WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #3

[KaaBoom]

I just finished reading some of the transcripts from the plane. From the beginning, he seemed to talk about having those stairs down and was asking for parachutes? If he really wanted them to fly him to Mexico City, why have the stairs down? He obviously always intended to jump before he got to Mexico City. I can see no other explanation for the stairs. Would make more sense for him to want to jump in an area that he was familiar with. I think he knew they had to fly over Portland area no matter what. I think he also knew they would need to refuel. They aren't exactly sure when he jumped. I also wonder why he had an unused parachute. Was there someone else on that plane with him that chickened out or did another person on the plane with him deplane with the passengers when the plane refueled? Until then, all of the stewardesses were kept away from the back of the plane. A partner could have planned to remain on the plane when the passengers got off and then chickened out and got off as well. I think there has to be someone else out there that knew what was going on.

I agree, he planned to jump. I think he was just trying to buy as much time as possible. If the plane had continued on to Phoenix, or into Mexico, he would have had more time, before they knew he was gone. But he must have figured that by the time the plane got to Reno, he would have enough time to be long gone. So he agreed to Reno. If he let the plane land in Portland, they would have known immediately that he was gone.

I think the speculation I have seen, is that he wanted more parachutes, because he thought there would be less chance that they would tamper with the parachute. He was letting them think that somebody might be jumping with him.

 

[KaaBoom]

My understanding is that there are defined routes that commercial aircraft use between airports. In mountainous areas there may be multiple routes to accommodate different cruising altitudes. Someone who was very familiar with these routes would know what route the aircraft would follow if they were given a destination and a maximum cruising altitude. I think DB wanted the flight to go over the area north of Vancouver Wa because it presented an optimal drop site. It was reasonably flat (mostly farm land or pasture with little human presence but plenty of access roads. I suspect he knew the area well and he had some escape transportation arranged.

The tricky part is that DB would be jumping at night and that particular night it was overcast. He was jumping blind. The only way he would know when to jump would be to first determine how many minutes it would take the aircraft to get up to requested speed on course in the anticipated flight path then he would have to determine the exact number of minutes it would take to reach where he wanted to jump. He would have to leave the craft at the exact minute.

This would take planning and faith that the pilot would follow his instructions. Any serious deviation or miscalculation on his part and he would fail and likely die. It suggests nerve on his part ( or perhaps desperation). It also suggest that he was very familiar with airline procedures. I think the guy survived, took the money and made a clean getaway.

I don't think he could have used minutes to determine the jump location. Even if he knew the exact speed the plane was traveling, which he didn't. Because he was not in the cockpit. If he had jumped even one minute late or early he would have been five miles off of his target location. But it would be worse than that. Add to that not knowing the exact speed of the plane, and if the pilot was flying just slightly faster than the requested speed, he wouldn't be anywhere near his location. He would have been lucky to get within 50 miles of his target location, if he did that.

That's why, the only way I can think, that he could possibly have known when to jump is when he saw the lights of Portland out the window.

 

[kemo]

I don't think he could have used minutes to determine the jump location. Even if he knew the exact speed the plane was traveling, which he didn't. Because he was not in the cockpit. If he had jumped even one minute late or early he would have been five miles off of his target location. But it would be worse than that. Add to that not knowing the exact speed of the plane, and if the pilot was flying just slightly faster than the requested speed, he wouldn't be anywhere near his location. He would have been lucky to get within 50 miles of his target location, if he did that.

That's why, the only way I can think, that he could possibly have known when to jump is when he saw the lights of Portland out the window.

At the time BD jumped, it was night with dense cloud cover. He couldn't see anything. Portland was 25 miles to the south. He requested the pilot fly at the minimum speed possible that would keep the aircraft from stalling. The absolute minimum speed was assumed to be 100 knots per hour 115 mph/185 kmph. DB could assume he was traveling a little faster than this. This would work out to about 2 miles a minute.

The desirable land for a drop zone was the area between the Lewis River and the built up zone of Vancouver Wa. This is an strip about 20 miles along the flight path.

The distance from SeaTac to the Lewis River is about 130 miles. If DB timed his jump so that he would be at the Lewis River if the pilot held his speed to the minimum 120 mph, then even if the pilot averaged 140 mph, he would still be safely in the desired drop zone.

I have no idea how safe DB was in believing that the pilot would follow his instructions, but from what I can tell, the pilot was going about 125 mph at the probable time he jumped.

 

[Owutatangledweb]

Thanks. That's pretty much what I thought. That they were negotiating with him, where to refuel.

