Found Deceased WA - Cheryl DeBoer, 54, Mountlake Terrace, 8 February 2016 #7

[kammiemc]

unless/until we are told the manner of death by law enforcement it will remain undetermined. and as I don't know what an anzac is -I don't understand your comment.

Yes, the stats clearly do not yet include CD's manner of death. They only provide a context of the likelihood/prevalence of certain manners of death. Certainly doesn't mean CD's manner of death (once/if determined) will fall into any category. But I don't share the criticism that it is distracting when posters share stats.

The Anzac comment was a general comment, not directed at you. Anzac is a poster on this thread who has riled up some people who are convinced of homicide because he/she has the opinion, based on SAR experience, that CD's manner of death is likely suicide.

 

[ANZAC]

You have presented yourself on here as an "LE professional", repeatedly referring to your "experience", shouldn't you be getting verified?

If not then your opinion is just that, your opinion. What do you have vested for this to be a suicide?

Per the mods, I am verified as search and rescue. In Washington SAR are volunteers managed but the sheriffs offices and legally are allowed to assist with criminal cases, evidence searches etc. (but we typically don't go near bad guys) We work closely with major crimes detectives, we work on cold cases, but mostly it is as part of a bigger process, which I get to view. Mostly (when not doing wilderness search and rescue) we're looking for evidence . I go to about 10-20 a year, they are a mix of death scenes, and looking for murder weapon (guns, bloody knives, victim's effects, human remains). We also get more heavily involved in serial killer cases, the ones that dump bodies outdoors.

We get crime scene training, and a lot of experience. We do sometimes interview people. I've even helped with electronic evidence collection when our techs have been busy. Where I live it is a very collaborative process where the detectives share everything about the case with us, to give us more context and to come up with our own ideas for how we search. Sometimes we come back to them with questions they go and run down. But of course they're the ones doing the arresting and making the decisions about where the case is going, we just find things to help with the case.

I don't have anything vested one way or the other. I started thinking this was 50/50 homicide suicide (the day she went missing). Once they found the body I am at like 90/10 towards suicide, until we see actual evidence of another person being near her that day.

 

[misshissy]

I try to be clear on my opinions vs things I know with more certainty like "the process works like this based on my experience", or anything relating to WA law etc. We do work very closely with LE and the ME (though far more with LE because we are sheriff's office volunteers) - we probably work on 20 homicide/suicide cases a year. I know several people who have worked on the CD case but I have not asked them about it, I'm just using it as "mental exercise".

While I am not commissioned LE, let's also be honest they DO NOT receive specific training to become a detective, typically. They learn police procedures as part of becoming a cop, but being a detective is another facet of putting their street experience and instincts to good use, and it is also seen as another thing to rotate through and learn. So, the good detectives are the ones with a lot of experience who put that to use. It is not rocket science, but it is a difficult, exhausting job, and they work very long hours. There are rarely flashes of insight or great theories. Thoroughness is probably the greatest asset, they typically always want to run down every lead and avenue until it is exhausted. If it is even barely credible, they risk the defense saying they gave something a pocket veto instead of checking it out. I'm privileged to work with several awesome detectives.

Someone in another post said "I've never seen anything that could so easily be either homicide or suicide". We see those ALL the time. The investigations take a long time. If there is another place to post (if someone wants the mental exercise) I could post vague outlines and see how people guess the outcome.

All that said, this thread really needs a pathologist and a psychologist...! (for the theories and open questions)

I would like to personally thank you for all of your valuable input. You have always been very careful to state when something is just opinion and when it is based on fact. You have extensive hands on experience that the vast majority of us do not have. While you can learn a lot by reading 100 threads on-line, that does not compare to actually working in the field (20 cases/year - wow). Your information has been very educational and you are a great asset to WS. Please take negative comments with a grain of salt. Many of us are quite grateful. I personally find it very refreshing to read your posts because you are honest about what you know to be true and what you believe to be true based on extensive actual experience. I have sensed a distinct lack of bias. Thanks.

 

[Mistree]

If I tell someone that I'm going to be late, and considerately suggest that they go without me, but that person instead says "how much time to you need", that means that person is considering waiting for me. If I say it will take too long, go without me, that's the end of it. If I say I need 10 minutes, that means I'm thankful that they will consider waiting and will take the 10 minutes and ... and then the discussion stopped. There needed to be one more comment to wrap up the discussion, but there wasn't.

