Verdict: GUILTY for both Millard and Smich of 1st degree murder #2

[canadiangirl]

Millard and Smich were intimidated by Igor, and that's why they did not kidnap him.

"Igor Tumanenko, a former Israeli soldier by way of the Soviet Union, became an integral part of the police investigation into the disappearance of Bosma on May 6, 2013 because he went on a test drive with Dellen Millard and Mark Smich just a day earlier."

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...before-tim-bosma-considers-himself-lucky.html

“I told him I was familiar with this engine from Israeli army experience,” said Tumanenko.

He said there was a pause and then the short guy, who had “been quiet like a fish,” asked what he had done in the army.

“You don’t want to know what I did there,” Tumanenko replied.

He described the tall guy turning around to the short guy, a look passing between them.

The test drive ended and Tumanenko didn’t make the sale"

https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/...case-as-tim-bosma-murder-trial-continues.html

I know all about the theories why Igor was spared. But I am still of the belief guns beat humans, no matter the size or intimidations of another human being. One or 2 armed men vs one unarmed male? 2 against one with one or 2 guns are pretty good odds IMO

 

[otto]

Then how do you explain the conversation between Isho and DM stating the gun would be a dirty girl when it came back but no worries. Isho could change her print.

The response was to the question of whether lyrics that appear to be about the murder, and written within two weeks of the murder, should be admissible as evidence. I think that a statement presented as lyrics should be admissible, and that it is no different than a written or spoken statement.

 

[canadiangirl]

I think this is what is at the heart of my last niggling doubts about Smich's culpability. Millard is a psychopath or something very much like it. This personality type doesn't have relationships like normal people do, just a series of exploitive and/or self serving arrangements. Noudga evidence made it clear that Millard manipulates and leverages emotional or initimate bonds to get what he wants, and I have very little doubt that he thoroughly capitalized on the desire of the fatherless, brotherless Smich for a close male relationship. Millard's thoughts and perceptions and dizzying sense of entitlement are so very clearly utterly abnormal that I don't feel I can make the leap that what was in DM's head had to be in MS's. Or be completely certain that DM's impulsivity and poor self control didn't drag MS into a nightmare.

That combined with the kind of evidence that contributed to the conviction - its vulnerability to subjectivity and post hoc analysis - I just can't feel certain in the same way that many can. Maybe things will look different to me after the LB evidence comes in. I'm 100% open to changing my mind and seeing things differently, there just hasn't been any evidence or argument that has done that. Yet.

Junebug you've summarized everything very nicely IMO. I'm also open to changing my mind once the LB trial comes, however at this point we don't know the evidence in the other case.

Therefore based on this case alone, I see a guy who was a follower, who was manipulated by his "brother" just like every single person in his circle including his own family members to his own advantage no matter the cost. DM courtroom antics lend credibility all on their own to his instability and self destruction.

 

[deugirtni]

Millard and Smich were intimidated by Igor, and that's why they did not kidnap him.

"Igor Tumanenko, a former Israeli soldier by way of the Soviet Union, became an integral part of the police investigation into the disappearance of Bosma on May 6, 2013 because he went on a test drive with Dellen Millard and Mark Smich just a day earlier."

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...before-tim-bosma-considers-himself-lucky.html

“I told him I was familiar with this engine from Israeli army experience,” said Tumanenko.

He said there was a pause and then the short guy, who had “been quiet like a fish,” asked what he had done in the army.

“You don’t want to know what I did there,” Tumanenko replied.

He described the tall guy turning around to the short guy, a look passing between them.

The test drive ended and Tumanenko didn’t make the sale"

https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/...case-as-tim-bosma-murder-trial-continues.html

MS testified that IT's vehicle was equipped with On-Star.

From May 17 testimony (read them backwards, from bottom up)

Adam Carter ?@AdamCarterCBC
Sachak and Smich now talking about the "variables" when scoping Tumanenko's truck. #TimBosma #Bosma

Susan Clairmont ?@susanclairmont
Smich describing where Tumanenko's truck was parked.

molly hayes ?@mollyhayes
Sachak suggests lots of potential witnesses in that area as well. Smich agrees it'd be one of the variables possibly. #Bosma

Lisa Hepfner ?@HefCHCHNews
They just parked the Yukon around the corner, Smich says. It was a highrise. "Lots of potential witnesses," Sachak suggests.

