my_tee_mouse
Done. Put a Fork in Me.
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Ya'll are both doing a marvelous job of explaining yourselves.
GUILTY VA - Tina Smith, 41, slain, 12yo daughter abducted, Salem, 2 Dec 2010 - #6
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KR2tonenow
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:furious:
lisser
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Could it have been a second set of keys to the Blazer? Then the buyer would have been able to just pick it up from TS's house.
Curious behavior for sure.
KR2tonenow
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Very good point, poor Brittany.
Murder weapon to be disposed of?
Patty G
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I wonder what they would do IF Brittany tells them he never touched her?
Lysistrata
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I'd like to say a few words about the child protective services offices that the relatives contacted. I'm not defending them, but, having spent 10 yrs working for such an agency in 2 different states, I can tell you that they do not operate as we the public believe that they do or should.
There have been stmts in the press and on Nancy Grace that CPS 'didn't do anything' because they were having a Christmas party. Let me assure you that they would not have done anything anyway...the Christmas party is completely irrelevant.
When someone calls CPS those folks want details. And they are so overwhelmed with serious cases, the fact that a relative described JE petting on BS and "trying to devour her with his eyes" wouldn't have registered on the CPS radar screen at all. In fact, if someone had said JE was molesting BS in their presence, CPS would have likely asked if the child had a parent who was a responsible caretaker and, if told yes, then CPS would have told them to have that parent swear out a warrant or be held complicit. Had the relative said that there was no responsible parent or caregiver, then CPS might have gotten involved. But just this fawning and flirting between BS and JE would NOT have constituted any sort of sexual abuse as far as CPS goes. I'm sure that the caseworker (who finally did speak with the relative) advised her to speak to TS, explain how it looked to the relatives, and keep talking until TS 'got it' that things were way outside the bounds of proper behavior between a 12 yr old and a mother's BF.
Years ago, when I first worked for CPS, we had a bit more flexibility with time and what we chose to follow up on that didn't meet the 'endangering the health and welfare of a child to the point that death may occur.' There's a chance that we would have followed up with a home visit, probably a visit to the school to talk to the child, maybe a background check if we were able to get info as to where the guy had come from. But child abuse rates have skyrocketed while funding has been cut and these days, it's a pretty dire situation that captures the attention of CPS.
I worked for CPS twice...once from the mid-70's - mid 80's and again for 9 months in 2001. I was so shocked by the slovenly attitudes of the case workers, their cavalier attitudes as they tossed reports into the trash without even showing them to supervisors, adversarial relationships with the agencies and school who should have been their allies, I quit in disgust. But as I went through the 'new and improved' training, I was also shocked at how serious reports needed to sound before they would be investigated. In my first 10 yrs, we went out on virtually every report, unless it was just sooo apparent that the caller was a vindictive relative with a pending child support case (it was a fairly small county...we knew lots of people, clients or not). But, when I went back in 2001, reports I would have rushed to get to 20 yrs prior, were tossed aside. The state had some sort of mathematical algorithm that determined whether a call warranted investigation. And in case you're thinking that this state was an anomaly, it wasn't...it was in the process of national certification state-wide.
Knowing now what was likely to have been going on in the Smith household, I have to wonder if there's an old-school caseworker somewhere in VA who now wishes she'd gone to speak with Tina. The more I think about it though, the more I'm convinced there was not. The description of the interaction between JE and BS simply would not have warranted any intervention. I'd like to think, "Maybe next time"...but I doubt that too. CPS limits its intervention to situations where they believe (or the mathematical algorithm believes) that a child is in imminent danger of his/her life. And while BS certainly met this criteria eventually, she did not meet it at the very moment someone called CPS.
Like I said...I'm not defending CPS...I detest this 'new model' that they work under. But I think, to be fair to those workers who do respond to some pretty dreadful situations, it needed to be pointed out that it wasn't a Christmas party that prevented an intervention. The relative's call simply didn't meet the 'investigate' criteria. Sad, huh?
