Viable suspect: Terry Hobbs #1

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I guess my "take" on this is that JCB's traumatic event was not one of national significance, but merely one of personal significance. From what I read (and posted), the more "personal" the event, the clearer the memories. So, people who were in Manhattan on 9/11/01 were much more accurate in "remembering" and much less susceptible to accepting a "false" memory as truth. The study cited in the Time article, as CL pointed out, was designed to try to implant "false" memories. In our case, JCB was merely recalling a traumatic event. Could she, after 14 years, have been wrong on minor points? Sure. However, I believe the research indicates that the major things (the time, the date, what she saw) were correct. Also, although the event was personal (she was Ryan's friend, she had seen the little boys on the night before they were found dead), it wasn't so personal that she would have repressed the memory. So, all things considered, I believe JCB's report to be factually accurate and extremely credible.
 
^ There's research to suggest otherwise. I will try to find the studies when I have more time.
 
^ In your opinion.

They could have been "implanted" (from 14 years of stimuli) or they could have simply materialized on their own. False memories do exist, whether you want to admit it or not -- hate to tell you.
 
Sure, false memories do exist and I don't think anyone here meant to say that they, categorically, don't. For every study asserting a certain conclusion, there's likely one to counter it or at least nuance it.

As with a lot of statements in this case, be it testimony from experts, alibi statements or whatever, it essentially boils down to who and what we find credible - i.e. it's highly subjective even when backed up by science etc. E.g. I, and many with me, tend to trust the experts who, independent of each other, came to the conclusion that the injuries on the victims were due to animal predation. Others don't, and might be able to back that up with various other statements or attempts to discredit aforementioned experts. If we go back to what this thread was originally about, Terry Hobbs status as a viable suspect, the same situation is evident. It's just the way it is.
 
Sure, false memories do exist and I don't think anyone here meant to say that they, categorically, don't. For every study asserting a certain conclusion, there's likely one to counter it or at least nuance it.

As with a lot of statements in this case, be it testimony from experts, alibi statements or whatever, it essentially boils down to who and what we find credible - i.e. it's highly subjective even when backed up by science etc. E.g. I, and many with me, tend to trust the experts who, independent of each other, came to the conclusion that the injuries on the victims were due to animal predation. Others don't, and might be able to back that up with various other statements or attempts to discredit aforementioned experts. If we go back to what this thread was originally about, Terry Hobbs status as a viable suspect, the same situation is evident. It's just the way it is.

Agree -- for every expert the prosecution has, the defense has just as many; and vice-versa. This can be attributed to almost everything these days: from what to eat, to false memories, to how to sit at work, to what will and won't kill you -- there is always a completely contradictory viewpoint. This case is no different. I guess the main difference here, that many never really bring up, is that only one side (the defense) has been "playing." The prosecution/state has never really had any need to put in any effort to combat the defense's findings because 1) the WM3 were found guilty in the original trials and 2) they are still, technically, guilty. Even if the state is still investigating this case (which is very debatable, as we've heard conflicting answers regarding such), they're not going to make any of their contradictory findings public -- because they simply have no need to do so.
 
I don't think the State is investigating, either. They consider the case closed. It's one reason they accepted the Alford pleas. However, I believe that there is still an ongoing investigation, but it's being conducted by the former defense team. Ellington told them to give him anything they find. He said that in the Q & A at the Clinton School after the Alford pleas. My guess is that whoever is investigating will make their findings public when those findings are complete and can result in the prosecution and conviction of the real killer or killers. MOO
 
Yes, because even the "truth", or facts, are subjective. So what some consider fact, other might consider opinion. I'm getting way too postmodern here...
Anyhow, when weighing expert testimony in this case there are some pretty straight forward examples and some more complicated ones. Comparing the credibility of Dale Griffis to, say, John Douglas should be an easy task (mail order PhD v. renowned FBI expert). Reported sightings are much more complicated.

IMO, the state is definitely not investigating at the moment nor have they been for a very, very long time. Didn't Ellington pretty much admit he hadn't gone through the case files? They got their convictions, and as far as they're concerned, that's all that matters. At this point in time, I'm not sure anyone is investigating. I would like to think the defense teams are still somewhat active, and that there's something going on behind the scenes so to speak, but I doubt it. :/
 
I also don't think the defense (even) is truly investigating this case anymore. I would hope they are, and I would hope the state would be also, but it just seems like this case is only growing colder.

