Found Deceased WA - Cheryl DeBoer, 54, Mountlake Terrace, 8 February 2016 #7

[margarita25]

Well I think we are here on these boards because we are NOT active, trained LE/Investigators. And we are forming conclusions and theories to fit what evidence we have. I do like to think that posters on WS are unbiased and do their best to stay objective in examining an ongoing case.

This is a good point. While I stated upstream that I am biased, maybe I shouldn't be. But it's hard not to let experiences from other cases carryover, especially one that is personal, because many times that contributes to insight in other cases, etc. But you are right, I think. Thanks for this. But again, the culvert just screams dump site to me.

 

[otto]

No evidence of homicidal violence, no marks on the body other than the self inflicted cuts. No sighting of another person (or even CD).

How could it possibly be murder? If someone drown or suffocated her, she would have put up something of a fight, skin under fingernails, she would have ripped the bag. Someone would have had to held the bag VERY tight to cut off airflow, and a thin bag she could just rip open. If someone had held her head underwater, she would have fought back, there would be marks on her from the struggle.

There were no signs of homicidal violence in the bathtub drowning death of Michele McNeill - so the ME determined that her death was a result of heart defect. It was murder. One of Drew Peterson's wives was murdered in a bathtub and the ME ruled something other than murder. After his last wife vanished, the drowned wife was exhumed and it was determined to be murder.

Drowning deaths seem to often be mistaken for something other than murder.

 

[Treelights]

If I tell someone that I'm going to be late, and considerately suggest that they go without me, but that person instead says "how much time to you need", that means that person is considering waiting for me. If I say it will take too long, go without me, that's the end of it. If I say I need 10 minutes, that means I'm thankful that they will consider waiting and will take the 10 minutes and ... and then the discussion stopped. There needed to be one more comment to wrap up the discussion, but there wasn't.

The phone was powered off right after the last text, so did Cheryl NOT want to speak/text again? Or someone else powered down that phone?

If Cheryl wanted to text or speak with the car pooler, it would make sense to Not power down that phone….

That's where the ambiguity is as well.

IMOO.

 

[margarita25]

There were no signs of homicidal violence in the bathtub drowning death of Michele McNeill - so the ME determined that her death was a result of heart defect. It was murder. One of Drew Peterson's wives was murdered in a bathtub and the ME ruled something other than murder. After his last wife vanished, the drowned wife was exhumed and it was determined to be murder.

Drowning deaths seem to often be mistaken for something other than murder.

Was juuuuuust about to mention the same thing about DP.

Eta: we also know how many other drowning deaths we have seen here, bodies in rivers, that are ruled undetermined and suicide, but we are still suspicious. For example, the bodies of all the young ladies found in the New Brunswick area, iirc.

 

[Dushi]

When this investigation started, LE stated it was suspicious and they were looking at homicide. I assume it was investigated as such.
When we know what they know, perhaps our opinions will change (whatever our opinions may be)
As of Friday, this was still an ongoing investigation. Perhaps that has changed over the weekend?
Last i read, COD was determined, MOD was not , or at least not officially.
If this has changed, could someone point me in that direction? Playing catch up.

 

[Treelights]

Cheryl DeBoer

​

Police ask help in finding missing Mountlake Terrace woman
Mountlake Terrace - Mountlake Terrace police are asking for the public's help in locating a missing woman.
Cheryl DeBoer, 54, was supposed to meet a friend at the Mountlake Terrace Park and Ride lot and carpool to work Monday morning. She texted her friend around 7 a.m. saying that she would catch a bus instead; she has not been seen or heard from since. Her vehicle was located parked in the 23400 block of 58th Avenue SW in Mountlake Terrace.
http://www.king5.com/story/news/loc...ing-missing-mountlake-terrace-woman/80068942/

Body found in Mountlake Terrace identified as missing woman
http://www.king5.com/story/news/loc...police-rule-womans-death-suspicious/80417266/
The Snohomish County Medical Examiner on Tuesday announced that they have identified a body found in Mountlake Terrace as 53-year-old Cheryl DeBoer. The cause and manner of death are pending further investigation, the ME's office said. Mountlake Terrace Police had said there is no reason to believe the public is in danger following the discovery of the body.