I don't think it made much difference to him though. I think he was already planning to jump in the Portland area. He just didn't want them to know that.

I agree, he always intended to jump in that area and was intentionally misleading them.

 

[mrseeker]

Do you have a link for that information? Some of the reports I have read, say that the route was Cooper's idea. To me, it sounds like there was a lot of negotiations between Cooper and the crew over the exact route they would take. Either way Cooper was very familiar with the geography of the area. With his demands that they fly at 10,000 feets, I don't see how he could not have known that they would fly over Portland. There really wasn't any other good route the plane could have taken.

I cannot find the interview/website I found actual transcripts from crew to tower but I am still looking. Some websites claim DB gave the route as V-23 which is what they took. Some gloss over that. DB wanted them to set course SE to Mexico City, but I remembered something about the altitude and maybe I assumed mountains. But the pilot informed DB that they could only fly 1000 miles at 15 degrees flaps and at 10k...and tower suggested refueling at Reno then at either Phx or Yuma. DB agreed. he did not name a route or netociate a route. He agreed to refueling at reno. The point I was making is, he did not fully plan or care where he landed. If they had taken off and head SE he would have jumped NW or Yakima. I don;t think he cared as long as they were headed to a remote part of Washington St. I think he was desperate and seemed to know quite a bit about the 707 but should have already known that the plane could not fly to Mexico City in one leg. He didn't care because he wasn't ever going that far. I have also thought about the clip on tie. I was a kid then and of course at 10 I had a clip on tie, but most adults did not. Most tied their ties. So i googled it and was reminded of something. Clip on ties were often worn by people who for safety could not wear a regular tie, but a tie was required. Two professions that wore clip ons were police, and people who worked around mechanical equipment...I guess we could include security personnel. So maybe DB was a engineer, machinist or perhaps security at a boeing facility.

Here is a link that touches on the SE issue...i am still looking for my source from some time ago. http://historylink.org/File/1997 I will add it if I find it.

I think this is another site I looked at. it has lots of links though.
http://n467us.com/History of The NW Airlines Flight 305 Hijacking.htm

found the transcript I was looking for https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx4E4pqVrHVuVnJnOVV2VDlIbE0/view

shows DB did not pick reno or route.
site is it on is
http://website.thedbcooperforum.com/Flight-Path/

 

[KaaBoom]

At the time BD jumped, it was night with dense cloud cover. He couldn't see anything. Portland was 25 miles to the south. He requested the pilot fly at the minimum speed possible that would keep the aircraft from stalling. The absolute minimum speed was assumed to be 100 knots per hour 115 mph/185 kmph. DB could assume he was traveling a little faster than this. This would work out to about 2 miles a minute.

The desirable land for a drop zone was the area between the Lewis River and the built up zone of Vancouver Wa. This is an strip about 20 miles along the flight path.

The distance from SeaTac to the Lewis River is about 130 miles. If DB timed his jump so that he would be at the Lewis River if the pilot held his speed to the minimum 120 mph, then even if the pilot averaged 140 mph, he would still be safely in the desired drop zone.

I have no idea how safe DB was in believing that the pilot would follow his instructions, but from what I can tell, the pilot was going about 125 mph at the probable time he jumped.

Even if Portland was completely covered in clouds, like the aerial picture I posted above, the city lights would illuminate the clouds, and could be visible from 10,000 feet. Add to that any breaks in the clouds, and Portland could be easily identified from the air at night. Portland is a large city. It makes a lot of light at night.

Also I believe their average speed was about five miles per minute, not two miles. Which if he had used your calculation, just shows how far off his jump location would be. He had to have known that it would be impossible to determine his location that way.

Cooper had already demonstrated his geography skills, and his ability to keep track of where the plane was, to the flight crew.

 

[Owutatangledweb]

I cannot find the interview/website I found actual transcripts from crew to tower but I am still looking. Some websites claim DB gave the route as V-23 which is what they took. Some gloss over that. DB wanted them to set course SE to Mexico City, but I remembered something about the altitude and maybe I assumed mountains. But the pilot informed DB that they could only fly 1000 miles at 15 degrees flaps and at 10k...and tower suggested refueling at Reno then at either Phx or Yuma. DB agreed. he did not name a route or netociate a route. He agreed to refueling at reno. The point I was making is, he did not fully plan or care where he landed. If they had taken off and head SE he would have jumped NW or Yakima. I don;t think he cared as long as they were headed to a remote part of Washington St. I think he was desperate and seemed to know quite a bit about the 707 but should have already known that the plane could not fly to Mexico City in one leg. He didn't care because he wasn't ever going that far. I have also thought about the clip on tie. I was a kid then and of course at 10 I had a clip on tie, but most adults did not. Most tied their ties. So i googled it and was reminded of something. Clip on ties were often worn by people who for safety could not wear a regular tie, but a tie was required. Two professions that wore clip ons were police, and people who worked around mechanical equipment...I guess we could include security personnel. So maybe DB was a engineer, machinist or perhaps security at a boeing facility.

Here is a link that touches on the SE issue...i am still looking for my source from some time ago. http://historylink.org/File/1997 I will add it if I find it.

I think this is another site I looked at. it has lots of links though.
http://n467us.com/History of The NW Airlines Flight 305 Hijacking.htm

I don't think he cared where they refueled or where the route went beyond Portland because he intended to be long gone before Reno or Phoenix.

 

[Owutatangledweb]

Mrs. Seeker, the transcripts are in a link in Thread two or three. I'll see if I can find them again. I think they were posted by a user ID of Sluggo? Does that sound familiar?

Here you go:

http://n467us.com/Other Evidence.htm#Transcription_of_Communications

 

[mrseeker]

Mrs. Seeker, the transcripts are in a link in Thread two or three. I'll see if I can find them again. I think they were posted by a user ID of Sluggo? Does that sound familiar?

Here you go:

http://n467us.com/Other Evidence.htm#Transcription_of_Communications

yes one site that has it was sluggo. And I agree, he could care less about the destination. That was my point, really. He just wanted to drop in a remote area. if they could have flown SE as he first demanded, he would have landed near Yakima. Kind of makes me believe he was more desperate than mastermind.

 

[KaaBoom]

I cannot find the interview/website I found actual transcripts from crew to tower but I am still looking. Some websites claim DB gave the route as V-23 which is what they took. Some gloss over that. DB wanted them to set course SE to Mexico City, but I remembered something about the altitude and maybe I assumed mountains. But the pilot informed DB that they could only fly 1000 miles at 15 degrees flaps and at 10k...and tower suggested refueling at Reno then at either Phx or Yuma. DB agreed. he did not name a route or netociate a route. He agreed to refueling at reno. The point I was making is, he did not fully plan or care where he landed. If they had taken off and head SE he would have jumped NW or Yakima. I don;t think he cared as long as they were headed to a remote part of Washington St. I think he was desperate and seemed to know quite a bit about the 707 but should have already known that the plane could not fly to Mexico City in one leg. He didn't care because he wasn't ever going that far. I have also thought about the clip on tie. I was a kid then and of course at 10 I had a clip on tie, but most adults did not. Most tied their ties. So i googled it and was reminded of something. Clip on ties were often worn by people who for safety could not wear a regular tie, but a tie was required. Two professions that wore clip ons were police, and people who worked around mechanical equipment...I guess we could include security personnel. So maybe DB was a engineer, machinist or perhaps security at a boeing facility.

Here is a link that touches on the SE issue...i am still looking for my source from some time ago. http://historylink.org/File/1997 I will add it if I find it.

I think this is another site I looked at. it has lots of links though.
http://n467us.com/History of The NW Airlines Flight 305 Hijacking.htm

found the transcript I was looking for https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx4E4pqVrHVuVnJnOVV2VDlIbE0/view

shows DB did not pick reno or route.
site is it on is
http://website.thedbcooperforum.com/Flight-Path/

I believe you are getting it mixed up. From reading the FBI reports posted above, Cooper was the one who suggested Reno, and the crew quickly agreed. Because that was the only location that Cooper offered that was in their range. I believe Cooper was testing the crew when he offered Yuma as a stop. Yuma is right on the border. If the crew had agreed to that, Cooper would have demanded that they fly to Mexico. Since they would already be at the border.

Best as I can tell, the crew never discussed route V-23 with Cooper. V-23 is the standard low altitude route out of Seattle. I think both the crew and Cooper knew that would be the route. Flying southeast to Yakima was not an option. The mountains between Seattle and Yakima are over 14,000 feet. The crew would have obviously refused to fly the plane in that direction, at 10,000 feet altitude.

 

[mrseeker]

I believe you are getting it mixed up. From reading the FBI reports posted above, Cooper was the one who suggested Reno, and the crew quickly agreed. Because that was the only location that Cooper offered that was in their range. I believe Cooper was testing the crew when he offered Yuma as a stop. Yuma is right on the border. If the crew had agreed to that, Cooper would have demanded that they fly to Mexico. Since they would already be at the border.

