GUILTY VA - Noah Thomas, 5, Pulaski County, 22 March 2015 #6

[AnnaGrace]

Here is a brief on AW's father's murder. I can imagine this was especially hard on her and her family as this man was reportedly a former friend of her father. And this man was successfully prosecuted by Mike Fleenor.

http://capulaski.eac2quickweb.com/commonwealth-v-lamonte-franklin-defriece/

Thanks to everyone who found info on AW's father's murder case. I didn't get a chance to research it more, so it was good to read it here. I'm sure it was hard for the family. It may have influenced her drug use, but IMO, doesn't justify the outcome.

 

[ANonyMs]

Can you please provide a reputable source/link that states that opiate use during pregnancy is safe (for legitimate reasons/pain relief), as that's certainly not anything I've ever been taught or read.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/birthdefects/features/birthdefects-Opioid-Analgesics-keyfindings.html

"Opioids

These agents include morphine-like agonists (eg, morphine, hydromorphone, hydrocodone, codeine, and oxycodone), meperidine-like agonists, and synthetic opioid analogues (eg, tramadol). Reproductive studies describing the use of narcotic analgesics in human pregnancies are limited, and there are no prospective, comparative studies. However, these drugs have been used in therapeutic doses by pregnant women for many years and have not been linked to elevated risk of major or minor malformations. The Collaborative Perinatal Project identified 448 morphine exposures at various stages of pregnancy and found no evidence of increased teratogenic effects.8 The Michigan Medicaid study reported 332 newborns exposed to hydrocodone, 281 exposed to oxycodone, and 7640 exposed to codeine, all in the first trimester. The rate of major birth defects was 4.6% for the oxycodone-exposed group; 4.9% for the codeine-exposed group (consistent with the general population risk); and 7.2% for the hydrocodone group, which could have been influenced by confounding factors (ie, maternal disease severity and concurrent drug use).9 A case-control study of 141 infants with cardiac malformations did not report an association with the use of codeine in the first trimester of pregnancy.10 Neonatal withdrawal has been observed with use of codeine in late pregnancy, even with therapeutic doses in nonaddicted mothers.11,12"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2809170/

Granted, that is for Opioids not Opiates and the info is a couple of years old. I wish I could find the link that kept coming up when I first started looking for this info last week. Now that I have Googled around, Google is trying to over think for me and keeps returning abuse and addiction results even when I don't ask for them.

 

[ANonyMs]

I want to clarify something. I have no medical expertise and I am not saying Opiates are safe during pregnancy. They have been generally regarded as safe in the past and there is a lot of literature out there that states as such.

However, the FDA just published this warning in Jan, 2015. (Which, wrt this case, is after Baby A was born).
http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DrugSafety/ucm429117.htm

Here is an article about how commonly these meds are prescribed during pregnancy.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/15/s...or-opioid-painkillers-for-pregnant-women.html

 

[AnnaGrace]

I'm really hoping more autopsy results are released this week. Toxicology, manner of death, etc. I'm not sure if COD will be released, if Noah's death is not deemed accidental. I know in numerous cases that I've followed, COD wasn't released until trial, not even if charges are made.

 

[ANonyMs]

I'm really hoping more autopsy results are released this week. Toxicology, manner of death, etc. I'm not sure if COD will be released, if Noah's death is not deemed accidental. I know in numerous cases that I've followed, COD wasn't released until trial, not even if charges are made.

I don't anticipate the public being apprised of anything outside an announcement of new charges, new arrests, or made public in court. There might be some sort of statement about this being an ongoing investigation, etc but I think we are in for a long journey to get answers.

 

[kshultz06082]

Among the reasons I feel the parents are behind Noah's death and know how he ended up in the tank . . . no pleas from the parents to find who did this to Noah . . . no pleas for information if anyone saw anyone else around the home . . . no pleas at all except to be let out of jail.

SMH in disgust.

Even OJ tried to implore the public to find "the real killer" ! Shaking my head in disgust with ya!

 

[kshultz06082]

This is a pretty interesting read. I'm not sure how long this has been in affect. The article has December 2000 on it. My children were all born before 2000, so weren't drug tested in Virginia.

In Iowa, Minnesota and Virginia, health care professionals are required to test some or all pregnant women or newborns for prenatal drug exposure.

https://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/03/6/gr030603.html

I know in CT, if a mother admits to recent drug use, the baby gets tested at birth. I had my oldest at 19. Prior to finding out I was pregnant, I smoked pot (alot). The day I found out, I never touched it again. I was so worried about what damage i could have done in the first few weeks before I knew, that I told my doctor what happened. Baby was born, bag was put on his penis to collect urine to be tested. All was well. Now, my mother was pregnant at the same time. She had a looooooong history of drug and alcohol abuse but denied any recent use. That was a lie as she continued to smoke pot during her pregnancy. Her baby was NOT tested. 4 years later, he was removed from her "care" and placed with me as a foster child due to her continuing use of illegal drugs...

So in closing, the laws need to be changed. If the only people being tested are the ones who were honest, then a lot of babies are going home addicted or with addicted parents and then need to be found homes with the honest ones....

 

[ANonyMs]

I have been pestering a friend who is a drug addiction counselor to help me understand some of what I have been reading about NAS. He encouraged me to go back and look again as I think I made some fast assumptions about NAS when we first learned of Baby A's Dx.

1) It can be caused by meds other than opiates/opioids. http://www.healthcentral.com/chronic-pain/c/27148/142188/abstinence/

2) The worst effects last a few weeks but the symptoms may last up to 6 months.
https://health.state.tn.us/MCH/PDFs/NAS/NAS_FAQ.pdf

3) Some women are Rx'd meds for addiction in order to help them wean off opiates including Subutex and Methadone. A baby born to a mama in treatment may also experience NAS.