Medical examiner: Body found is missing Mountlake Terrace woman
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...e-police-return-to-site-where-body-was-found/
The family remains cooperative with the investigation, he said, adding DeBoer’s husband took a polygraph test late last week and police have eliminated him as a person of interest.

Celebrating Cheryl DeBoer

Verified Insiders:
Stryker57
Lavaland

Thread #1 Thread #2 Thread #3 Thread #4 Thread #5 Thread #6

This post does list Lavaland and Stryker57 as verified insiders.
I think it does take the moderators time to post them in the correct categories elsewhere listed on WS.

IMOO.

 

[Treelights]

When this investigation started, LE stated it was suspicious and they were looking at homicide. I assume it was investigated as such.
When we know what they know, perhaps our opinions will change (whatever our opinions may be)
As of Friday, this was still an ongoing investigation. Perhaps that has changed over the weekend?
Last i read, COD was determined, MOD was not , or at least not officially.
If this has changed, could someone point me in that direction? Playing catch up.

"March 21, 2016
The Snohomish County Medical Examiner’s Office has completed the examination of Cheryl D. DeBoer, 53, of Mountlake Terrace, WA, who was found deceased near 244th Street SW and Cedar Way in Mountlake Terrace on February 14, 2016. The cause of death is asphyxia due to plastic bag over head and freshwater drowning. The manner of death is Undetermined."

http://snohomishcountywa.gov/ArchiveCenter/ViewFile/Item/4431

This is what I could currently find.

 

[margarita25]

One thing to note also is that not all ME's are going to interpret things the same way, or perform the same examinations the exact same way. It's like getting a second opinion from a doctor. I have seen in other cases where another ME sees things differently, and/or discovers problems with the initial ME. For example, a second ME in the case of a murder victim in Bermuda noticed that the original ME had washed the body before doing some of the tests, potentially destroying trace evidence.

I'm just speaking in general terms, ftr.

 

[ANZAC]

Cheryl's son was verified long before Anzac. I believe lavaland was verified, but isn't on the list. I just think it takes time to catch up. Lots going on all over WS. As I said, I remember when he was verified and it may have been before you started posting. You can pm Beach if you want clarity.

Just to be clear, I'm verified as being in SAR (which in Washington is volunteer and managed by the sheriff's offices).
But I have nothing to do with this case, and no inside knowledge of this case.

I do know they are updating the verified list to include my username.

 

[kammiemc]

when a case is solved the manner of death will fall into a statistics bucket. either homicide, accident, natural causes, suicide, or the dreaded undetermined. until then I keep an open mind and let the evidence speak.

statistics cannot solve this case nor can it be considered evidence. it is just a distraction to our discussion, imo.

IMO, I didn't think the stats were distracting. I thought they were informative and relevant given that people are debating suicide vs homicide. (Hotly at that--I hope the attack on Anzac will end.)

 

[ANZAC]

I agree. While appreciating Anzac's verified status and learn from his expertise as SAR, I also keep in mind that he is not an LE or a ME. He is also working with the same set of information that has been given to us. I take his opinions as that just that, his opinions.

I try to be clear on my opinions vs things I know with more certainty like "the process works like this based on my experience", or anything relating to WA law etc. We do work very closely with LE and the ME (though far more with LE because we are sheriff's office volunteers) - we probably work on 20 homicide/suicide cases a year. I know several people who have worked on the CD case but I have not asked them about it, I'm just using it as "mental exercise".

While I am not commissioned LE, let's also be honest they DO NOT receive specific training to become a detective, typically. They learn police procedures as part of becoming a cop, but being a detective is another facet of putting their street experience and instincts to good use, and it is also seen as another thing to rotate through and learn. So, the good detectives are the ones with a lot of experience who put that to use. It is not rocket science, but it is a difficult, exhausting job, and they work very long hours. There are rarely flashes of insight or great theories. Thoroughness is probably the greatest asset, they typically always want to run down every lead and avenue until it is exhausted. If it is even barely credible, they risk the defense saying they gave something a pocket veto instead of checking it out. I'm privileged to work with several awesome detectives.

Someone in another post said "I've never seen anything that could so easily be either homicide or suicide". We see those ALL the time. The investigations take a long time. If there is another place to post (if someone wants the mental exercise) I could post vague outlines and see how people guess the outcome.

