WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #3

[hominid]

Mr...45

If you'd like I can get weather info together so it'll be organized to put it into the simulator easily when you're ready for it. I can have it for SEATAC, Toledo and PDX. I can interpolate to the times at which you would be at each place. Cloud tops is not available, but we could estimate midway up to the next layer base and I think the flight must have been above the clouds while at 10,000'.

 

[MrShutter45]

Mr...45

If you'd like I can get weather info together so it'll be organized to put it into the simulator easily when you're ready for it. I can have it for SEATAC, Toledo and PDX. I can interpolate to the times at which you would be at each place. Cloud tops is not available, but we could estimate midway up to the next layer base and I think the flight must have been above the clouds while at 10,000'.

Yes, what ever we can get in order to be as close as we can to that day with the weather is a plus! I want to get as close to real time as possible.

cloud cover
temp
barometric pressure
dewpoint
ceiling
rain amount
wind
etc etc

I will post the weather stations I can manipulate on the simulator

Thanks H

 

[MrShutter45]

these are the stations I can adjust around the flight path.

Seattle (seatac)
Point Robinson Coast Guard Light station
McCord AFB
Grey AFB
Chehaslis Centralia
Toledo Winlock
Longview
Portland (PDX)

 

[georger]

Georger, agreed. Got a little carried away with all of these wacky codes and now I lost my Playboy mag too. Must be part of that Cooper Curse.
Tom's remark, "worthless tidbits," shows me that Larry Carr had his CSG in line. Great way to run an investigation when you control the cards and have a pre-set agenda. Figured Tom wouldn't have fallen for that old trick. But they do. Carr's transfer got him out of the muddle, and out of bureau lore. Looks like he'll be doing retirement the old-fashioned way.

Let's get er done, before "you-know-who" shows up.

Thanks and appreciated! Lets get 'er done.

I wonder if Tomw asnt telling the whole story; surely there was discussion
with Larry that is not being reported. But I agree with Tom, the letters
are a morass. Maybe something will pop up on some one's radar
concerning the letters. It wouldnt cost much to look for dna on the backs
of the stamps.

 

[georger]

I don't let something like that run me off, I was trying to see what the intentions of the poster was and seem to of got my answer by there last post, thanks Hominid and Georger for the kind words!


Since I can't find a good free desktop recorder at this point, I am making a video that highlights the software I am using. should be up by the end of the day :rocker:

Great work as usual! :rocker: and thanks for your kind words too.

 

[MrShutter45]

upon looking at the maps on Sluggo's site, am I correct to understand that they skewed off V23 once they past Toledo/Maylay intersection and came in around Merwin on a South westerly approach? then getting back on v23 to Battleground, I see some zig zagging going on that is pretty tricky in the sky VS looking on a map, this area is not big at all once in the air.

when you are in the air the space is very confined between Battleground and the Columbia, like trying to run around in a closet :waitasec:

I finally figured out how to deploy the aft stairs and can now open them in flight, complete with lights on the stairs :rocker:

 

[hominid]

upon looking at the maps on Sluggo's site, am I correct to understand that they skewed off V23 once they past Toledo/Maylay intersection and came in around Merwin on a South westerly approach? then getting back on v23 to Battleground, I see some zig zagging going on that is pretty tricky in the sky VS looking on a map, this area is not big at all once in the air.

....

I finally figured out how to deploy the aft stairs and can now open them in flight, complete with lights on the stairs :rocker:

They were off to the west early-on, heading directly for Toledo and Toledo airport when they should have been heading for the intersection. Changed to eastward at or near Toledo airport.

Crossed over the V23 CL about 3nm SSE of the intersection and went progressively to the east of the CL to the point marked "2005" over the south fork miles east of Ostrander. From this point the flight paralleled the V23 CL about 2nm to the east of the CL until the "2009" point about 1nm S of 46°N.

The flight turned a bit west toward the V23 CL and got to it at about the "2012" point, where the flight turned a bit to the east and paralleled the V23 CL until it passed about 1.4nm east of the Portland (now Battleground) VORTAC.

Getting close is good enough, especially at the main turns. You could cut across the insides of the turns. The flightpath plot has a precision of ±.5 min of latitude and longitude, which means about ±.35nm for east-west position.

About the airstair: Deploying it shouldn't affect the flying much unless you can push them down into the airstream farther than their natural fall point.