Please don't misconstrue this as defending AW in any way. Just offering information.

 

[Schmaley]

I know in CT, if a mother admits to recent drug use, the baby gets tested at birth. I had my oldest at 19. Prior to finding out I was pregnant, I smoked pot (alot). The day I found out, I never touched it again. I was so worried about what damage i could have done in the first few weeks before I knew, that I told my doctor what happened. Baby was born, bag was put on his penis to collect urine to be tested. All was well. Now, my mother was pregnant at the same time. She had a looooooong history of drug and alcohol abuse but denied any recent use. That was a lie as she continued to smoke pot during her pregnancy. Her baby was NOT tested. 4 years later, he was removed from her "care" and placed with me as a foster child due to her continuing use of illegal drugs...

So in closing, the laws need to be changed. If the only people being tested are the ones who were honest, then a lot of babies are going home addicted or with addicted parents and then need to be found homes with the honest ones....

You and your mom were pregnant at the same time? So you raised your child and your child's aunt/uncle together? Wow that is crazy!!

 

[Schmaley]

I just want to know what happened on that fateful day. I hate the mystery of it all. I want to know if Noah had an accident and fell of a high dresser or if he got into something he shouldn't have (like drugs or bleach or who knows?!). I just don't know what AW and PT have left to lose. They lost their kids, how could they ever really feel "freedom" again no matter where they physically are? Did they do it by accident or on purpose and decide the septic tank would be the best hiding spot because they were too afraid to come forward? It just seems so cowardly to not just come out and take whatever responsibility they have in it.

 

[atm9533]

Me too. my mom and I were pregnant at the same time in 76. My daughter and brother are very close in age and I did take care of both of them. Not so crazy.

 

[katydid23]

I just want to know what happened on that fateful day. I hate the mystery of it all. I want to know if Noah had an accident and fell of a high dresser or if he got into something he shouldn't have (like drugs or bleach or who knows?!). I just don't know what AW and PT have left to lose. They lost their kids, how could they ever really feel "freedom" again no matter where they physically are? Did they do it by accident or on purpose and decide the septic tank would be the best hiding spot because they were too afraid to come forward? It just seems so cowardly to not just come out and take whatever responsibility they have in it.

I want to know what happened too. But I am really afraid that we might not ever know what actually happened. :rose:

 

[MzOpinion8d]

Can you please provide a reputable source/link that states that opiate use during pregnancy is safe (for legitimate reasons/pain relief), as that's certainly not anything I've ever been taught or read.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/birthdefects/features/birthdefects-Opioid-Analgesics-keyfindings.html

http://www.fpnotebook.com/Pharm/OB/AnlgscMdctnsInPrgncy.htm

Here's one that breaks it down pretty well. There is risk involved, as shown in the link you provided. Note in my post I said "technically safe if there is a legitimate need". There are circumstances in which pain relievers are needed and can be used without any ill effects on the baby, but obviously the situation has to be assessed on a case by case basis. I didn't mean they are as safe as, say, Tylenol. I'm sorry if it came across that way. I knew what I meant in my mind, why didn't you?! Lol

If the opiate use was intense enough to cause a lasting syndrome in the baby, my guess is there was a substantial dose being taken, and it doesn't seem like any responsible physician would prescribe that much medication to a pregnant woman. However, I've come across some really irresponsible physicians while working in this field, so anything's possible.

 

[kshultz06082]

You and your mom were pregnant at the same time? So you raised your child and your child's aunt/uncle together? Wow that is crazy!!

Yes, our sons are 2 months apart. Mine is older. I was also pregnant at the same time as my stepmom, so my middle child is older than her uncle too. My parents both got remarried when i was in my late teens and decided to have more kids, so other than 1 sister, all my siblings are 20 to 25 years younger than me.

 

[AnnaGrace]

My grandmother on my Mom's side was expecting at the same time as three of her daughters. My Mom was one of them. My grandmother went on to have two more children. Mom had a total of ten brothers and sisters! So eleven children!

 

[wvsoccermom]

http://www.roanoke.com/news/crime/n...cle_2eb0c3cf-4196-5d23-8e16-e73b21f42e61.html

Confirmation about the hotel room.

 

[wvsoccermom]

http://www.roanoke.com/news/crime/n...cle_2eb0c3cf-4196-5d23-8e16-e73b21f42e61.html

Confirmation about the hotel room.

Sorry for the duplicate post. I dont know how to delete it! Lol

 

[Zuri]

I keep checking in to see if the tox report is in and an official COD has been released. I am not a very patient person.

Regarding taking narcotics during pregnancy, most prescribed drugs have risk to fetus rating, so the prescribing doctors can decide the risk vs. reward factors (simplistically put). I had a spinal fusion when I unknowingly was pregnant with my first child back in 1988. I had major drugs, anesthesia, radiation, blood loss requiring transfusion etc. Quite the surprise and I was pretty freaked out. My OB went over every medication I had taken and the risks involved. Since it was so early in my pregnancy, and the drugs were not toxic enough to do harm, I continued the pregnancy and had a healthy baby boy. I was lucky. I would not do it again.

 

[wvsoccermom]

Here's one part of the article I posted that I think is interesting...

"A source close to the investigation interviewed for this report confirmed that during the initial stages of the investigation, the county paid for White and Thomas to stay in the hotel room.

However, after authorities became suspicious about what Thomas and White were telling them, the county stopped paying for the room."

 

[Schmaley]

So to summarize, they rented a hotel room during the investigation and the county paid for it until their involvement in the investigation became suspicious (which was at what point considering the removal of baby A was very quick)? Then they damaged the room by smoking in it?