There have been stmts in the press and on Nancy Grace that CPS 'didn't do anything' because they were having a Christmas party. Let me assure you that they would not have done anything anyway...the Christmas party is completely irrelevant.
When someone calls CPS those folks want details. And they are so overwhelmed with serious cases, the fact that a relative described JE petting on BS and "trying to devour her with his eyes" wouldn't have registered on the CPS radar screen at all. In fact, if someone had said JE was molesting BS in their presence, CPS would have likely asked if the child had a parent who was a responsible caretaker and, if told yes, then CPS would have told them to have that parent swear out a warrant or be held complicit. Had the relative said that there was no responsible parent or caregiver, then CPS might have gotten involved. But just this fawning and flirting between BS and JE would NOT have constituted any sort of sexual abuse as far as CPS goes. I'm sure that the caseworker (who finally did speak with the relative) advised her to speak to TS, explain how it looked to the relatives, and keep talking until TS 'got it' that things were way outside the bounds of proper behavior between a 12 yr old and a mother's BF.
Years ago, when I first worked for CPS, we had a bit more flexibility with time and what we chose to follow up on that didn't meet the 'endangering the health and welfare of a child to the point that death may occur.' There's a chance that we would have followed up with a home visit, probably a visit to the school to talk to the child, maybe a background check if we were able to get info as to where the guy had come from. But child abuse rates have skyrocketed while funding has been cut and these days, it's a pretty dire situation that captures the attention of CPS.
I worked for CPS twice...once from the mid-70's - mid 80's and again for 9 months in 2001. I was so shocked by the slovenly attitudes of the case workers, their cavalier attitudes as they tossed reports into the trash without even showing them to supervisors, adversarial relationships with the agencies and school who should have been their allies, I quit in disgust. But as I went through the 'new and improved' training, I was also shocked at how serious reports needed to sound before they would be investigated. In my first 10 yrs, we went out on virtually every report, unless it was just sooo apparent that the caller was a vindictive relative with a pending child support case (it was a fairly small county...we knew lots of people, clients or not). But, when I went back in 2001, reports I would have rushed to get to 20 yrs prior, were tossed aside. The state had some sort of mathematical algorithm that determined whether a call warranted investigation. And in case you're thinking that this state was an anomaly, it wasn't...it was in the process of national certification state-wide.
Knowing now what was likely to have been going on in the Smith household, I have to wonder if there's an old-school caseworker somewhere in VA who now wishes she'd gone to speak with Tina. The more I think about it though, the more I'm convinced there was not. The description of the interaction between JE and BS simply would not have warranted any intervention. I'd like to think, "Maybe next time"...but I doubt that too. CPS limits its intervention to situations where they believe (or the mathematical algorithm believes) that a child is in imminent danger of his/her life. And while BS certainly met this criteria eventually, she did not meet it at the very moment someone called CPS.
Like I said...I'm not defending CPS...I detest this 'new model' that they work under. But I think, to be fair to those workers who do respond to some pretty dreadful situations, it needed to be pointed out that it wasn't a Christmas party that prevented an intervention. The relative's call simply didn't meet the 'investigate' criteria. Sad, huh?
LaLaw2000
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IMO, JE has taken two things from Brittany she will never get back 1.) Her mother, and 2.) her innocence and the rest of her childhood. I do not mean her mother is a 'thing' JE took away from her. She will forever miss her mother and regret that she lost her life at the hands of such a .
I am so glad that Brittany will get to say goodbye to her mother. She would never have gotten another chance to do so at the actual time the rest of Tina's family said their final goodbyes. She will see how much her mother was loved and that she in turn is loved. It will be a horrible ordeal for her, but later on I hope she will realize just who did this to her mother.
*I think JE flexed his wrist in that store as if it were bothering him and was also looking for either cuts or bruising. I want to know how Tina Smith was killed. Then I want to see the perpetrator get the ultimate punishment.