The weather: I'm getting it together. There's no data for any but SEATAC and PDX. We have 8pm data for Toledo from the av. weather reports Carr gave us. Could use the same thing for Kelso-Longview. Also, one of those reports included a weather alert section that indicates that the rain cell tops in the western 40 percent of Washington and Oregon was expected to be at 8000 feet, so that would be good for the tops of the clouds.

 

[MrShutter45]

They were off to the west early-on, heading directly for Toledo and Toledo airport when they should have been heading for the intersection. Changed to eastward at or near Toledo airport.

Crossed over the V23 CL about 3nm SSE of the intersection and went progressively to the east of the CL to the point marked "2005" over the south fork miles east of Ostrander. From this point the flight paralleled the V23 CL about 2nm to the east of the CL until the "2009" point about 1nm S of 46°N.

The flight turned a bit west toward the V23 CL and got to it at about the "2012" point, where the flight turned a bit to the east and paralleled the V23 CL until it passed about 1.4nm east of the Portland (now Battleground) VORTAC.

Getting close is good enough, especially at the main turns. You could cut across the insides of the turns. The flightpath plot has a precision of ±.5 min of latitude and longitude, which means about ±.35nm for east-west position.

About the airstair: Deploying it shouldn't affect the flying much unless you can push them down into the airstream farther than their natural fall point.

The weather: I'm getting it together. There's no data for any but SEATAC and PDX. We have 8pm data for Toledo from the av. weather reports Carr gave us. Could use the same thing for Kelso-Longview. Also, one of those reports included a weather alert section that indicates that the rain cell tops in the western 40 percent of Washington and Oregon was expected to be at 8000 feet, so that would be good for the tops of the clouds.

No rush on the data, I'm still learning all of the controls etc etc, the stairs open in the fully extended position, I don't think much happens but until I get the controls set the way I need them for better control of what I am doing I can't tell, really need a co-pilot :floorlaugh:

the first part is pretty easy with them following V23 to Toledo area, I haven't flown much past that point (only test flying...playing) but it is not easy to go back and forth between Battleground and let's say Route 5 without any given flight plan, very small area in the sky.

Having the flaps down, gear and stairs flying at low speeds makes it for a challenge no doubt. still learning how these guys did it, it's not easy at all :banghead:

 

[hominid]

No rush on the data, I'm still learning all of the controls etc etc, the stairs open in the fully extended position, I don't think much happens but until I get the controls set the way I need them for better control of what I am doing I can't tell, really need a co-pilot :floorlaugh:

the first part is pretty easy with them following V23 to Toledo area, I haven't flown much past that point (only test flying...playing) but it is not easy to go back and forth between Battleground and let's say Route 5 without any given flight plan, very small area in the sky.

Having the flaps down, gear and stairs flying at low speeds makes it for a challenge no doubt. still learning how these guys did it, it's not easy at all.

I'd be surprised if the sim would truly account for the tail pitch-up and drag from the stair being down. I don't think quatitative data is available for it, except probably at Boeing. [edit: probably the same for having the gear down]

The transcript of comm has some from 305 to the effect that they had to make slow, flat turns.

Let me know if you need the temp and pressure to be in any particular units.

 

[MrShutter45]

I'd be surprised if the sim would truly account for the tail pitch-up and drag from the stair being down. I don't think quatitative data is available for it, except probably at Boeing. [edit: probably the same for having the gear down]

The transcript of comm has some from 305 to the effect that they had to make slow, flat turns.

Let me know if you need the temp and pressure to be in any particular units.

How many different sets of transcripts are online? I got mine off of Sluggo's site and still can't find anything about 30 degr flaps?

 

[MrShutter45]

Believe it or not, the stairs depressurized the plane when I activate them, I have to figure out how to depressurize the plane, the same happens when I open the side door, but not a cargo door.

also flew a straight line from Merwin Dam to PDX and it took 6 minutes and 45 seconds at a airspeed of about 180-185 at 10,000, I flew instrumentation only because I zoomed in on the gauges while flying.

 

[MrShutter45]

Well, you can't pressurize the plane with a cargo door open:

http://www.fss.aero/accident-reports/look.php?report_key=1147

The airstairs are outside of the pressure vessel but there is a door in the aft bulkhead to get to them, otherwise they wouldn't be useful.

A couple of photos in this thread show what it's like when open in flight:

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/2489893/

Taking the plane up again, I was hoping the cargo area was not pressurized...Bzzz wrong, let's see what happens again.