All that said, this thread really needs a pathologist and a psychologist...! (for the theories and open questions)

 

[ANZAC]

One thing to note also is that not all ME's are going to interpret things the same way, or perform the same examinations the exact same way. It's like getting a second opinion from a doctor. I have seen in other cases where another ME sees things differently, and/or discovers problems with the initial ME. For example, a second ME in the case of a murder victim in Bermuda noticed that the original ME had washed the body before doing some of the tests, potentially destroying trace evidence.

I'm just speaking in general terms, ftr.

The medical examiners are generally pretty good here. They also have outside consultants like forensic anthropologists they bring in if needed.
Many of the jurisdictions have more than one ME doctor available too. In my county, there is a small team of them (2-4 I think).

 

[ANZAC]

There were no signs of homicidal violence in the bathtub drowning death of Michele McNeill - so the ME determined that her death was a result of heart defect. It was murder. One of Drew Peterson's wives was murdered in a bathtub and the ME ruled something other than murder. After his last wife vanished, the drowned wife was exhumed and it was determined to be murder.

Drowning deaths seem to often be mistaken for something other than murder.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion -- the investigation into CD's death is still open.

 

[jennapuppy]

Personally, I can't understand why someone would choose to end their life this way. I also can't understand why someone would choose to commit murder this way. We don't know of a possible trigger for suicide or a possible motive for murder and perhaps we never will, but I do appreciate reading any and all theories and points of view, as long as they're made respectfully. I just hope that Cheryl's family gets the answers they need. That's all that really matters. IMO

 

[kammiemc]

Personally, I can't understand why someone would choose to end their life this way. I also can't understand why someone would choose to commit murder this way. We don't know of a possible trigger for suicide or a possible motive for murder and perhaps we never will, but I do appreciate reading any and all theories and points of view, as long as they're made respectfully. I just hope that Cheryl's family gets the answers they need. That's all that really matters. IMO

Ditto!

 

[ANZAC]

I'm curious if you have ever seen a suicide as complex, with as many puzzling pieces as this? If so, can you give us a general idea about what made it complex and puzzling? Apologies if you've answered this question before. And thanks. I value your input even if I don't always agree.

Oh gosh yes. Hard to keep the reply concise and on topic though. So, lack of a body does leave things up in the air. Weird behavior from family members. (i.e. not weird from grief) Environmental changes can make a scene look more or less like a murder. (evidence can move around, predation of bones/remains) People interfere with crime scenes (eg rob the body). Let's also throw accidental and natural causes in the mix. If we find a body at the bottom of a cliff, we don't know if they slipped, jumped, were pushed, or had a heart attack and fell. Not knowing how the subject got to the death scene. Add to that, weird evidence on scene, and weird causes of death.

I don't want to get in trouble with the mods - but I have 3-4 examples of cases like this, probably more if I think about it.

 

[jadejazzkayla]

IMO, I didn't think the stats were distracting. I thought they were informative and relevant given that people are debating suicide vs homicide. (Hotly at that--I hope the attack on Anzac will end.)

unless/until we are told the manner of death by law enforcement it will remain undetermined. and as I don't know what an anzac is -I don't understand your comment.

 

[ANZAC]

When this investigation started, LE stated it was suspicious and they were looking at homicide. I assume it was investigated as such.

What they said was it was being "investigated as a homicide". Which is kind of true, any suspicious death (not certified by a doctor) in WA must be investigated. This doesn't mean they had anything pointing to homicide, it just means they were and are keeping an open mind, and will collect/preserve evidence, get warrants etc. This is standard procedure, and another common phrase they use talking to the media.

 

[ANZAC]

unless/until we are told the manner of death by law enforcement it will remain undetermined. and as I don't know what an anzac is -I don't understand your comment.

That's me. And in Washington, the police legally cannot make that determination, the ME does it based on input from the police investigation and of course the forensics/pathology etc. Sometimes the police will say "the medical examiner has ruled this to be a suicide/homicide" etc.

 

[margarita25]

The bizarre circumstances surrounding CD's death don't neatly fit into any category. This case doesn't remind me of any other homicide or suicide that I'm aware of, and right now there's no "smoking gun" that points definitively to either. IMO

Me, imo, fwiw, this doesn't remind me of any suicides that I am aware of, but it does remind me of plenty of other homicides, jmo.

Eta: excluding the mass suicides in San Diego (glasses folded neatly, plastic bags, except they consumed vodka, drugs iirc).