Agreed. That is why my hinky meter is bursting.
That whole 28 minutes of voluntarily waiting when no indication was given that it was necessary.
I cant expand further because as we all know, no one has been named a person of interest.
JMO

 

[Stripehaven]

The phone was powered off right after the last text, so did Cheryl NOT want to speak/text again? Or someone else powered down that phone?

If Cheryl wanted to text or speak with the car pooler, it would make sense to Not power down that phone….

That's where the ambiguity is as well.

IMOO.

I will say up front that I am on the fence. But IF this was a suicide, I can imagine it coming about like this:

Hypothetically, let's say CD was battling some kind of depression. She sounds like a very strong, capable, and kind woman - the type of person who might feel she should be able to cope on her own, and also not trouble her loved ones. Speaking from some experience with depression, I know it can occur even when life seems perfectly rosy. I am happily married with a loving family. But I have had times where I just wanted to crawl in a hole and be left alone for about a week. And it makes you feel guilty and confused because nothing is really wrong. It is also exhausting. So I know this is possible. And in such a state, the least little thing going wrong can just be way too much. Example: the cat pees on the carpet. You clean it up, right? But if you are depressed, it can literally seem like too much to handle, and you fall apart. I am not exaggerating at all. I have been there.

Continuing my speculation: Imagine that CD was having bouts of similar despair, and worse. She may have been muscling through her days through sheer will power and perhaps sometimes feeling like she couldn't go on. Another Monday rolls around. She heads for work with the familiar sense of dread, and life being a burden, that depression can cause. She realizes she forgot her badge and it's like the last straw at that moment.

Maybe she genuinely thought about going back to get it (hence the text exchange) but then it all just seemed too much. So she powered down the phone to think, and be left alone to her thoughts. She struggled mentally for who knows how long, and then somehow decided today was the day. Maybe she had been carrying the blade around "just in case" - to tell herself she had a way out if she needed it.

Maybe then she tried test cuts and decided that wasn't what she wanted to do. Then she cast about for options and made do with what she happened to have available. She may have walked and thought some more, at first heading toward her home (based on the most likely route to the culvert), but then ultimately choosing another road.

I admit I still find the culvert a sad and puzzling choice, if it was a choice. But I can clearly imagine the state of mind and the accompanying mental struggles that could have led to someone taking their life with so many contradictions along the way.

 

[ANZAC]

Yes, the stats clearly do not yet include CD's manner of death. They only provide a context of the likelihood/prevalence of certain manners of death. Certainly doesn't mean CD's manner of death (once/if determined) will fall into any category. But I don't share the criticism that it is distracting when posters share stats.

Sometimes statistics can explain things, or give an indication where you have no evidence, but evidence and facts should always trump.

 

[ANZAC]

I would like to personally thank you for all of your valuable input. You have always been very careful to state when something is just opinion and when it is based on fact. You have extensive hands on experience that the vast majority of us do not have. While you can learn a lot by reading 100 threads on-line, that does not compare to actually working in the field (20 cases/year - wow). Your information has been very educational and you are a great asset to WS. Please take negative comments with a grain of salt. Many of us are quite grateful. I personally find it very refreshing to read your posts because you are honest about what you know to be true and what you believe to be true based on extensive actual experience. I have sensed a distinct lack of bias. Thanks.

You're welcome. My second mission I learned a lot about keeping an open mind. We'd got called about a missing person out in the woods near a hot spring. We stopped an oncoming car leaving the area as we were heading in (midnight, middle of nowhere) and asked if they'd seen the person or their car. They hadn't and drove off. Then my team leader swore ... he said "we should have got their license plate, what if this is a homicide and they were the murderers?"

 

[jennapuppy]

I will say up front that I am on the fence. But IF this was a suicide, I can imagine it coming about like this:

Hypothetically, let's say CD was battling some kind of depression. She sounds like a very strong, capable, and kind woman - the type of person who might feel she should be able to cope on her own, and also not trouble her loved ones. Speaking from some experience with depression, I know it can occur even when life seems perfectly rosy. I am happily married with a loving family. But I have had times where I just wanted to crawl in a hole and be left alone for about a week. And it makes you feel guilty and confused because nothing is really wrong. It is also exhausting. So I know this is possible. And in such a state, the least little thing going wrong can just be way too much. Example: the cat pees on the carpet. You clean it up, right? But if you are depressed, it can literally seem like too much to handle, and you fall apart. I am not exaggerating at all. I have been there.