Ellington stated at the presser after the Alford pleas were accepted that, to him, since they pled guilty (technically), that the state has no logical reason to keep this case open anymore -- this is the one major flaw of the Alford plea (which I have never blamed the WM3 for taking). However, when PH and JMB had a hearing about their right to view the victims' belongings, the state (at that hearing) said they were not allowed to view the items (clothes, bikes) because "this is still an ongoing investigation." Did the state simply say that (without actually meaning it) because they don't want anyone to see the evidence (for whatever reason)? Or have they re-opened the investigation after the Ellington presser? Or was Ellington lying at the presser when the Alford pleas were accepted? I think any one is possible. But again, I don't think anyone (defense included) is investigating this case anymore.
 
IMO, the State (in the person of Ellington) was saying that, although they have no intention to reopen an investigation (which, of course, must happen before justice can be complete), they will consider any evidence presented to them. If it is sufficient, then they might reopen. Again, IMO, the former defense team is now collecting and verifying evidence and will present it when it is (in their opinion) sufficient to achieve the desired result - the reopening of the case by the State, which is the ultimate goal. Since Ellington left the door open, so to speak, they have to preserve the evidence. MOO

Maybe a "legal" mind can weigh in on this, but, IMO, that would require the following to happen in the order listed:

1. The State must believe that the evidence presented is sufficient to warrant reopening the case - sufficient, IOW, for the prosecution and conviction of a different suspect.

2. The verdicts against Damien, Jason and Jessie must be set aside.

3. The case would, then, be reopened and a fresh (and more thorough, I hope) investigation conducted.
 
Yeah, I agree. I well and truly hope they still do, I really really do, but it would seem like they're not. I suppose there hasn't really been any urgency since the WM3 got out. I'm not even sure of the general status of the former defense teams.

In an ideal world, the state, and prosecutors in general, would be interested in justice. However, it seems to be the case a lot of the time that they really only care about a conviction. Whether it's correct or not, and whether or not the sentence is fair for that matter, seems less relevant. It's just heartbreaking to see it happen over and over again. :(
So yeah, the state is hardly investigating anything at the moment, and they probably just didn't want to let anyone view the evidence for whatever reason.

Hopefully we're wrong though. :)
 
This next post was becoming rather extensive so I decided to split it up into three parts. The first two parts are only related to this thread due to the fact that this subject was discussed here, the third puts the thread back on rails. Splitting it up also has the advantage that people who are only interested in one part can skip the others, people who aren't interested in any of it can advance to go and collect 200$ (but you all know that anyway).
 
#1 False Memory Syndrome

I don't want to bore you all too much with this, but because of my involvement with people who were and are targeted by the propaganda that has risen in recent years, concerning "false memory" , I would like to clarify some things before I move back onto the subject of this thread.

As Graznik says, no one said there is no such thing as "false memory", but it has always had the status of experimental psychology. It is nothing new, it has always been highly debatable, and the resurrection of "false memory" by the FMSF, was for something else but not scientific reasons.

I was looking for literature that was not "intoxicated" by the ongoings from recent years, and not lobbied by the FSMF network. I came across a book that was newish and from a source that is otherwise reliable

OXFORD UNIVERSITY PRESS The Science of False Memory
C. J. BRAINERD V. F. REYNA 2005

Imagine how surprised I was to read this comment on the book afterwards.

Can we judge a book by its cover?

On the cover of "The Science of False Memory" is a photograph of two satyrs: "Janus Bust of Silenus and a Satyr," a 2nd century A.D. stone sculpture.

In Greek mythology, Silenus was an aged satyr, perpetually stupefied with drink. He was the oldest satyr and the companion, adviser, and tutor of Dionysus. Dionysus is often portrayed as a delicate, effeminate youth.

Satyrs are described as roguish but faint-hearted folk, subversive and dangerous, yet shy and cowardly. As Dionysian creatures they are lovers of wine, women, and men, and they are instinctively ready for every physical pleasure. Child satyrs are sometimes depicted taking part in Bacchanalian celebrations.

With two satyrs on the cover, what is the book about? "In ancient Greece," say the authors, "sexual contacts between adults and children were not regarded as crimes." It was not until 1974 that the US Congress passed an act making such contacts a crime (p. 292).

The prosecution of these sexual contacts as criminal activities has shaped false memory research, the authors suggest (p. 291). This appears to be true.

