VERDICT WATCH - Sentencing of Jodi Arias - Break 2/27 thru 3/2 #2

[Steve44]

There was absolutely emotional rage and you can see it in the number of stab wounds to Travis' body. That's rage right there. Your opinion of her motive and calculating is interesting, but does not match either the facts of the case, Demarte's diagnosis, or the disordered crime scene. She wasn't evaluating data points, she was in pure "if I can't have you, no one else will have you" jealous obsession and rage. Overkill is all about rage. Stabbing someone is personal. This was a rage killing, pure and simple.

Most people with BPD are more self-destructive than inclined to murder. Their partners suffer because they are emotionally volatile, contradictory, unpredictable, and with poor impulse control particularly with regard to self-destructive habits. I don't doubt Dr. DeMartes diagnosis, but I think Arias' actions arose more out of sociopathy than BPD. The facts of the case match a calculated intention to kill, as supported by the premeditation evidence. In light of her sociopathy, I would say she was not obsessed with Travis, she was obsessed with what he could do for her, how marrying him would benefit her. There is a subtle but important difference. Her mother cried in the interrogation room about how her daughter could act so normal and happy, and this behavior was immediately after the murder. That does not indicate any kind of deep emotional bond, however broken, it indicates the cold emotional isolation of a sociopath, in which only their own life and emotions are real and have any value. To posit obsession with Travis into that void would be to give Travis reality as a human being in her psyche that could not exist. He was a thing to be used by her, and when he was no longer viable, and had actually become dangerous, she eliminated him, and was as normal after as if she had just taken out the trash.

 

[Wagara]

The drive to make Arias seem so much more than what she is, is something I've always found interesting.

She's a personality disordered, mentally unhealthy adult who murdered one person. That's it. Her violence stems from the reaction to the level of rejection and abandonment she perceived. This is not an unusual type of crime. It's actually very common. Jealousy, rage, abandonment also aren't unusual motives. Had Arias successfully killed TA with 1 gun shot and then left, this case wouldn't seem nearly as interesting.

It's the way it played out that made it seem like so much more. This otherwise normal looking woman, who had some people fooled (but certainly not all or even most) expressed her rage in a way that most women never do. And of course the media attention where there is an angle to publicize a crime (young people, secretly having sex, attractive woman by some standards, normal guy, twisted relationship, kinky sex). The kinky sex angle and the amount of blood and gore are what captured and catapulted this story. And then the games played after the murder and through the media.

Women follow this case far more than men and women despise with the heat of a thousand suns another woman who murders a "nice guy." The murdering woman has to be seen as a "she-devil" AND in the ultimate insult, she must be called derogatory names about her appearance (as if that actually matters).

The games played during the trials is for more than an 'an then' to me. They are the reason I follow this case in such a strong degree. The crime may be considered average by some but the aftermath is my prime interest.

 

[MissJ]

Most people with BPD are more self-destructive than inclined to murder. Their partners suffer because they are emotionally volatile, contradictory, unpredictable, and with poor impulse control particularly with regard to self-destructive habits. I don't doubt Dr. DeMartes diagnosis, but I think Arias' actions arose more out of sociopathy than BPD. The facts of the case match a calculated intention to kill, as supported by the premeditation evidence. In light of her sociopathy, I would say she was not obsessed with Travis, she was obsessed with what he could do for her, how marrying him would benefit her. There is a subtle but important difference. Her mother cried in the interrogation room about how her daughter could act so normal and happy, and this behavior was immediately after the murder. That does not indicate any kind of deep emotional bond, however broken, it indicates the cold emotional isolation of a sociopath, in which only their own life and emotions are real and have any value. To posit obsession with Travis into that void would be to give Travis reality as a human being in her psyche that could not exist. He was a thing to be used by her, and when he was no longer viable, and had actually become dangerous, she eliminated him, and was as normal after as if she had just taken out the trash.

ITA with you but may I suggest that she may have a personality cluster? I can see a little of BPD, Dependent and Sociopath in her.