Lisa Hepfner ?@HefCHCHNews
Smich believes Tumanenko's truck had a tracking system and that's why they decided not to steal it.

Susan Clairmont ?@susanclairmont
"If there was, that would have been the reason it was a no go," says Smich. Parked Yukon around corner from his apartment.

molly hayes ?@mollyhayes
Smich says he thinks Igor's truck had OnStar or something. "That would've been the reason that was a no go," he says. Also the area. #Bosma

molly hayes ?@mollyhayes
Sachak says Igor tells them he's happy to hold the truck for them, but Millard tells him they had others to test drive. #Bosma

Susan Clairmont ?@susanclairmont
Smich says he thinks Tumanenko had On-Star, so they were going to scope out other trucks.

Adam Carter ?@AdamCarterCBC
Smich says he believes Tumanenko had an Onstar tracking device in his truck, so they were going to look at other vehicles. #Bosma #TimBosma

 

[canadiangirl]

The response was to the question of whether lyrics that appear to be about the murder, and written within two weeks of the murder, should be admissible as evidence. I think that a statement presented as lyrics should be admissible, and that it is no different than a written or spoken statement.

So you give the same weight to the lyrics as evidence as the isho conversation about the dirty girl with DM? But yet the court didn't. One the jury did not hear.

 

[otto]

I know all about the theories why Igor was spared. But I am still of the belief guns beat humans, no matter the size or intimidations of another human being. One or 2 armed men vs one unarmed male? 2 against one with one or 2 guns are pretty good odds IMO

Igor wasn't "spared". Millard and Smich abandoned the plan to kidnap and murder Igor because they were intimidated by his Israeli military experience and his size. Bosma was kidnapped and murdered the following day because he was not intimidating.

An inexperienced person would be terrified at the appearance of a gun during a vehicle road test, but a member of the Israeli military would have a good chance of disarming inexperienced civilians like Millard and Smich.

Regardless, the only reason to take a gun on a road test is to use the gun to steal the vehicle and eliminate the witness, which means that the murder was premeditated.

 

[Miranda16]

Took me a bit to find it again. Couldn't link it but Susan Clairmont tweets. Closing arguments. Leitch states MS testified about Igor having GPS in his truck but Igor was never asked the question

Ah OK. Thank you. I think I recall it now but I discounted it in my mind because it becomes an excuse for MS (I.e. the 'real' reason why IT wasn't harmed because it was a scoping mission only). However we don't know if it was true, and we don't know how MS discovered it AFAIK.

 

[otto]

So you give the same weight to the lyrics as evidence as the isho conversation about the dirty girl with DM? But yet the court didn't. One the jury did not hear.

Does the "conversation about the dirty girl" have any connection to the successful murder of the owner of a truck?

 

[Miranda16]

Then how do you explain the conversation between Isho and DM stating the gun would be a dirty girl when it came back but no worries. Isho could change her print.

maybe timing? Iisho text closer to the LB murder so it was inadmissible, whereas the MS rap was modified after the TB murder?

 

[canadiangirl]

Igor wasn't "spared". Millard and Smich abandoned the plan to kidnap and murder Igor because they were intimidated by his Israeli military experience and his size. Bosma was kidnapped and murdered the following day because he was not intimidating.

An inexperienced person would be terrified at the appearance of a gun during a vehicle road test, but a member of the Israeli military would have a good chance of disarming inexperienced civilians like Millard and Smich.

Regardless, the only reason to take a gun on a road test is to use the gun to steal the vehicle and eliminate the witness, which means that the murder was premeditated.

People speculated BOTH brought guns. I think Igor would need to be super human to disarm both people in an enclosed space when he would clearly be at a disadvantage. Also if you assume MS was the shooter, Igor is again at a disadvantage.

You are entitled to your opinion. My opinion is I don't think that what was in DM twisted mind was in MS as well. MOO

 

[canadiangirl]

maybe timing? Iisho text closer to the LB murder so it was inadmissible, whereas the MS rap was modified after the TB murder?

Possible. But then the incinerator texts between DM and MS was a full year before in 2012.

