Very Smart

[aussiesheila]

Tipper,

This is exactly what my point is.
Isn't it funny that tea was placed right next to the pineapple,with no finger prints on the tea glass. Burke is the primary tea drinker. Why would the Ramsey's wipe down the tea glass,and leave it there? Especially if they were trying to cover up. They wouldn't.

Why would they leave a suit case right under a broken window,with JAR'S semen stained blanket. They wouldn't.

Why would they leave any kind of evidence that would make the family look guilty. They wouldn't.

Seems like a very smart and planned set up.

Maybe a Santa with white gloves drank the tea.

Maybe the suitcase and its contents belonged to JAR. Maybe he put the stuff in there because he didn't want anyone to find the stains on it. Then maybe John took it to the basement to get it out of the way and dumped it there on the floor somewhere. Then maybe one of the paedophiles who had been abusing JonBenet that night grabbed the suitcase and used it to climb onto to make a hasty exit out the window.

 

[BlueCrab]

The reason it seems odd is because they didn't do it and they didn't cover it up. It's exactly what it seems. A brutal message of hatred to JR.

Zman,

Why then the endless stream of lies, refusals to cooperate with the investigation, and meaningless responses to questions, flowing from the Ramseys?

In a normal murder case, one lie and your goose is cooked. There's only one reason to lie during a murder invstigation, and that's either because you are the killer or you're covering up for the killer.

The Ramseys have lied and covered up for 8 years and no one has been charged with anything. Please think hard about why no Ramsey has been criminally charged in the death of JonBenet. Think of a number less than 10.

BlueCrab

 

[aussiesheila]

Narlacat,

Maybe so ... but they had time to sit and write a rambling two and a half page ransom note,but not enough time to get rid of incriminating evidence? Doesn't make sense to me.

It makes sense if you think of Patsy writing the rambling ransom note while the perpetrators of the crime cleaned up down in the basement, hid JonBenet's body and attempted to get rid of all the evidence.

 

[aussiesheila]

capps,

Correct, but IMO the parents walked in on the horror around 3 or 4 in the morning before the kids finished the staging, which they had almost completed, including writing the ransom note. In my theory the parents were involved in just the tail-end of the staging, spending most of their time in such things as cutting JonBenet down from a grotesque position and repositioning her in the white blanket, calling attorney Mike Bynum who got the coverup organized, and getting the overnight "guests" out of the house. The parents ran out of time before they were sure all bases were covered and were forced to call 911 at 5:52 AM to make the timelines, such as being at the airport by 6:30, still fit.

Or IMO it was only Patsy who walked in on the horror, and it was at the sound of the scream at 2 am just after the paedophiles who had been abusing JonBenet accidentally killed her. Patsy was sent back up the kitchen to write the ransom note while the perpetrators cleaned up downstairs and hid the body.

And actually the parents DIDN'T call attorney Mike Bynum on the 26th or any other time, HE approached the parents on the evening of the 27th because he could see by then that the police believed they were guilty and he as a former prosecutor, knew that anyone in that position needed an attorney and he offered his services to them.

The person who Patsy and the perpetrators DID call at around 3 am was another paedophile who was also John's best friend, now former best friend. He then masterminded the coverup.

John knew nothing about it. The note was designed to stop John from calling the police at least until they could get rid of the body permanently. IMO

 

[BlueCrab]

And actually the parents DIDN'T call attorney Mike Bynum on the 26th or any other time, HE approached the parents on the evening of the 27th because he could see by then that the police believed they were guilty and he as a former prosecutor, knew that anyone in that position needed an attorney and he offered his services to them.

aussiesheila,

Don't believe everything you read coming from the people involved in the coverup.

Mike Bynum, with a lawfirm of over 300 attorneys, was the only person able to wield so much power in only a few hours. By 5 PM on the 26th Mike Bynum had Fleet White in his office telling him that everything's been taken care of and for him (Fleet White) to stay out of it.

At daybreak the next morning, the 27th, the Ramseys private investigators, hired by the politically-connected lawfirm of Haddon, Morgan and Foreman, which Bynum had already hired on the 26th, were on the street knocking on doors and locking witnesses into their statements, beating the BPD detectives to the punch.

John Ramsey couldn't have accomplished all of this by himself on the 26th. He had his hands full with other matters. Only Mike Bynum could have pulled it off.

BlueCrab

 

[Camper]

I may have missed a couple of posts in this thread.

About the tea and pineapple - dishes utensils etc. keep in mind some of the guests 'that' morning who were called over, tidied up some 'things' in the kitchen, washed em etc. This could in fact have made vital clues disappear either accidentally, purposefully er????

I am also wondering IF Burke had his own cell phone, so when he was out he could report to 'headquarters' as to his where a bouts. IF so, then that could have been the phone that 'might' have been used to make 'a' help call to their attorney.

I also believe that 'a' helpie call or calls were made that night that were never discovered by BPD. OR hidden by more 'cleverness', heck the phone could have been taken out of the house that morning when Burke left with White. Outta sight of BPD or anyone.



.

 

[Zman]

Zman,

Why then the endless stream of lies, refusals to cooperate with the investigation, and meaningless responses to questions, flowing from the Ramseys?

In a normal murder case, one lie and your goose is cooked. There's only one reason to lie during a murder invstigation, and that's either because you are the killer or you're covering up for the killer.

The Ramseys have lied and covered up for 8 years and no one has been charged with anything. Please think hard about why no Ramsey has been criminally charged in the death of JonBenet. Think of a number less than 10.

BlueCrab

Blue Crab I have yet to see any of the R's caught in a blatant lie of any kind. Only opinoins offered by people who already think they are guilty.
This is not a case of pedophila in any way. This was a violent attack and humiliation of JR's most prized possesion. (at least in the eyes of the attacker) Everything suggest the torture, ruining and devastation of JR at the expense of poor JBR.

 

[BlueCrab]

Blue Crab I have yet to see any of the R's caught in a blatant lie of any kind. Only opinoins offered by people who already think they are guilty.

Zman,

And you'll likely NEVER see a Ramsey tell a lie because you don't WANT to see a Ramsey caught in a lie. Some people are just that way; evidence is a nuisance and gets in the way of their beliefs. John Ramsey could piss on their leg and they'd swear under oath that it rained.

For instance, all three Ramseys -- John, Patsy, and Burke -- were caught in blatant lies on the enhanced 911 tape about Burke being in bed until 7 AM when he was actually downstairs talking to his parents at 5:52 AM. Before they were informed they had been caught on the tape lying, the three Ramseys were interviewed separately and each of the three responded with the same false story about Burke being in bed until taken to the Whites house at 7 AM.

The Ramseys have been proven to have lied dozens of times. They lied about Burke being in bed; they lied about Burke's Hi-Tec boots; they lied about the whereabouts of the missing Santa Bear; they lied about not being in the basement prior to the 911 call; they lied about the Stines not being their friends; etc., etc. All verified lies.

BlueCrab

 

[tipper]

When I hear about the so-called "enhanced" 911 tape I think Aisenberg. I haven't heard it, you haven't heard it. The only one who has heard it and is talking is ST. Hardly a reliable source. Until we hear it no conclusions can be drawn about what it does or doesn't show.

This constant use of the value laden word 'lie' is ridiculous. Any detective will tell you that perfect stories are suspicious and discrepancies are expected. If they don't happen it's a heads-up. The Ramseys are unique in that we are privy to their interviews. I expect if we had as many hours of interviews with John and Reve Walsh, Dorthy Moxley or any number of other parents of murdered children you would find similar discrepancies and failures of memory brought on by stress and they wouldn't be called 'lies.'

As was said earlier they were under a kind of stress none of us can comprehend, even those who have had loved ones murdered. The onslaught by the press and tabloids, the anti-Ramsey campaign run by Boulder LE, the trashing of their dead daughter, the accusations of incest, people shouting "murderer" at them in the streets. All on top of having their child murdered, not to mention having already lived through the stress of Patsy's cancer plus the loss of Beth.

I think they were definitely affected by the meds they were on. When they were on LKL John Ramsey showed clear evidence of neurological damage from the drugs he was taking. (For reasons known only to themselves, posters on another forum found it quite amusing and I recently saw a snide reference to it here).

Personally I don't care whether they killed her or not. I think they are a not wildly intelligent, fairly shallow couple coping for better or for worse with an unbelieveable situation.

But I can't put much faith in the words of posters who are so rabidly anti-Ramsey that they have no balance in their judgement about what is or isn't indicative of guilt.

 

[Shelayne]

~snipped~
When I hear about the so-called "enhanced" 911 tape I think Aisenberg. I haven't heard it, you haven't heard it. The only one who has heard it and is talking is ST. Hardly a reliable source. Until we hear it no conclusions can be drawn about what it does or doesn't show.

That is exactly what I thought of--because, of course, NO ONE walks into someone's home in the middle of the night and steals their child (ala baby Sabrina) the parents HAD to be involved. Let's see how many cases have there been since then...??

Anyway, that "enhanced" 911 call to me is very suspect--kind of like in the Aisenberg tape where "Have you called Dave?" became "You put her in a grave." I will reserve judgment until it is actually played.

 

[Jayelles]

That is exactly what I thought of--because, of course, NO ONE walks into someone's home in the middle of the night and steals their child (ala baby Sabrina) the parents HAD to be involved. Let's see how many cases have there been since then...??

Anyway, that "enhanced" 911 call to me is very suspect--kind of like in the Aisenberg tape where "Have you called Dave?" became "You put her in a grave." I will reserve judgment until it is actually played.

I too will reserve judgement on the enhanced 911 tape - after all, NONE of us have heard it

However, you can't really compare the Aisenberg tape with the Ramsey 911 tape. In the Aisenberg case, the issue was WHAT they were saying. In the Ramsey case, the issue was WHO's voice was on it (i.e. whether there was a child's voice on it as well as the two adult voices). IMO, it wouldn't really matter what Burke was saying - if it could be proved his voice was on the tape, it would look bad for the Ramseys in terms of truth telling.

Edited say:- ST is not the only one who has heard it. Several people have heard it. I'm sure Lou Smit has heard it and I find it very interesting that although he has offered alternative explanations for most of the "anti-Ramsey evidence" in the case, he has remained absolutely schtumm about that 911 tape. I think if he was convinced that Burke's voice was not on the tape, he would have yelled it from the rooftops.

 

[Jayelles]

.

This constant use of the value laden word 'lie' is ridiculous. Any detective will tell you that perfect stories are suspicious and discrepancies are expected.

Not ridiculous. The Ramseys are key witnesses in this case and it is crucial to establish the veracity/integrity of their statements. The fact is that John Ramsey has lied - big time - on several occasions. He lies to cover his backside and that is NOT good within the context of this case.

He lied to cover his adultery.
He lied about the reasons for his divorce.
He lied about his friendship with the Stines.
He lied in a deposition about the altercation with Fleet White in Atlanta.
Both Ramseys lied on television about the jonBenet Foundation donation to the kids camp in Michigan.
(these are just some of many)

Under no stretch of the imagination could these be dismissed as "discrepancies". They are big, fat lies and they reduce the worth of all Ramsey statements.

Let's face it, you are happy to state that ST is "hardly a reliable source" and yet you excuse the big fat ramsey lies as run of the mill "discrepancies". Don't tell us you don't have an axe to grind.

 

[Camper]

Include the dispatcher heard 'It' IF you would please. I think ST is reliable, his hearing appeared to be quite good.
Steve heard the DA deny him access to critical phone records and information that he requested. Information that could have sent someone to the striped jail cell spa.

As to John Walsh and Martha Moxley, and the comment that IF IF they were questioned at length, they too would have made boo boo's. Well, Martha and John did not have their dead child show up in their own home, with no forced entry, and lengthy Bogus 3 page ransom note, with nary a wrinkle in it.

Gives me pause for thought. Wonder if Samanthas mom took drugs to calm herself, SHE knew someone had her daughter, her daughter was REALLY REALLY GONE.

I remember vividly how Samanthas mom looked AFTER her baby was found dead, she suffered through it fighting with every breath in her body. SHE is still fighting. The last time I saw her she was not delusional with drugs, she was still fighting for her baby and the rights of all babies to just 'GROW UP'. A great BIG Hmmm from me.



,

 

[BlueCrab]

Burke's voice on the final four seconds of the 911 tape can be heard using amateur audio enhancement. Burke's voice is definitely on the 911 tape and anyone who wants to hear it can hear it. I heard it.

It's impossible to distinguish the words, but a child's voice is on that tape. Several months ago on this forum Voice of Reason, using his personal audio equipment, reproduced those final few seconds in segments and then repeated each segment four times in succession. It worked. It's only a guess as to what they are saying, but John's, Patsy's, and Burke's voices can be separately identified because of the different tones.

Burke's voice, unfortunately, was disrupted by the 911 dispatcher when she struck the keyboard right in the middle of Burke's less-than-one-second long statement. But it was definitely a child's voice.

In regard to the professionally-enhanced final few seconds of the 911 tape, produced for LE by Aerospace Corporation, the words of John, Patsy, and Burke are able to be understood. The words are not crystal clear, of course, but are recognizable words. The public has not heard this tape because it is incriminating evidence should there ever be a trial, but many LE personnel have heard it. I personally know of one detective who has played it over 50 times and is sure of every word said and who said it.

Burke's voice is on the 911 tape, the Ramseys lied, and it proves the Ramseys were engaged in a coverup even before the investigation had begun. As a result of that lie LE cannot rely on anything else the Ramseys claimed happened that night as being truthful. The Ramsey's entire account of events that morning were based on a deliberate lie.

BlueCrab

 

[tipper]

Burke's voice on the final four seconds of the 911 tape can be heard using amateur audio enhancement. Burke's voice is definitely on the 911 tape and anyone who wants to hear it can hear it. I heard it.

It's impossible to distinguish the words, but a child's voice is on that tape. Several months ago on this forum Voice of Reason, using his personal audio equipment, reproduced those final few seconds in segments and then repeated each segment four times in succession. It worked. It's only a guess as to what they are saying, but John's, Patsy's, and Burke's voices can be separately identified because of the different tones.

Burke's voice, unfortunately, was disrupted by the 911 dispatcher when she struck the keyboard right in the middle of Burke's less-than-one-second long statement. But it was definitely a child's voice.

In regard to the professionally-enhanced final few seconds of the 911 tape, produced for LE by Aerospace Corporation, the words of John, Patsy, and Burke are able to be understood. The words are not crystal clear, of course, but are recognizable words. The public has not heard this tape because it is incriminating evidence should there ever be a trial, but many LE personnel have heard it. I personally know of one detective who has played it over 50 times and is sure of every word said and who said it.

Burke's voice is on the 911 tape, the Ramseys lied, and it proves the Ramseys were engaged in a coverup even before the investigation had begun. As a result of that lie LE cannot rely on anything else the Ramseys claimed happened that night as being truthful. The Ramsey's entire account of events that morning were based on a deliberate lie.

BlueCrab

From ST's deposition under oath:


[...]

Q. So it was actually audible on that equipment at the Boulder Police Department?
A. No, Mr. Hoffman, let me make sure I understand you. What are you -- what was audible?
Q. Burke's or the voice of someone who could have been Burke Ramsey talking in the background at the very end of Patsy Ramsey's, you know, conversation with 911.
A. Well, you're cutting right to the punch line. There is a long story behind it but, yes, myself and others listened to that tape and heard this third voice.
[...]
A. -- was Detective Hickman's travel to the Aerospace Corp. in Southern California, their enhancement of that garbled noise at the end of that 911 call, those engineers preparing a report and making findings I think identical to the detective who was there with the tape, her returning to the
Boulder Police Department with this information and then each of the detectives listening on admittedly lesser equipment inside the Boulder Police Department to these findings, I concurred with others that there was a third voice on that tape that I believed to be Burke.

And yet in his book he says: "...she was heard to moan, 'Help me, Jesus. Help me, Jesus.' Her husband was heard to bark, 'We're not talking to you.' And in the background was a young-sounding voice: "What did you find?' It was JonBenet's brother, Burke."

What happened to John's voice? Clearly ST 'lied' either in his book or under oath.

Also how did Burke manage to cram "What did you find?' into a 'less-than-one-second long statement?'

If they did lie about Burke being up, it would raise some serious questions. But so far I haven't seen any proof that they did lie.

 

[Zman]

Burke's voice on the final four seconds of the 911 tape can be heard using amateur audio enhancement. Burke's voice is definitely on the 911 tape and anyone who wants to hear it can hear it. I heard it.


BlueCrab

Could not of put it better myself Blue Crab.

 

[tipper]

Very good, Zman.

 

[aussiesheila]

aussiesheila,

Don't believe everything you read coming from the people involved in the coverup.

Mike Bynum, with a lawfirm of over 300 attorneys, was the only person able to wield so much power in only a few hours. By 5 PM on the 26th Mike Bynum had Fleet White in his office telling him that everything's been taken care of and for him (Fleet White) to stay out of it.

At daybreak the next morning, the 27th, the Ramseys private investigators, hired by the politically-connected lawfirm of Haddon, Morgan and Foreman, which Bynum had already hired on the 26th, were on the street knocking on doors and locking witnesses into their statements, beating the BPD detectives to the punch.

John Ramsey couldn't have accomplished all of this by himself on the 26th. He had his hands full with other matters. Only Mike Bynum could have pulled it off.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,
I have done a lot of reading but I haven't come across any information pointing to Mike Bynum having Fleet White in his office by 5 PM on the 26th. Please could you tell me where you got that information.

 

[tipper]

According to Thomas, Bynum telephoned Fleet in the afternoon on the 26th. Don't know what time, presumably after he talked to John at the Fernie's.

 

[amordei]

This is ridiculous. The Ramseys have admitted that they lied about Burke's being asleep the morning of 12/26.