 

[SuzDuJour]

If she has a lot of prison money she could buy some friends (and enemies that will resent her) and become popular. But I'm hoping she get sued and that it is indeed possible to limit her prison money as well.

I wondered if the family won a civil suit, would that cover commissary funds that they could take from Jodi?

 

[Steve44]

ITA with you but may I suggest that she may have a personality cluster? I can see a little of BPD, Dependent and Sociopath in her.

Yes, I agree.

 

[Steve44]

I wondered if the family won a civil suit, would that cover commissary funds that they could take from Jodi?

It would probably be impossible to take her every last cent. I've thought a lot about the 'privileges' that most prisoners are allowed. On the surface it angers us and seems unjust, but looking at the alternative in depth, it seems to me that it would result in profound, long-term psychological damage to the inmates, the end result of which would be a prison population orders of magnitude more difficult to control, with a far higher incidence of inmate to inmate and inmate to staff violence, and to what end? The primary purpose of incarceration is after all removing the offenders from society, and this is accomplished either way. To add psychological torture to the agenda may appeal to our sense of justice, but I suspect if played out it would add little or worse to our sense of our own humanity, and eventually would become an embarrassment, in addition to the practical difficulties already mentioned.

 

[Nali87]

I wondered if the family won a civil suit, would that cover commissary funds that they could take from Jodi?

I truly hope so. Leave her with like $5 dollars for tampons and toothpaste.
(Google wasn't any help except for a prisontalk forum http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-629057.html)

 

[BritsKate]

Her level of psychopathy is akin to that of:

Diane Downs, Jeffrey MacDonald, Susan Smith, Darlie Routier and hundreds of other killers. Told a bunch of lies, kept telling lies, kept telling even more lies, even when faced with evidence still lied and made up stories. Heinous murder, SODDI (some other dude did it). I find the circus around Arias more interesting than the murderess herself, who I actually find dull as killers go. A jealous rage, obsession and abandonment by an intimate partner is so common. She's not very interesting to me as a person.

Not all murderers who lie and cover up are psychopaths of course. Hare estimates only 20% of incarcerated individuals are psychopathic but those 20% are responsible for up to 80% of the most violent crimes. Of your list, only MacDonald has been diagnosed as a psychopath (though the judge barred the testimony). I'm not sure Smith is a psychopath - she's been dx'd with dependent personality disorder which would seem, to me, to be at odds with psychopathy. Diane Downs is the next closest to psychopathy with a dx of antisocial, histrionic, and narcissistic disorders. AFAIK, there's been no release of an actual dx for Routier. I suspect she has (at least) narcissistic personality disorder but she's probably psychopathic as well.

What's interesting is that the three female psychopaths in question all somehow disparaged or taunted their victims after death. Arias, obviously, with the abusive pedophile. Routier with silly string. Downs with Duran Duran and attempting to intimidate Christie on the witness stand. Both Routier and Downs were noted by ER staff to be unemotional at their children's deaths. All three women were involved with men who, at least initially, told authorities these women weren't capable of committing such violence too.

I've never seen any psychopath go to the level of character assassination Arias has.

JA was all about her image and reputation when it came to interacting with others, and she saw no other purpose in such interaction then to manipulate others to her advantage, either to get something specific that she wanted at the time, or to maintain and enhance her positive image and reputation which would alone allow her the widest possible latitude in her movements among people to eventually get what she wanted from them.

Her attempts to manipulate Travis into marriage through sex failed. In that process she revealed much to him about herself that was incongruous with the image it was so important for her to maintain. Her failure meant that an autonomous Travis would have been a direct threat, and from a credible source, to the image that was crucial
for her to maintain. IMO there was no emotional rage and Travis' murder did not arise out of any kind of deep psychic wound, no matter how pathological. It was, to her, a calculated practical consequence of the present situation, the next data point on a curve she had neither the desire nor felt the need to veer from.

We tend to think a lot alike. I've personally always believed Jodi killed Travis in a rage too - but a narcissistic rage. It's not about emotion but rather a threat to their ego.

Believing emotions played a part is incongruous to psychopathy. What we've seen is flat affect and bizarre displays of emotion that would certainly indicate feigning what she believes she should exhibit. Not that I believe psychopaths are totally without emotion - I've said before, they seem angry all the time but feel other emotions too - they're just 'dull' in comparison.

RBBM

Your opinion is worth a whole lot to me.
You have taught me so much about CMJA. Your insight helps me to understand her pure evil.
I always look for your posts because they are that good.
You have gone through hell, shared living through that hell with the members here.
Your posts also reinforce what I believe the outcome of this case should be...the DP. I have mixed feelings about the DP, but in this case I have no doubt that CMJA is an evil psychopath and will kill again if ever free in society.

Sometimes, it's really hard to share. Some stories are so unbelievable, even now, even to me and it drags up a lot of yuck and muck I'd sometimes rather forget. I really needed to read this today - thank you so much for taking the time to post. I really appreciate your kindness. :hug:

 

[Nali87]

It would probably be impossible to take her every last cent. I've thought a lot about the 'privileges' that most prisoners are allowed. On the surface it angers us and seems unjust, but looking at the alternative in depth, it seems to me that it would result in profound, long-term psychological damage to the inmates, the end result of which would be a prison population orders of magnitude more difficult to control, with a far higher incidence of inmate to inmate and inmate to staff violence, and to what end? The primary purpose of incarceration is after all removing the offenders from society, and this is accomplished either way. To add psychological torture to the agenda may appeal to our sense of justice, but I suspect if played out it would add little or worse to our sense of our own humanity, and eventually would become an embarrassment, in addition to the practical difficulties already mentioned.

I disagree. I think it's to punish. And if it's to punish, then no commissary full of funds for Jodi.

 

[SuzDuJour]

D

It would probably be impossible to take her every last cent. I've thought a lot about the 'privileges' that most prisoners are allowed. On the surface it angers us and seems unjust, but looking at the alternative in depth, it seems to me that it would result in profound, long-term psychological damage to the inmates, the end result of which would be a prison population orders of magnitude more difficult to control, with a far higher incidence of inmate to inmate and inmate to staff violence, and to what end? The primary purpose of incarceration is after all removing the offenders from society, and this is accomplished either way. To add psychological torture to the agenda may appeal to our sense of justice, but I suspect if played out it would add little or worse to our sense of our own humanity, and eventually would become an embarrassment, in addition to the practical difficulties already mentioned.

I do agree. Oddly, I was thinking of OJ and his doing everything in his power to keep things from his victims families. I do think prisoners should have access to basic needs. I'm cold, just not THAT cold...

 

[Nali87]

D

I do agree. Oddly, I was thinking of OJ and his doing everything in his power to keep things from his victims families. I do think prisoners should have access to basic needs. I'm cold, just not THAT cold...

Yes I agree with basic needs. Toothpaste, tampons, deodorant (to keep her Goddesslike smell), shampoo, soap and conditioner. She can have that. Some books and 1 magazine as well (I'm feeling benevolent).

But junk food, make up and hair dye and stuff are "luxury items" that should be out of Jodi Arias life forever.

Maybe one Doritos a month, but that's it. Don't ask more of me people.

 

[Nali87]

BritsKata, I googled Diane Downs after your posts (I've heard about her before but I wanted an update on her.) Can you believe her father STILL thinks she was wrongfully convicted? Will that be Sandy Arias in 30 years as well? Insane...

http://www.salem-news.com/articles/november132013/diane-downs-dad-tk.php

 

[BritsKate]

BritsKata, I googled Diane Downs after your posts (I've heard about her before but I wanted an update on her.) Can you believe her father STILL thinks she was wrongfully convicted? Will that be Sandy Arias in 30 years as well? Insane...

http://www.salem-news.com/articles/november132013/diane-downs-dad-tk.php

Sadly, he's not alone. I just read an article protesting her innocence by a Seattle journalist. He thinks MacDonald was railroaded too. Scary world we live in.

http://www.salem-news.com/articles/august172012/diane-downs-1-tk.php

 

[Steve44]

I disagree. I think it's to punish. And if it's to punish, then no commissary full of funds for Jodi.