Samething happened, nothing on the cabin gauge on the cargo door, when I open the aft or side door, the gauge drops fast.

here is the door in question.... http://s1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee380/dave767/?action=view&current=door-1.jpg

 

[georger]

How many different sets of transcripts are online? I got mine off of Sluggo's site and still can't find anything about 30 degr flaps?

Not sure. Havent checked in years. Plus everyone seems to call them something differently and Im not sure whats on Sluggos site now. Not much help am I! Theres the PI flight coms, NWA flight coms Transcript ....... gues thats two. What transcript(s) did you have in mind?

 

[georger]

They were off to the west early-on, heading directly for Toledo and Toledo airport when they should have been heading for the intersection. Changed to eastward at or near Toledo airport.

Crossed over the V23 CL about 3nm SSE of the intersection and went progressively to the east of the CL to the point marked "2005" over the south fork miles east of Ostrander. From this point the flight paralleled the V23 CL about 2nm to the east of the CL until the "2009" point about 1nm S of 46°N.

The flight turned a bit west toward the V23 CL and got to it at about the "2012" point, where the flight turned a bit to the east and paralleled the V23 CL until it passed about 1.4nm east of the Portland (now Battleground) VORTAC.

Getting close is good enough, especially at the main turns. You could cut across the insides of the turns. The flightpath plot has a precision of ±.5 min of latitude and longitude, which means about ±.35nm for east-west position.

About the airstair: Deploying it shouldn't affect the flying much unless you can push them down into the airstream farther than their natural fall point.

The weather: I'm getting it together. There's no data for any but SEATAC and PDX. We have 8pm data for Toledo from the av. weather reports Carr gave us. Could use the same thing for Kelso-Longview. Also, one of those reports included a weather alert section that indicates that the rain cell tops in the western 40 percent of Washington and Oregon was expected to be at 8000 feet, so that would be good for the tops of the clouds.

Im going to save this for future reference. Whose script are you following,
if you are?

 

[MrShutter45]

Im going to save this for future reference. Whose script are you following,
if you are?

No script as of yet, I'm just trying to find all of the accurate data I can. just noticed that was not for me to answer

It also appears the cargo doors are not always pressurized.


The cargo sections of planes may not always be pressurized, which means that cargo doors can come open during flight. Since people aren't usually in the cargo bay, the risk of this occurrence is minimal, unless a cargo door malfunctions, as happened in 1989 on a United Airlines flight to Hawaii. Specialized aircraft such as planes used for skydiving obviously remain unpressurized so that the doors of the aircraft can be opened, allowing people to jump out.

 

[hominid]

How many different sets of transcripts are online? I got mine off of Sluggo's site and still can't find anything about 30 degr flaps?

The 30° is not in a transcript. It is in the incident report provided by NWA to the FBI on the following day. It is the document R99 calls "FBI notes." I found it. Sluggo calls it something like "additional crew notes." Just a bit below the other transcript under "other evidence." Some of it can't be trusted because NWA lumped together events and assigned the groups different times than when they were logged in the transcript. Most of it is just reproduction of parts of the comm transcripts.

 

[hominid]

.... Whose script are you following,
if you are?

I definitely follow no script. I have no idea what you mean, Georger. And, is it re. the flight path with respect to the V23 centerline? Or something else that is in the post?

 

[hominid]

The 30° is not in a transcript. It is in the incident report provided by NWA to the FBI on the following day. It is the document R99 calls "FBI notes." I found it. Sluggo calls it something like "additional crew notes." Just a bit below the other transcript under "other evidence." Some of it can't be trusted because NWA lumped together events and assigned the groups different times than when they were logged in the transcript. Most of it is just reproduction of parts of the comm transcripts.

The NWA incident report

 

[MrShutter45]

The NWA incident report

Thanks! fills in some of the gaps, I still don't understand why they went to 30 degrees after being told 15?

 

[georger]

I definitely follow no script. I have no idea what you mean, Georger. And, is it re. the flight path with respect to the V23 centerline? Or something else that is in the post?

Maybe 'script' was the wrong word. So choices are: (a) FBI FP map, which R2 and current
Seattle office endorses, (b) NWA search map, (c) some path east of V23, (d) Thomas FP
way east of V23 which comes in over Troutdale (did not happen according to R2 and the
airport manager atTroutdale!), (e) Tom Kaye FP (whatever that is), (f) somebody else's
flight path, (g) path west side of V23 as in, example: 'straight line between Toledo and
some position in midline in the Columbia west of PDX...'.

That's what I meant by script. :what: