Verdict Watch Discussion Thread

[XiolaBlueX]

That's big if true, although I don't recall any of the media tweeting this. They weren't tweeting a lot during the judges summary but obviously a lot during the original testimony. I wonder if it was an error by the judge in his summary or if all the media really missed it.

The media IMO miss tweeting a lot of material, for a few reasons in my opinion 1) they are focused on the main points for a larger audience 2) I really think a lot of them would look at certain details as minutiae, which WSs for example wouldn't 3) yesterday was full of so much technical info that is really hard to explain without the use of a diagrams or something 4) perhaps most significantly, they are typically tweeting on an electronic device really quickly and trying to get the main points out (as well as limited by characters) whereas I was using a pen and notebook and trying to catch every word I could and write it down as I found so much gets left out in tweets. I think they literally don't have the time to to type out or even catch some of the Items sometimes.

Edited to add - whether the judge made an error in including that statement yesterday remains to be seen, but I know I heard it! keep in mind that IMO it isn't necessarily evidence, as what was said in his charge isn't. So maybe it was what was already argued out and tomorrow he will tell the jury to disregard as it shouldn't have been said or admissible
IMO only

 

[Bellers]

I have often thought back to that trial, and the process of coming up with a verdict, and spending so much time together, even such a sharing a motel room while sequestered.

You had to share a room?! After spending all damn day with these people you have to go back and potentially listen to one of them snore all night? I would go insane.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Millard tried to get Smich’s girlfriend to wear a fake pregnancy belly to smuggle drugs across the border and he had his mechanic build secret compartments into a trailer.

Thought the first time the pregnancy belly was mention it was to smuggle ammunition in from the States. Now LH is reporting that it was to smuggle drugs?

http://www.chch.com/day-2-deliberations/

 

[Gibson67]

The gun the jury saw was a Walther PPK, believed to be the murder weapon. The gun that was cropped out was a Bodyguard .380.

When Smich took the stand, he confirmed — in the absence of the jury — that there was more than one gun belonging to him and Millard.

"There's multiple firearms of different calibers," he said.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/6...by-20-more-things-the-bosma-jury-was-never-t/

but yet he testified in front of the jury that he did not own a gun. hmmm

 

[CJPRINCESS]

3. A man who observed the trial found police at his doorstep after he breached a publication ban by posting legal arguments to a Facebook page with nearly 1,000 members dedicated to the Bosma case.

The man even wrote that he wasn't sure if he could publish the information, but did so anyway. The posting was brought to the attention of Justice Goodman who ordered an investigation. The man was not charged.

"This highlights the difficulty in the electronic age," assistant Crown Tony Leitch said.

Oops!

 

[XiolaBlueX]

3. A man who observed the trial found police at his doorstep after he breached a publication ban by posting legal arguments to a Facebook page with nearly 1,000 members dedicated to the Bosma case.

The man even wrote that he wasn't sure if he could publish the information, but did so anyway. The posting was brought to the attention of Justice Goodman who ordered an investigation. The man was not charged.

"This highlights the difficulty in the electronic age," assistant Crown Tony Leitch said.

Oops!

Omg, if one of us accidentally did that, I can picture LE showing up and we would be researching the case as they showed up. They'd probably put us somewhere for mental help instead of contempt charge for being so 'obsessed' :facepalm:

 

[Arnie M]

Just before Easter in 2013 Millard asked Meneses to wear a fake pregnancy belly to smuggle bullets into Canada from the U.S.

"It's kind of like a bathing suit and then it had a plastic belly," Meneses told the court, while the jury was out. She tried it on at Millard's house.

But Smich forbade her from getting involved.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/6...by-20-more-things-the-bosma-jury-was-never-t/

.................................

Smich was not allowed to cross the border because of his criminal record so it appears DM himself planned to take MM to the USA and use her as a "mule" to transport contraband .... nice way to treat your "friends"

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Also kept out of evidence was a text message the lawyers believed was a reference to drugs from Millard to gun/drug dealer Iisho that said: I'm good for that date with that Spanish girl.

That Sun site link I posted up said, the gun was the "Spanish girl". Funny how each reporter tells the story. Now we'll have to Sleuth the reporters reports lol

http://www.thedailyobserver.ca/2016...cuseds-theory-in-tim-bosma-murder-trial-judge
Millard texted Iisho that he, :would be bringing her back a dirty girl,” meaning he would be using the deadly weapon, which he also called his “Spanish girl.”

I see this reporter also removed the "9mm" as the gun and replaced with "deadly weapon".

 

[Elisabeth]

I haven't read Goodman's instructions to the jury in careful detail, nor all of the posts here but a few things are sticking out for me:

1) I am bothered by Goodman's summary of key evidence. For example(and others here have commented on this), Goodman saying there was no financial motive. DM himself said he needed to make 100k a month. It is also DM's perception of his cash flow problem that would be the motivation. He seemed to be doing some tapdancing around the condo deal etc. I saw no real evidence that he was business or finance savvy. DM also said there was no more money and he would be taking from source. Ironically, the incinerator had already been purchased (probably for another murder). So you cannot say it makes no sense to purchase it just to get a truck. And if you are murdering people to take there things then you can spread out the cost of the incinerator against all of the things you stole. DM provided evidence that he planned to be doing a lot of stealing, no?

I also was afraid the jury would focus on what Goodman focused on but they seem to have gone way past that. (To the horror of some with their opening question..)

2) I am hoping to find real legal insight into both Goodman's instructions as well as the evidence he excluded. (I mean an article, paper, etc from a real lawyer...)

I too am a bit uncertain on excluding the evidence on two guns. It narrowed down the discussion to there being one shooter and one gun. There could well have been two guns pulled on Tim Bosma. There could have been one of the guns (DMs?) in the toolbox which surprised MS. MS may have already taken care of his own gun. By excluding the evidence that there were two guns, it makes others evidence more difficult to put in context. However as i said, I have not read all of the posts here and others may be able point me to a good explanation?

3) I could try and put the decision trees into Visio (and a tree format) if that would be helpful. Am I allowed to do that? It would have to be on the weekend as I have not been feeling well. It would also be from the tweets. Molly and Adam had better tweets explaining some of the trees. It bothers me when journalists shy away from conceptual information as "technical". You can explain a tree by going from the top and then down each branch. Of course this assumes the judge explained it that way if the journalists couldn't see it.

thanks !

 

[Alethea Dice]

So yesterday, when the judge was refreshing evidence, and doing the charge, it was mentioned in a summary of items that Hag and (*) Made a pact for MS to take the fall.
This really stood out to me obviously, and earlier I was going to post that, and now I see this question from jury. The reason I am putting a (*) Is because full disclosure, in my notes yesterday I wrote 'Hag and Sh made a pact for Ms to take the fall'
I'm presuming that I meant Michelski( which short handed to the sound sh for ch) and that it wasn't SS I had to write really fast sometimes, as I would try to write down exact words to keep the context.
Hopefully this all made sense

In Dungey's cross of MH, he made the suggestion that MH and AM had made a pact to dump the drugs and toolbox on Smich. All I could find in the the main reporters' tweets about what MH said was that he said they made a pact to just dump the stuff and step away. Line 2823 from AC:

"Me and Andrew made a pact...the faster and the further we got away from it, we could step away from it", Hagerman says.

Maybe the jury is trying to determine if MH actually said the pact was to make MS take the fall. The tweets during the testimony sound more to me like it was just drop it anywhere to get it away from themselves and have nothing more to do with it. MH said he didn't care if MS got it or not, he just wanted it away from him and AM.

 

[Alethea Dice]

Also kept out of evidence was a text message the lawyers believed was a reference to drugs from Millard to gun/drug dealer Iisho that said: I'm good for that date with that Spanish girl.

That Sun site link I posted up said, the gun was the "Spanish girl". Funny how each reporter tells the story. Now we'll have to Sleuth the reporters reports lol

I spent a lot of time trying to figure that one out tonight. And now I'm far behind again.

 

[XiolaBlueX]

Just before Easter in 2013 Millard asked Meneses to wear a fake pregnancy belly to smuggle bullets into Canada from the U.S.

"It's kind of like a bathing suit and then it had a plastic belly," Meneses told the court, while the jury was out. She tried it on at Millard's house.

But Smich forbade her from getting involved.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/6...by-20-more-things-the-bosma-jury-was-never-t/

.................................

Smich was not allowed to cross the border because of his criminal record so it appears DM himself planned to take MM to the USA and use her as a "mule" to transport contraband .... nice way to treat your "friends"

Interesting the difference a few words makes. This article has the slant of 'MS forbade her from getting involved' however last night or this morning, I remember reading the 'MS did not think it was a good idea' I forget the source, Molly or Adam? Anyhow, not to slag on SC, but I also noticed that she wrote that DM and his friends did Heroin and he did cocaine, when I believe that the case is the other way around - that the group of friends including DM in general did cocaine and DM allegedly did heroin. (Obviously there can be overlaps there with drug use too)

 

[Claroon]

This is another time when he used the term "pact" not "agreement." It was in the cross examination, "Dungey accuses him of obstructing justice. Hagerman agrees.
"I was not protecting him once." He and Michalski made "a pact" to dump stuff and step away. Apr 07, 2016" - SC

 

[canadiangirl]

In Dungey's cross of MH, he made the suggestion that MH and AM had made a pact to dump the drugs and toolbox on Smich. All I could find in the the main reporters' tweets about what MH said was that he said they made a pact to just dump the stuff and step away. Line 2823 from AC:



Maybe the jury is trying to determine if MH actually said the pact was to make MS take the fall. The tweets during the testimony sound more to me like it was just drop it anywhere to get it away from themselves and have nothing more to do with it. MH said he didn't care if MS got it or not, he just wanted it away from him and AM.

But AM told MH that DM would want MS to have it and MH disagreed.

 

[Oreck]

"

I'd be surprised if this one took more than 5 days, although because there are two accused, and a lot of evidence, it's possible."

If you want to take a down to earth view, it shouldn't take any time at all for the jury to decide.
In the beginning Dellen bought a machine to dispose of bodies.
In the end he used it.
In the beginning Mark helped him buy a machine to dispose of bodies.
In the end, he helped Dellen use it.

.................................... Done.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

I spent a lot of time trying to figure that one out tonight. And now I'm far behind again.

I made a post about the two guns earlier because of the Sun article and the new text of "the German". I'm going to go out on a limb and say the Sun guy is correct. They DM/Lisho refer to the gun as "she" so "Spanish girl" rings truer for the gun then it does drugs.

I think the lawyers are showing their age if that's what they really thought lol...Spanish girls=drugs. I think those drugs were called "Spanish flies" not "Spanish girls" lol

 

[Sphinx]

They have their notes and all of the exhibits, of which there are well over 100 if I recall correctly, that the judge said were being brought into the jury room for them to review as they see fit.

Are there still court staff, who record every word manually, or have they been replaced by audio recordings ? I should think they would need a paper backup in case of equipment failure IMO

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Interesting the difference a few words makes. This article has the slant of 'MS forbade her from getting involved' however last night or this morning, I remember reading the 'MS did not think it was a good idea' I forget the source, Molly or Adam? Anyhow, not to slag on SC, but I also noticed that she wrote that DM and his friends did Heroin and he did cocaine, when I believe that the case is the other way around - that the group of friends including DM in general did cocaine and DM allegedly did heroin. (Obviously there can be overlaps there with drug use too)

This is why I have mainly stuck to the trial tweets and what our fellow WS'ers had to say. I find the media (not all but some) like to twist things to make it more dramatic to their viewers. I recall that t was first reported that DM "tried heroine" but did steroids.

 

[Claroon]

I haven't read Goodman's instructions to the jury in careful detail, nor all of the posts here but a few things are sticking out for me:

1) I am bothered by Goodman's summary of key evidence. For example(and others here have commented on this), Goodman saying there was no financial motive. DM himself said he needed to make 100k a month. It is also DM's perception of his cash flow problem that would be the motivation. He seemed to be doing some tapdancing around the condo deal etc. I saw no real evidence that he was business or finance savvy. DM also said there was no more money and he would be taking from source. Ironically, the incinerator had already been purchased (probably for another murder). So you cannot say it makes no sense to purchase it just to get a truck. And if you are murdering people to take there things then you can spread out the cost of the incinerator against all of the things you stole. DM provided evidence that he planned to be doing a lot of stealing, no?

I also was afraid the jury would focus on what Goodman focused on but they seem to have gone way past that. (To the horror of some with their opening question..)

2) I am hoping to find real legal insight into both Goodman's instructions as well as the evidence he excluded. (I mean an article, paper, etc from a real lawyer...)

I too am a bit uncertain on excluding the evidence on two guns. It narrowed down the discussion to there being one shooter and one gun. There could well have been two guns pulled on Tim Bosma. There could have been one of the guns (DMs?) in the toolbox which surprised MS. MS may have already taken care of his own gun. By excluding the evidence that there were two guns, it makes others evidence more difficult to put in context. However as i said, I have not read all of the posts here and others may be able point me to a good explanation?

3) I could try and put the decision trees into Visio (and a tree format) if that would be helpful. Am I allowed to do that? It would have to be on the weekend as I have not been feeling well. It would also be from the tweets. Molly and Adam had better tweets explaining some of the trees. It bothers me when journalists shy away from conceptual information as "technical". You can explain a tree by going from the top and then down each branch. Of course this assumes the judge explained it that way if the journalists couldn't see it.

thanks !

Yes, it was complicated. For your 1) that is reaching beyond this trial IMO. We know it was the beginning of him trying to make $100,000 with nefarious activity, but this trial is about truck theft and one murder. I think what the judge was referring to was DM didn't need to steal a truck as he had access to money to buy one. Heck he could have traded in his red one IMO.

I agree with you about the guns in 2). SC mentioned it was because only one shell casing was found, therefore one gun. A photo isn't quite the same. But still, BD talking about the zombie bullets, could have been supported by the evidence LE found on MS computer IMO. The judge did make a point IMO that true evidence (fact) is when there is an validation of a point.

Do your decision trees if you want. To me it seemed moot (sorry Goodman). I know this is serious, but I'm more of the "if I'm going to buy a house, do I have enough information to justify the purchase" or "if I left the dog dish full of food..." type.

 

[Alethea Dice]

When I was re-reading MH's testimony tonight, I noticed a few things that differed in his testimony and AM's.

1. They met at the park (which matches the text messages, but AM said they met at the house)
2. AM told him DM would want the toolbox to go to Smich (AM said Smich asked for it)
3. They each took an item down the stairs (I think AM said that MH took both items down)
4. After the drop, they took the dog to AM's house (AM said it was at MH's until MB and CN asked for it)
5. He said AM told him the blue and grey backpack had been given to him by Millard and he didn't know what was in it - assumed weed because of the smell (AM says he put the weed in the bag after Smich asked for it)

When did LE show up at DM's house? AM told MH that they had raided the house that morning (Saturday) and he didn't know what to do. I thought it was later that they came?