Continuing my speculation: Imagine that CD was having bouts of similar despair, and worse. She may have been muscling through her days through sheer will power and perhaps sometimes feeling like she couldn't go on. Another Monday rolls around. She heads for work with the familiar sense of dread, and life being a burden, that depression can cause. She realizes she forgot her badge and it's like the last straw at that moment.

Maybe she genuinely thought about going back to get it (hence the text exchange) but then it all just seemed too much. So she powered down the phone to think, and be left alone to her thoughts. She struggled mentally for who knows how long, and then somehow decided today was the day. Maybe she had been carrying the blade around "just in case" - to tell herself she had a way out if she needed it.

Maybe then she tried test cuts and decided that wasn't what she wanted to do. Then she cast about for options and made do with what she happened to have available. She may have walked and thought some more, at first heading toward her home (based on the most likely route to the culvert), but then ultimately choosing another road.

I admit I still find the culvert a sad and puzzling choice, if it was a choice. But I can clearly imagine the state of mind and the accompanying mental struggles that could have led to someone taking their life with so many contradictions along the way.

I think you've been reading my mind. This is exactly what I've been thinking regarding a possible suicide.

 

[kammiemc]

Sometimes statistics can explain things, or give an indication where you have no evidence, but evidence and facts should always trump.

Totally agree! I think that's why some people are are sharing stats*--there is seemingly not enough evidence yet (that we know of) to clearly rule CD's death suicide or homicide. Must be excruciating for her family. The only thing worse would be if her body was not found.

*I am not pushing stats, I just don't feel critical of those who share them.

 

[ANZAC]

Me, imo, fwiw, this doesn't remind me of any suicides that I am aware of, but it does remind me of plenty of other homicides, jmo.

Suicides tend to not get media coverage unless they are someone prominent, or someone who was missing for a while. But even then, it depends on the news cycle. I worked a very confusing drawn out case (right near my house!) that one of the detectives said "this is like a Columbo episode", which tells you how convoluted it was right there. So we're each informed by our own biases and experiences, what we see in the media, what we see personally (in my case) or read about. That's not a bad thing, as long as we also keep open minds.

 

[margarita25]

Suicides tend to not get media coverage unless they are someone prominent, or someone who was missing for a while. But even then, it depends on the news cycle. I worked a very confusing drawn out case (right near my house!) that one of the detectives said "this is like a Columbo episode", which tells you how convoluted it was right there. So we're each informed by our own biases and experiences, what we see in the media, what we see personally (in my case) or read about. That's not a bad thing, as long as also keep open minds.

Indeed. I just don't recall any plastic bag/culvert suicide cases here on WS, but I've learned there is always a first time for everything here. Just when you think you've seen it all...

 

[Stripehaven]

I think you've been reading my mind. This is exactly what I've been thinking regarding a possible suicide.

Thanking your post.

 

[DanceCard]

I will say up front that I am on the fence. But IF this was a suicide, I can imagine it coming about like this:

Hypothetically, let's say CD was battling some kind of depression. She sounds like a very strong, capable, and kind woman - the type of person who might feel she should be able to cope on her own, and also not trouble her loved ones. Speaking from some experience with depression, I know it can occur even when life seems perfectly rosy. I am happily married with a loving family. But I have had times where I just wanted to crawl in a hole and be left alone for about a week. And it makes you feel guilty and confused because nothing is really wrong. It is also exhausting. So I know this is possible. And in such a state, the least little thing going wrong can just be way too much. Example: the cat pees on the carpet. You clean it up, right? But if you are depressed, it can literally seem like too much to handle, and you fall apart. I am not exaggerating at all. I have been there.

Continuing my speculation: Imagine that CD was having bouts of similar despair, and worse. She may have been muscling through her days through sheer will power and perhaps sometimes feeling like she couldn't go on. Another Monday rolls around. She heads for work with the familiar sense of dread, and life being a burden, that depression can cause. She realizes she forgot her badge and it's like the last straw at that moment.

Maybe she genuinely thought about going back to get it (hence the text exchange) but then it all just seemed too much. So she powered down the phone to think, and be left alone to her thoughts. She struggled mentally for who knows how long, and then somehow decided today was the day. Maybe she had been carrying the blade around "just in case" - to tell herself she had a way out if she needed it.