False memory research recommends we look for suggestive questioning, suggestibility, therapists, books, support groups, movies, or even secondary gain as sources for child sex abuse allegations.

Is it possible that such allegations might ever be based upon actual sexual contact between adults and children? Perhaps the answer to this question is on the book's cover.

A freudian slip perhaps ? After reading p 291, I'm afraid not.

CR addressed the McMartin Day Care case in a post, CR I have not studied this case deeply, I have two very good books that take an extensive look at it, they are both in German by a lady called Martha Shalleck, I hope to be reading them soon. However, one of the authors of the book that I am now reading makes a short reference to the problematic, this is what he has to say:

Taken From:

Knowing, Not-Knowing and Sort-of-Knowing: Psychoanalysis and the Experience of Uncertainty
by Jean Petrucelli (Editor) Page 93

A related suggestion is that patients’ memories of abuse are not real but have been “implanted” in their minds by their therapists. These stances have often been presented by the false memory syndrome foundation (FMSF), implying that such a diagnostic “syndrome” involving suggestion and implantation of false traumatic memories, is recognized and used by the mental health profession. There has been a small but powerful group of academics, some connected with this group, whose writings, supportive of these themes, have been published in major journals. Of course, bad therapy, in which the therapist’s assumptions or beliefs may be stated as fact, do exist, for example, “You were abused by your father”, or “You were not abused by your father, but have simply mistaken your desires for their enactment”. It is also true that patients can be psychotic or vindictive toward their parents. However, I think that the people who have been abused and who have doubted their own experience as a result of the implantation of these ideas into the media far outnumber the victims of poor therapists who wrongly infer abuse. All of the foregoing contributes to shame that is experienced by both patients and their therapists.
 
#2 False Memory

There are a number of theories that handle memory, dual process (Gist, and Verbatim memory), FFT (Fuzzy trace theory) and "False Memory. I, on the whole, don't agree with any theories that portion the brain / psyche, because any thought procedure produces so much synaptic, and chemical / hormonal activity across the whole of the brain.

http://www.human-memory.net/brain_neurons.html

The historical roots of "false memory" can be followed back to Alfred Binet (1857–1911), Jean Charcot (1825-1893), Jean Piaget (1896–1980), and Frederic C. Bartlett (1886–1969). The first theories were based on the studies of animal magnetism by Franz Mesmer around 1773.

"False memory" seems like a relict of a, metaphorically speaking, time when the psychological world was still flat.

Experiments involving the theory of "false memory" only go to prove human imperfection IMO. I think this is something we all know and knew, or did you remember to buy everything when you last went shopping? Our imperfection is displayed almost daily. Instead of diagnosing someone with "false memory", you could just say their recollection was not correct, they made a mistake, they're making up a story, or they are darn right lying. Who can tell the difference anyway?

It gets a bit more interesting on the subject of memory manipulation, or implanting a "false memory". It does happen quite often, that before a witness is questioned, they hear rumours from other people or the media, and they can implant things into their stories of an event. A black car might become dark blue, a green coat become grey. This however depends on the level of awareness present in the addressed situation, and the amount of detail that is registered. Only the amount of information that was stored, can be later recovered. This is where eye witnesses should be looked at very closely.

If a person was paying attention, or was very aware for a certain reason, they will be sure of what they have seen, and there is not much room for manipulation. The amount of awareness will decide the size of the file that's saved into memory, very much like scanning a photo into your computer. As a traumatic experience generally raises the level of awareness, the size of the file increases, however the situation can become so traumatic that the person dissociates, the higher developed regions of the brain appear inactive, survival modus is activated.

The retrieval of this information becomes difficult because of "defense" procedures, and actual theories propose that these files are scattered in memory as if they were on a highly fragmented disk drive, and often have no chronology. Later, fragments of the experience, force themselves into consciousness and can cause very problematic flashbacks.

On the whole, what's memorised is the result of a combination of awareness, interpretation, sensual capabilities, association and the many physical attributes of time and space and mass. Memory is as individual as we are as humans. If a memory is good, time does not play a great role, the information is there, if recollection is not disturbed by individual defense procedures (dissociative amnesia) or mental deficiency, chances are good of restoring this information. The quality of the information is related to the required details, lets say in a criminal investigation for instance.
 
#3 False Memory in connection with this case and the Ballard statements.

