themselves thus not reporting concerns but better safe than sorry. Abused children need a Spider Man watching out for them, I wish Noah had that but at the very least we can all learn from this and make a difference

 

[courtneyb]

Nicely said. That pretty much sums up my thoughts, too.

But really? Don't know where to find a pitchfork? Lowe's. They sell them at Lowe's and Home Depot.

Really?? I thought I'd have to find some sort of Feed and Seed or co-op or something. I might have to redact part of what I said... At the time I didn't know how easily I could GET a pitchfork! Point me in the direction of the mob!

 

[Ronso]

Sorry CourtneyB... I was not accusing you of being the pitchfork type. I am just saying how *I* used to be. That's all.

 

[courtneyb]

Sorry CourtneyB... I was not accusing you of being the pitchfork type. I am just saying how *I* used to be. That's all.

You don't owe me an apology. �� I was a "bit"snippy. ��. I owe you one. ������ you didn't deserve that.

 

[ANonyMs]

And that may be enough for some on the board - all the rest is in the details. But for many of us - myself included - that leaves more questions unanswered than it answers.

I for one wonder why they didn't wait for the autopsy to be complete before charging them. EITHER, they were neglectful and unwatchful and did drugs and had an unsafe home and as a result this child has died of a tragic accident while being unsupervised, or one or both of them killed him and put him in the septic tank. And the way I see it, those two scenarios aren't even closely related. They are as far apart as night and day.

And the second scenario would also include charges of murder or manslaughter, obstructing evidence, calling in a false police report, etc., which are not present.

IMO, charging them *now* based on whatever they could brought some benefits, even if they expect they will up the charges once the COD/MOD is determined.

With these charges, the County does not have to worry about giving Baby A back to them at this point. How she is cared for over the next weeks and months becomes an administrative matter vs having hearings, etc for them to get her back.

It brings focus to the investigation. Instead of having to keep tabs on two POI that they have sufficient evidence on for at least these charges, the Sheriff's Dept resources can better be used collecting the evidence they must still need to up the charges.

These aren't minor infractions brought up just as a means to an end. If they can't up the charges later, if the evidence does not shake out, etc - they can at least pursue these charges.

The traffic violation that was used to track down Jesse Matthews comes to mind. Sure, reckless driving is not cool, but they rarely perform a multi-state manhunt for it. These charges are *real*.

And just because those other charges aren't there now doesn't mean they can't be brought up later. I would hope the DA at least has those in is back pocket for a rainy day.

 

[ANonyMs]

Does anyone think the August date for the preliminary hearing is unusual? I was quite surprised by the date being months away.

I don't know. It seems some court systems book everything a standard number of days out. Some give shorter time frames and then go through continuances and date changes over and over. Some cut to the chase and schedule it way out at the outset.

I do wonder, though, if there is truth to the speculations of drug use, could they be allowed in to some sort of detox or treatment program before trial (which, if the judge anticipated, could have affected the date?)

 

[courtneyb]

I don't know. It seems some court systems book everything a standard number of days out. Some give shorter time frames and then go through continuances and date changes over and over. Some cut to the chase and schedule it way out at the outset.

I do wonder, though, if there is truth to the speculations of drug use, could they be allowed in to some sort of detox or treatment program before trial (which, if the judge anticipated, could have affected the date?)

Ahhh, good point. Do you know what the length of something like that would be? 30 days? Or 90 days? 90 days would fit nicely in the time frame. It doesn't make it so, but still really interesting.