Maybe then she tried test cuts and decided that wasn't what she wanted to do. Then she cast about for options and made do with what she happened to have available. She may have walked and thought some more, at first heading toward her home (based on the most likely route to the culvert), but then ultimately choosing another road.

I admit I still find the culvert a sad and puzzling choice, if it was a choice. But I can clearly imagine the state of mind and the accompanying mental struggles that could have led to someone taking their life with so many contradictions along the way.

I'm also on the fence. But this is very much how I think it may have come about too, if this was suicide.

 

[TeaTime]

Agreed. That is why my hinky meter is bursting.
That whole 28 minutes of voluntarily waiting when no indication was given that it was necessary.
I cant expand further because as we all know, no one has been named a person of interest.
JMO

LE has checked out the car pool driver's story but waiting 28 minutes after getting the 'go without me' message seems odd.

 

[Hap]

I would like to personally thank you for all of your valuable input. You have always been very careful to state when something is just opinion and when it is based on fact. You have extensive hands on experience that the vast majority of us do not have. While you can learn a lot by reading 100 threads on-line, that does not compare to actually working in the field (20 cases/year - wow). Your information has been very educational and you are a great asset to WS. Please take negative comments with a grain of salt. Many of us are quite grateful. I personally find it very refreshing to read your posts because you are honest about what you know to be true and what you believe to be true based on extensive actual experience. I have sensed a distinct lack of bias. Thanks.

^^ THIS. I agree. So very grateful to Anzac and other professionals who join the discussions here. Thank you, Anzac.

 

[brandi]

LE has checked out the car pool driver's story but waiting 28 minutes after getting the 'go without me' message seems odd.

One point to that previouslydiscussed was needing an extra body for the carpool lane at that time of day is worth waiting extra time for(I can confirm that to be a true observation being Seattle traffic is 5th worst in the nation)

 

[Stripehaven]

I'm also on the fence. But this is very much how I think it may have come about too, if this was suicide.

My phone needs a thanks button.

 

[Lilibet]

OT for locals in the Seattle/Tacoma area: The linked thread is about Adam Powell who is missing from foster care in Tacoma. He is 17, with mental health issues and a Mom who has had an ongoing struggle with the state to get him help. Her latest post is #24. She could use some help. He may go to day/night shelters if anyone is able to take fliers around or just keep on the watch for him. It's a sad story. Thanks so much!

ETA: More info in Mom's post #26.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...attle-28-January-2016&p=12449764#post12449764

 

[Beesknees]

I try to be clear on my opinions vs things I know with more certainty like "the process works like this based on my experience", or anything relating to WA law etc. We do work very closely with LE and the ME (though far more with LE because we are sheriff's office volunteers) - we probably work on 20 homicide/suicide cases a year. I know several people who have worked on the CD case but I have not asked them about it, I'm just using it as "mental exercise".

While I am not commissioned LE, let's also be honest they DO NOT receive specific training to become a detective, typically. They learn police procedures as part of becoming a cop, but being a detective is another facet of putting their street experience and instincts to good use, and it is also seen as another thing to rotate through and learn. So, the good detectives are the ones with a lot of experience who put that to use. It is not rocket science, but it is a difficult, exhausting job, and they work very long hours. There are rarely flashes of insight or great theories. Thoroughness is probably the greatest asset, they typically always want to run down every lead and avenue until it is exhausted. If it is even barely credible, they risk the defense saying they gave something a pocket veto instead of checking it out. I'm privileged to work with several awesome detectives.

Someone in another post said "I've never seen anything that could so easily be either homicide or suicide". We see those ALL the time. The investigations take a long time. If there is another place to post (if someone wants the mental exercise) I could post vague outlines and see how people guess the outcome.

All that said, this thread really needs a pathologist and a psychologist...! (for the theories and open questions)

Good post.

I think this thread also needs Sherlock Holmes, Poirot, Miss Marples, Dick Tracy, Ellery Queen, Dupond&Dupond (lol) altogether!

My inner feeling tells me Cheryl was killed by someone she knew

 

[Terrace12]

Perhaps the car pool driver thought it was odd that she had not heard back from Cheryl. Maybe it just wasn't like Cheryl to turn her phone off. I know with my friends and family I know their routines. I thought Cheryl was car pooling with this person for a few years so they would know better then anyone. I am sure it wasnt the first time either was running late. IMO

Sorry this was a reply to the person who found it odd the car pool driver waited. I cant find the post sorry!