There is a classic example of implanting "false memory" in this case, and that is the confessions of JM. Do we want to call JM's confessions "false memory"? After a while he did comment that he started believing he had done it. Children between five and eight are very prone to manipulation. JM's IQ and state of mind were comparable to a child of this age group. We can argue whether this was the implantation of a "false memory" but I think coerced is just as good a description.

As far as the Ballard affidavits go, I don't see how and why they should develop a "false memory". Their declaration that TH did see the boys on that day, does not make him guilty, it just proves that he was lying, or "not telling the truth" as some prefer to say.

The girls were 13, and 11 at the time, an age where their memory is still excited by learning, and has become well organised.

The sightings took place over a period of time, the girls knew the boys by name, had seen the boys before, they knew TH, they knew AH, they knew the environment. They had an association to time and space. The statements consisted of major details not minor details, no exact point in time, no details of clothing, just reference points to other events. If there was more detail saved in memory, who knows ?

The argument that this sighting took place on a Wednesday before the 5th is diminished by the following statements IMO:

Pam Hobbs Dimension Interview:

Interviewer: Who was -- who was Stevie better friends with, Christopher or Michael?

Pam Hobbs: Michael.

Interviewer: Yeah. They were -- were they like best friends, the two of them?

Pam Hobbs: Yeah.

Interviewer: They were -- they did everything together. But they hung out with Chris quite a bit?

Pam Hobbs: Uh, Chris and Stevie were in the same [group]. So, I would say probably, uh, about a month before the murder was when Chris really started hanging around them both.

snipped

Michael spent more time -- Chris, uh, he was just a little shy little boy then. Started coming over right before they died.

John Mark Byers first statement:

Mark- well this is going to be kind of funny sounding. He told us like on sunday or monday night before that wednesday. He was getting ready to go to bed and he told us, his mom and I, he said, I got a girlfriend. And I said, well, who's your girlfriend. He said amanda. I said, well, how old is amanda. He said 4. I said, aww, I said who is amanda. He said Stevie's little sister.

Ridge- you know so that...

Mark- and then I didn't...well that came out in talking to Terry. Terry had told me something about once Christopher was down there and wanted to say goodbye to her. And he said well you can say goodbye to her now, you know. And he said, he told, that Christopher told Stevie that he wanted to give her a little kiss goodbye. That's why he wanted her to come outside, you know. Cause that's the only girlfriend, just kids stuff.

Ryan Clarkes statement: 5-12-93

"left skateboard in the street and got on the bike with Steve. States that he had not seen Chris with Steve before."

All of this tells me that the three of them had just started playing together, at the most one month before the murders, at the least maybe just a week before. Considering that the Ballard's went to church on Wednesdays only, it pretty much cuts down the possibility that this happened on a Wednesday before the 5th down to zero. The chance that "these three boys" were playing in the same spot, at the same time on a "different" Wednesday within this short period, is very improbable. The fact that JB also spoke to CB because RC was looking for him, strengthens the argument even more for the 5th.

In fact, next to the statement of Marty K. I see them as some of the most credible statements in this "investigation".

All in all, which sightings one thinks are credible is individual. That's it on "false memory", I won't de-rail this thread any more, at least not with this subject.
 
Thank you for some very solid posts, CL!

I've thought about the fact that the boys had really only just recently become friends, too. It does make it less likely that JCB had her wednesdays mixed up.
 
Hey CL, I skimmed over your long posts -- could you maybe just summarize what you're trying to say exactly? Because in your first post, you reiterate the position that "no one is saying there aren't false memories," but then go on to basically allude to the fact that false memories (the studies of) are pretty much B.S. (within the last decade). I'm still not sure why or how you determined they are b.s. within the last decade. The FMFS is far from the only outlet that has thoroughly examined the subject via multiple studies and concluded that the phenomenon is indeed real.

This whole argument sort of reminds me of how people don't believe in global warming, and pooh-pooh any and all scientific data that suggests that the phenomenon is indeed real, but I digress.
 
#3 False Memory in connection with this case and the Ballard statements.

There is a classic example of implanting "false memory" in this case, and that is the confessions of JM. Do we want to call JM's confessions "false memory"? After a while he did comment that he started believing he had done it. Children between five and eight are very prone to manipulation. JM's IQ and state of mind were comparable to a child of this age group. We can argue whether this was the implantation of a "false memory" but I think coerced is just as good a description.

As far as the Ballard affidavits go, I don't see how and why they should develop a "false memory". Their declaration that TH did see the boys on that day, does not make him guilty, it just proves that he was lying, or "not telling the truth" as some prefer to say.

The girls were 13, and 11 at the time, an age where their memory is still excited by learning, and has become well organised.

The sightings took place over a period of time, the girls knew the boys by name, had seen the boys before, they knew TH, they knew AH, they knew the environment. They had an association to time and space. The statements consisted of major details not minor details, no exact point in time, no details of clothing, just reference points to other events. If there was more detail saved in memory, who knows ?

The argument that this sighting took place on a Wednesday before the 5th is diminished by the following statements IMO:



John Mark Byers first statement:



Ryan Clarkes statement: 5-12-93



All of this tells me that the three of them had just started playing together, at the most one month before the murders, at the least maybe just a week before. Considering that the Ballard's went to church on Wednesdays only, it pretty much cuts down the possibility that this happened on a Wednesday before the 5th down to zero. The chance that "these three boys" were playing in the same spot, at the same time on a "different" Wednesday within this short period, is very improbable. The fact that JB also spoke to CB because RC was looking for him, strengthens the argument even more for the 5th.

In fact, next to the statement of Marty K. I see them as some of the most credible statements in this "investigation".

All in all, which sightings one thinks are credible is individual. That's it on "false memory", I won't de-rail this thread any more, at least not with this subject.

I don't consider JM's confession as a false memory at all and I would never call it such in the slightest. It's like you say, it was more of a coercion of a vulnerable and young individual -- there is a difference there. Only JM could tell you what was going on in his mind, but to me, it's quite possible that he was simply telling the cops what they wanted to hear simply so they'd let him go (a false assumption under his mind, but one that may have led to the false confession).

I think you're blurring the line grossly here between false confessions and false memories.

As far as JCB goes -- how or why would anyone develop a false memory (let alone JCB)? Your reasoning that they were 13 and 11 and that this would somehow prevent them from developing false memories is very anecdotal, much like the majority of your argument. Knowing the boys, etc. -- there is nothing to substantiate your claim that any of this would make a difference one way or another in preventing a false memory from occurring.

Her statement did contain "major" details, and they were details that were patently false. Ryan Clark never went to school the next day. That is a major detail.

If the boys only started playing together for a month (totally unsubstantiated, but I digress), that would leave a month for JCB to see the boys. How you define that as "zero" I'm not really sure. Personally, I feel like the boys knew each other for at least one year. This event happened in May (toward the end of the school year). Also, it's beyond obvious that MM and CB knew each other well (they lived across from each other); and that CB was comfortable enough to go to SB's house by himself and even hang out with SB's little sister, without SB or MM. All of this, to me, suggests that the boys knew each other for longer than just one month and definitely longer than just one week, as you suppose. CB developed a crush on SB's sister; had been seen by TH and PH at their house before (the "say goodbye to her in here" incident).
 
Let me say this one more time. JCB didn't say she saw RC in school but at school. Those two little words are very important. I have explained previously how this could have occurred - and it's not "jumping through hoops" in any way. It's a valid and plausible explanation of what could have occurred.

"The next day, I saw Ryan at school and he was very upset. Ryan told me that the boys had never come home and that the police had found the bodies of the Stevie, Michael and Christopher. Ryan was so upset. When he told me that the boys had been killed, I said something like, "What, I just saw your brother last night playing in my backyard!" Ryan was crying and said to me, "Why didn't you tell my brother to come home?" That really upset me and I told Ryan, "I did tell him to come home!" They let out school and everyone went home soon after that."

BBM (source)

IMO, there should be something a bit more substantial to support a total disregard for the JCB statement other than this one supposed discrepancy (that is not really a discrepancy, IMO). Again, IMO, the only truly valid possibility for disbelieving the statement is if it were a "false" or faulty memory. Finally, IMO, for all of the reasons so carefully and thoroughly outlined in CL's excellent posts (thank you), JCB was not experiencing a faulty memory but a true and accurate recollection of the events of the evening of May 5, 1993, which, as CL stated, makes her statement one of the most (if not the most) credible accounts of the evening. The other supposed sightings of the little boys could, IMO, have been off by a few minutes much more likely than JCB's which was linked, as I have stated previously, to an habitual, ongoing event and further burned into memory as it was the last time JCB saw her friend's brother alive.
 
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