 

[Miranda16]

I know all about the theories why Igor was spared. But I am still of the belief guns beat humans, no matter the size or intimidations of another human being. One or 2 armed men vs one unarmed male? 2 against one with one or 2 guns are pretty good odds IMO

pretty good odds but not good enough IMO (combined with the other factors such as location, possible GPS, daylight, etc.). Intimidation was likely one factor.

ETA: when I said not good enough I was referring to the one gun scenario. In a two gun scenario I don't think intimidation would be a factor

 

[slowsleuthy]

People speculated BOTH brought guns. I think Igor would need to be super human to disarm both people in an enclosed space when he would clearly be at a disadvantage. Also if you assume MS was the shooter, Igor is again at a disadvantage.

You are entitled to your opinion. My opinion is I don't think that what was in DM twisted mind was in MS as well. MOO

ya, but MS was sick on that drive, so he just wasn't up to anything strenuous.

 

[Miranda16]

Junebug you've summarized everything very nicely IMO. I'm also open to changing my mind once the LB trial comes, however at this point we don't know the evidence in the other case.

Therefore based on this case alone, I see a guy who was a follower, who was manipulated by his "brother" just like every single person in his circle including his own family members to his own advantage no matter the cost. DM courtroom antics lend credibility all on their own to his instability and self destruction.

Well said as usual, though even if heavily manipulated, if MS knew in advance that DM was planning a murder he's culpable for going along. I know you are aware, just reiterating it. That's the distinction between MS and SS. Though in my opinion MS, while possibly a follower, was a knowledgable and willing (even eager) participant. With SS he certainly should have suspected at the minimum but we can prove this, and he didn't go on missions.

 

[palisadesk]

MS testified that IT's vehicle was equipped with On-Star.

I thought On-Star was only for GM vehicles? I have a Dodge and it wasn't an option that I know of. Anybody know?

 

[otto]

People speculated BOTH brought guns. I think Igor would need to be super human to disarm both people in an enclosed space when he would clearly be at a disadvantage. Also if you assume MS was the shooter, Igor is again at a disadvantage.

You are entitled to your opinion. My opinion is I don't think that what was in DM twisted mind was in MS as well. MOO

Evidence relates to one gun. Speculation plays no part in a murder conviction.

If the passenger in the back seat pulled a gun, Igor may have used the passenger in the front seat as a shield.

Smich is either a rather unlucky fellow to be charged with not one, but two, murders, or he is a murderer with no respect for others or the law. Was the hope that Smich would be found guilty of manslaughter even though he participated in a carjacking and murder of a 32 year old family man? If so, why? Does he seem like a loser who looked up to Millard, and therefore he should not be responsible for his actions?

 

[canadiangirl]

Well said as usual, though even if heavily manipulated, if MS knew in advance that DM was planning a murder he's culpable for going along. I know you are aware, just reiterating it. That's the distinction between MS and SS. Though in my opinion MS, while possibly a follower, was a knowledgable and willing (even eager) participant. With SS he certainly should have suspected at the minimum but we can prove this, and he didn't go on missions.

And that is how I have always viewed things. The only thing that set MS apart from others, is he was there.
SS and AM had very similar knowledge, (AM was actually arrested in the beginning for the murder), the only difference, they just weren't there. MOO

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

I know all about the theories why Igor was spared. But I am still of the belief guns beat humans, no matter the size or intimidations of another human being. One or 2 armed men vs one unarmed male? 2 against one with one or 2 guns are pretty good odds IMO

Not against a highly trained and skilled ex-Israeli soldier, IMO.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[otto]

ya, but MS was sick on that drive, so he just wasn't up to anything strenuous.

Who said that Smich was sick? If that came from Smich, it is not credible due to the fact that his story does not match the evidence.

 

[Miranda16]

People speculated BOTH brought guns. I think Igor would need to be super human to disarm both people in an enclosed space when he would clearly be at a disadvantage. Also if you assume MS was the shooter, Igor is again at a disadvantage.

You are entitled to your opinion. My opinion is I don't think that what was in DM twisted mind was in MS as well. MOO

if they both had guns (a distinct possibility in my mind) then I agree with you (though under this scenario clearly MS is guilty of M1 because he knows about the incinerator and brings a loaded weapon to test drives. The idea that MS would bring an empty gun while DM unbeknownst to MS had a loaded one isn't credible IMO).