I am so glad that Brittany will get to say goodbye to her mother. She would never have gotten another chance to do so at the actual time the rest of Tina's family said their final goodbyes. She will see how much her mother was loved and that she in turn is loved. It will be a horrible ordeal for her, but later on I hope she will realize just who did this to her mother.
*I think JE flexed his wrist in that store as if it were bothering him and was also looking for either cuts or bruising. I want to know how Tina Smith was killed. Then I want to see the perpetrator get the ultimate punishment.
I think he was trying to get the door to close. When they entered it looks as if the door got hung up on the rug. He appears to be trying to straighten it and then uses his feet to slide the rug back so that the door will close freely. At least that's what it looks like to me. He really looks quite manic as he is doing it though.
my guess is regardless of what she said he did or didn't do, they would do a physical exam.
Patty G
Retired WS Staff
What is sad is that no one called until Friday, December 3, 2010 when it was noticed on Thursday, November 25, 2010.
Although, when I first heard stroking Brittany's hair and touching her arm, my first thought was not to call DCF, but to talk to the mother right on the spot. Actually, knowing me, I would have confronted him right on the spot.
Cases like these require the police .. call 911. Let them get involved and if need be, they get DCF invovled if the parent isn't protecting her child from her boyfriend etc. ALL IMO!
impatientredhead
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The article I saw said they pretty much compared notes with each other after Tina left, confronted Tina about it in the following days, weren't confident that was enough and started calling child services on Monday. It took them a couple of days of redirects to get to the correct office. They told Tina that they had called CPS and she said he would be gone, she would call when he was packed up, she never called and the rest of the story we have seen.
The neighbors said he was creepy with her, the clerk said he thought they were a couple, someone at the school must have seen something, or other parents. He wasn't hiding the inappropriateness of their relationship. I can see how the family responded since it was their first exposure to it but from Tina, to the neighbors, to the bystanders it seems like many people were aware of it and did nothing.
Her family didn't even know he lived there until the holiday get together brought it out. They responded pretty quickly and followed up from I can see.
With that behavior, there would be nothing the police could do. If it's not unwanted behavior, then it's not assault. If the mom says they're just affectionate, what can the police do? They can't arrest someone because a relative doesn't like that he's touching the girl's arm and hair. The police might find it kinda creepy, too, but I can't think of a charge that would fit the situation as it's been explained in the media.
Patty G
Retired WS Staff
I don't recall reading that they told Tina on Monday Nov 29, 2010 that they called CPS. Do you have a link so that I can read that part please?
Ransom
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http://articles.wdbj7.com/2010-12-09/christmas-party_25184345
more was on NG tonight. Two jurisdictions called by family. They finally called BACK on Dec. 3rd and it was too late.
salvarenga
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That is a great question Patty. I would imagine that they had trained counselors that deal in these types of situations. That would be able to ascertain if Brittany was truthful or not. Either way, I would imagine she got a physical exam of some sort.
Patty G
Retired WS Staff
There are no dates of the phone calls in the article to CPS, all it said was days before Brittany went missing. I heard that CPS called back on Monday, Dec 6, 2010.
What I am also looking for is that the relatives told Tina they called CPS.
I recorded Nancy show as well as Prime News coverage of Brittany and it can be viewed here:
http://www.youtube.com/Sierra1947
Patty G
Retired WS Staff
I agree, some sort of physical exam but not so sure a "GYN" exam if she refuses.
impatientredhead
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I didn't word that well and I will pull the links, but I was trying to say they didn't wait a week. The rough outline of what I understood it to be was:
they didn't know he lived there
holiday brought that info out
met him first time on thanksgiving
totally geebed out
family compared notes on Friday
called tina on monday
still not comfortable after that call
started calling child services
took a couple of days of redirect
got the right facility number on thursday
told tina then they were calling her local cps office
this freaked tina out
she said he would be gone and would call when he packed up
brittany didn't go to school the next day
tina's posts about dying before she wakes and evil appear
and she is killed
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