Verdict Watch Discussion Thread

[NoodlesMcgee]

So yesterday, when the judge was refreshing evidence, and doing the charge, it was mentioned in a summary of items that Hag and (*) Made a pact for MS to take the fall.
This really stood out to me obviously, and earlier I was going to post that, and now I see this question from jury. The reason I am putting a (*) Is because full disclosure, in my notes yesterday I wrote 'Hag and Sh made a pact for Ms to take the fall'
I'm presuming that I meant Michelski( which short handed to the sound sh for ch) and that it wasn't SS I had to write really fast sometimes, as I would try to write down exact words to keep the context.
Hopefully this all made sense

That's big if true, although I don't recall any of the media tweeting this. They weren't tweeting a lot during the judges summary but obviously a lot during the original testimony. I wonder if it was an error by the judge in his summary or if all the media really missed it.

 

[DeaconBrodie]

I had wondered about this 'agreement' as well when I read about it. It seemed strange that nobody questioned him about exactly what this agreement was.

I assumed that everyone had been advised in legal arguments that it was off limits, so they left it alone, but that's JMO.

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

The two guns thing seems like an obvious appeal point for the crown if they don't get the result they want. There's no proof that only one gun was shot as far I know. We know there was one cartridge but no idea what happened with TB.

That said if it was allowed, it's probably an obvious appeal for the defense teams. So a tough call for the judge there.

 

[RandomName479]

And those "unusual web sites". Maybe Abro was right and someone else set those up in AM'S name...perhaps DM?

I thought it was SS.....not AM? Or did I miss something else?

 

[littlesauce]

Okay I've gone back and read through MH testimony.... Here are the tweets that stuck out to me:

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 1m1 minute ago
Hagerman said he disagreed about going to see Mark. They argued, and eventually agreed to dump it somewhere in Oakville. #Bosma

Shannon Martin ‏@ShannonMartinTV 1m1 minute ago Toronto, Ontario
Michalski said Dellen would've wanted the 'thing' to go to Mark. Hagerman disagreed. Words were heated. #Bosma

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 2m2 minutes ago
Wanted to get rid of it. Discussed giving it to Mark Smich. Talk was heated.

Shannon Martin ‏@ShannonMartinTV 2m2 minutes ago Toronto, Ontario
The two men decided to dump the items in Oakville. #Bosma

Alex Pierson ‏@AlexpiersonAMP 2m2 minutes ago
Hagerman. We were in a panic. "This thing got dumped in my lap. I wanted to get rid of it. "@AM900CHML #timbosma

Colin Butler ‏@ColinButlerCBC 2m2 minutes ago
Michalski said Millard wanted it to go to Mark Smich but Hagerman disagreed. They eventually agreed to drop it off in Oakville for Smich.

Hagerman says they were dumping these items in Oakville. "The ultimate decision is that Mark would have picked it up."
by Adam Carter 10:32 AM

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 2m2 minutes ago
Hagerman had no contact with Mark. But "Mark would have been able to take it off our hands," so went to Oakville where Smich lived.

Shannon Martin ‏@ShannonMartinTV 3m3 minutes ago Toronto, Ontario
Hagerman understood they'd dump the toolbox and blue bag in Oakville, so Mark Smich could pick it up #Bosma

Me and Andrew made a pact ... the faster and the further we got away from it, we could step away from it," Hagerman says.
by Adam Carter 2:27 PM

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 50m50 minutes ago
"I was not protecting him once." He and Michalski made "a pact" to dump stuff and step away.


Side note: re-reading MH's testimony brought back the emotion I felt when I first read it. That was heavy.

 

[mozzagirl]

So ok that throws out my theory of why the other guns weren't mentioned to the jury.

If MS admitted the other gun was also a .380 than that throws out the theory that it wasn't mentioned because the casing found was a .380 and the other gun wasn't. So obviously the real reason it wasn't mentioned is still under a publication ban.

 

[Roxie Rosa]

the jury I was on was for 2 defendants, it took us 3 days of deliberation. Speaking for myself....it takes quite a while to wrap your head around the fact that someone will actually murder someone..in my case, their own friend. Then I wanted a reason for why they did everything...which of course there was not always a known reason. Then you deal with all the things they did wrong...in our case, bragged to friends about the murder...who would do that? Eventually you get whittled down to the point where there is nothing left to argue, that they may be innocent. Don't forget that when the defendant has family, you feel for them, and how the verdict will affect everyone, not just the accused. It is very emotional. In my case, most of us had tears in our eyes when the verdicts were read...first degree for two young guys. I have often thought back to that trial, and the process of coming up with a verdict, and spending so much time together, even such a sharing a motel room while sequestered. It is quite the process, and one that I that I came to respect, but a lot of pressure to sort it out and come up with a verdict. I don't think I have yet to forget the many points I heard at this trial, and it was 20 years ago..

 

[matou]

The other gun in the photo was a Bodyguard .380

http://m.thespec.com/news-story/672...bby-20-more-things-the-bosma-jury-was-never-t

 

[Tiggertoo]

MS and I have made eye contact on a few occasions and I also did not find him to have that "dead" look that AP has described. I feel sadness in his eyes to be honest. MOO.

Maybe the sadness is genuine. He may still have committed murder but be feeling crappy about the idea of going back to jail.
If there's anything we can take from movies it's that everyone has multiple facets, even killers.

 

[canadiangirl]

Okay I've gone back and read through MH testimony.... Here are the tweets that stuck out to me:

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes 1m1 minute ago
Hagerman said he disagreed about going to see Mark. They argued, and eventually agreed to dump it somewhere in Oakville. #Bosma

Shannon Martin ‏@ShannonMartinTV 1m1 minute ago Toronto, Ontario
Michalski said Dellen would've wanted the 'thing' to go to Mark. Hagerman disagreed. Words were heated. #Bosma

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 2m2 minutes ago
Wanted to get rid of it. Discussed giving it to Mark Smich. Talk was heated.

Shannon Martin ‏@ShannonMartinTV 2m2 minutes ago Toronto, Ontario
The two men decided to dump the items in Oakville. #Bosma

Alex Pierson ‏@AlexpiersonAMP 2m2 minutes ago
Hagerman. We were in a panic. "This thing got dumped in my lap. I wanted to get rid of it. "@AM900CHML #timbosma

Colin Butler ‏@ColinButlerCBC 2m2 minutes ago
Michalski said Millard wanted it to go to Mark Smich but Hagerman disagreed. They eventually agreed to drop it off in Oakville for Smich.

Hagerman says they were dumping these items in Oakville. "The ultimate decision is that Mark would have picked it up."
by Adam Carter 10:32 AM

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 2m2 minutes ago
Hagerman had no contact with Mark. But "Mark would have been able to take it off our hands," so went to Oakville where Smich lived.

Shannon Martin ‏@ShannonMartinTV 3m3 minutes ago Toronto, Ontario
Hagerman understood they'd dump the toolbox and blue bag in Oakville, so Mark Smich could pick it up #Bosma

Me and Andrew made a pact ... the faster and the further we got away from it, we could step away from it," Hagerman says.
by Adam Carter 2:27 PM

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 50m50 minutes ago
"I was not protecting him once." He and Michalski made "a pact" to dump stuff and step away.


Side note: re-reading MH's testimony brought back the emotion I felt when I first read it. That was heavy.

I have no doubt the gun was a set up and MS was surprised to receive it. MOO

 

[DMB]

There was also the letter from Millard saying Michalski should never had moved what had been hidden. I believe it was AM's decision after talking to CN to drop the "thing" off to MS and not that MS had asked for it

 

[canadiangirl]

I believe AM about as much as I believe SS! Both are as sly as snakes! I think MH was more honest and genuinely remorseful and felt sadness for the Bosma's. Even though he had 60+ pages of lies, IMO, he came more clean then the rest of them.

JMO

IMO Hagerman's big concern was his family name. I don't think he was in as deep as the rest. The odd thing here and there. It was shown he worked at a bar and at night is when some of these missions took place. Some bartenders are working well after close. So I have always felt he was more of a casual spotter vs hardcore into any kind of the other crap. Although he lied to police a lot, I've always felt he was a credible witness who was more into protecting his family name vs Millard’s. Unlike the other key players. MOO

 

[Georgeo]

I have no doubt the gun was a set up and MS was surprised to receive it. MOO

No doubt at all? Not even reasonable doubt? ☺️

We will never know the whole truth.

 

[Oreck]

The first day an alternate was placed. That would be the person on hold "Justice Goodman telling jury he needed to excuse one juror this morning. An alternate will move into that spot. #Bosma Feb 01, 2016

It probably depends on how far in if they would add an alternate. I'd assume no alternate after evidence had started.

One juror had to be taken out with wheelchair early on. I believe it was temporary. As for at this stage how to get out of it, how about becoming pregnant or diagnosed with a serious disease?
"Jurors are chosen from the city the case is to be held in. Even you could get called for jury duty.

"

I was excused from jury duty for life, I think, because I was overheard by a police officer when I jokingly said in a coffee shop that if that perp wasn't guilty the police would have charge him. Which was right in that case, but that doesn't matter.
I've never been called since.

 

[canadiangirl]

No doubt at all? Not even reasonable doubt? ☺️

We will never know the whole truth.

No doubt about the gun being dropped on him nope.

 

[brightii]

I'll have to rewatch LH's report but I think she said he's being better searched now... so I'm not sure if the implication is he was getting it while out for court.

Here is LH's report from earlier this evening at CHCH 6 o'clock news.

http://www.chch.com/day-2-deliberations/

All MOO.

 

[matou]

He carved out a chunk of concrete from his wall, put the shiv inside the hole and filled the hole with a mixture of concrete dust, lead pencil shavings and toothpaste to make it blend in with the rest of the wall.

http://www.chch.com/day-2-deliberations/

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Ok......hypothetical for anyone who paid close attention to the decision trees......

Let's say MS didn't know about the murder plan, but DID know DM was possibly bringing a gun along......

What verdict does that leave us with?

Justice Goodman went over that on Monday.

The judge yesterday cited section 21-2 of the Criminal Code:

(1) Every one is a party to an offence who

(a) actually commits it;

(b) does or omits to do anything for the purpose of aiding any person to commit it; or

(c) abets any person in committing it.

Marginal note:Common intention

(2) Where two or more persons form an intention in common to carry out an unlawful purpose and to assist each other therein and any one of them, in carrying out the common purpose, commits an offence, each of them who knew or ought to have known that the commission of the offence would be a probable consequence of carrying out the common purpose is a party to that offence.

Justice Goodman then gave an example:

A & B commit an armed robbery.

A decides to kill guard.

As it was an armed robbery, and B knew A had a gun, death was a probable consequence.

The question first is for A- say he met the conditions for 1st degree murder (eg. premeditation, planning) If the jury convicts A of 1st degree murder, you then look at B:

-B agreed and planned to steal
-B was a participant
-B knew death was a probable consequence

1st degree murder is not an option in this scenario. B is convicted of 2nd degree murder.

For 1st degree murder, B would have had to have known of A's intention to kill.

For 1st degree murder for the Bosma case: planning and intent to murder will have to be found for the shooter. For the person who is not the shooter, for 1st degree murder: planning and intention to assist the shooter in the act of killing Mr. Bosma.



(From my notes from Monday - happy to be corrected)

 

[Arnie M]

The gun the jury saw was a Walther PPK, believed to be the murder weapon. The gun that was cropped out was a Bodyguard .380.

When Smich took the stand, he confirmed — in the absence of the jury — that there was more than one gun belonging to him and Millard.

"There's multiple firearms of different calibers," he said.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/6...by-20-more-things-the-bosma-jury-was-never-t/

 

[Elisabeth]

He carved out a chunk of concrete from his wall, put the shiv inside the hole and filled the hole with a mixture of concrete dust, lead pencil shavings and toothpaste to make it blend in with the rest of the wall.

http://www.chch.com/day-2-deliberations/

Hiding the shiv was just a mission. I think he will have lots of missions in prison. In fact, prison might be a good sandbox for his desire for missions.