I don"t disagree that she deserves to be punished. Incarceration is both punishment and isolation from society. I have the same visceral desire that the punishment be keen and close-felt. It's in taking the long view with its inevitable and ugly results that I question its practicality and even eventually, its desirability.

 

[Steve44]

Yes I agree with basic needs. Toothpaste, tampons, deodorant (to keep her Goddesslike smell), shampoo, soap and conditioner. She can have that. Some books and 1 magazine as well (I'm feeling benevolent).

But junk food, make up and hair dye and stuff are "luxury items" that should be out of Jodi Arias life forever.

Maybe one Doritos a month, but that's it. Don't ask more of me people.

One Dorito? Oh, the pain.

 

[rose222]

D

I do agree. Oddly, I was thinking of OJ and his doing everything in his power to keep things from his victims families. I do think prisoners should have access to basic needs. I'm cold, just not THAT cold...

I agree. As long as she is never let out of prison I don't mind if she has access to some basic beauty items and even some snacks. She'll still be living in a tiny little cell for the rest of her life. Now, some European prisons I've seen look more like hotels and that's just not right.

 

[rose222]

Having sex with a man, luring him into the shower, cornering him with both a gun and knife, stabbing him in the heart, in the head, hands etc., almost decapitating him, shooting him in the head, dragging his body into the shower, leaving him there to rot, driving off to grind another guy, buying yet another gun and stacking up on knives, going back to the scene of the crime, sending his grandmother flowers and a long letter, making up stories about abuse, pedophilia and self-defense, making cut-throat motions in court, peeking at the autopsy photos, continuing to torture the victim's family via posts and tweets, having friends threaten the prosecutor etc. etc. This cannot be compared to shooting someone to death. Worst of the worst applies both to this murder and this murderess.

 

[DebinGA]

I thought about that too. IIRC, Jodi mentioned loaning her stun gun to someone, so I'm guessing that she had one? That possibility was never mentioned by Juan, but it may be only because he couldn't prove it?

The best thing about JA volunteering that she'd offered her stun gun to Travis, for use in his planned stake-out of the tire-slasher, is that it shows TA didn't have a mythical gun she claims to have leaped and retrieved from the highest top-corner of his closet.

 

[Nali87]

Having sex with a man, luring him into the shower, cornering him with both a gun and knife, stabbing him in the heart, in the head, hands etc., almost decapitating him, shooting him in the head, dragging his body into the shower, leaving him there to rot, driving off to grind another guy, buying yet another gun and stacking up on knives, going back to the scene of the crime, sending his grandmother flowers and a long letter, making up stories about abuse, pedophilia and self-defense, making cut-throat motions in court, peeking at the autopsy photos, continuing to torture the victim's family via posts and tweets, having friends threaten the prosecutor etc. etc. This cannot be compared to shooting someone to death. Worst of the worst applies both to this murder and this murderess.

And yet you want her to have access to snacks. Smdh. (Just kidding Rose. I'm in a mood today.)

I'll be leaving for the day soon. I hope there's a verdict today. I hope the jurors used the three days to come to the conclusion that her mental illnesses aren't good enough mitigating factors for her crime.

 

[DebinGA]

Having sex with a man, luring him into the shower, cornering him with both a gun and knife, stabbing him in the heart, in the head, hands etc., almost decapitating him, shooting him in the head, dragging his body into the shower, leaving him there to rot, driving off to grind another guy, buying yet another gun and stacking up on knives, going back to the scene of the crime, sending his grandmother flowers and a long letter, making up stories about abuse, pedophilia and self-defense, making cut-throat motions in court, peeking at the autopsy photos, continuing to torture the victim's family via posts and tweets, having friends threaten the prosecutor etc. etc. This cannot be compared to shooting someone to death. Worst of the worst applies both to this murder and this murderess.

Exactly. And how many go a step further and try to assassinate his character at trial via despicable and provably-false lies? The best hope for a unanimous DP verdict will be due to the faithful daily presence of TA's siblings imo.