Best as I can tell, the crew never discussed route V-23 with Cooper. V-23 is the standard low altitude route out of Seattle. I think both the crew and Cooper knew that would be the route. Flying southeast to Yakima was not an option. The mountains between Seattle and Yakima are over 14,000 feet. The crew would have obviously refused to fly the plane in that direction, at 10,000 feet altitude.

you need to read the transcripts. it is a myth that cooper suggested reno. the crew told him they must refuel. I am only relying on the record. you can only guess at what DB cooper "knew". He told them to fly SE to Mexico City. Non stop . That is what the records say. I am not confusing anything.

 

[KaaBoom]

Here is how Cooper knew the plane would fly over Portland. Look at this map. When Cooper dictated that the crew fly at 10,000 feet, he immediately ensured that the plane would fly over Portland. No other route would have been safe.

 

[KaaBoom]

I don't think he cared where they refueled or where the route went beyond Portland because he intended to be long gone before Reno or Phoenix.

He did care, in that he wanted it to be as far away as possible. So he would have time to escape, before they knew he was gone. Which is the reason he was trying to get the plane as close to Mexico as possible, and let them think, that was where he was trying to get to. He obviously planned to survive the jump, and didn't want to have police roadblocks set up before he could escape.

 

[mrseeker]

Here is how Cooper knew the plane would fly over Portland. Look at this map. When Cooper dictated that the crew fly at 10,000 feet, he immediately ensured that the plane would fly over Portland. No other route would have been safe.

You don't know what he knew. He said to fly SE to Mexico City non stop which was impossible. He added the flaps and altitude which made it even worse. The pilots passed on the information and were told you have to tell him its impossible without two refuelings. Then it was suggested Phx and the officials came back it would be better if it were reno then Phx. he agreed. then without consultation with DB the tower gave clearance for V23 south at 10k. You and I know it was dumb to say fly SE out of seattle at 10k but whether DB knew that or not is conjecture. the record suggest he had not thought of that or more likely could care less. He clearly wanted to jump out soon after take off, and it appears it did not matter if it was S or SE. to say otherwise you are solely relying on your own imagination. The record speaks for itself. He was not the expert everyone has claimed he was. He got lots of this wrong. I think part of what he got wrong was survivability.

 

[mrseeker]

He did care, in that he wanted it to be as far away as possible. So he would have time to escape, before they knew he was gone. Which is the reason he was trying to get the plane as close to Mexico as possible, and let them think, that was where he was trying to get to. He obviously planned to survive the jump, and didn't want to have police roadblocks set up before he could escape.

the flight to seattle was less than 20 dollars. He could have started this attempt in San Diego and would be right at the border. he always intended to jump out in the backcountry of Washington State, and I think he died there. He never wanted to get as close to mexico as possible. He could have turned off the transponder for one. Had the pilots go over the ocean and lower to 2000 ft and fly south for miles before turning inland. Lots of better moves here. He always wanted off that plane in a few minutes after take off, and planned to wing it from there, no pun intended.

 

[KaaBoom]

you need to read the transcripts. it is a myth that cooper suggested reno. the crew told him they must refuel. I am only relying on the record. you can only guess at what DB cooper "knew". He told them to fly SE to Mexico City. Non stop . That is what the records say. I am not confusing anything.

I have read it. You need to read it. From the FBI report.

After refueling was completed and take off appeared .
imminent, the crew called on the intercom and advised that
after checking with appropriate authorities, they had been
told that the fule load would not permit them to fly nonstop
to Mexico City, or anywhere in Mexico, in fact. They pointed
out that the range of fuel was such that they recommended
landing to refuel somewhere in the San Francisco, California
area. The hijacker countered with Phoenix, Arizona, as an
alternative landing for refueling. When the crew responded
in the negative due to the distance to Phoenix, Arizona, he
at that time stated the aircraft could make Yuma, Arizona,
or Reno, Nevada, and he preferred a landing in Reno, Nevada.
The crew called back and stated they would proceed to Reno,
Nevada.

FBI Report Page 31


Cooper proposed Reno, the crew agreed to it.

 

[KaaBoom]

You don't know what he knew. He said to fly SE to Mexico City non stop which was impossible. He added the flaps and altitude which made it even worse. The pilots passed on the information and were told you have to tell him its impossible without two refuelings. Then it was suggested Phx and the officials came back it would be better if it were reno then Phx. he agreed. then without consultation with DB the tower gave clearance for V23 south at 10k. You and I know it was dumb to say fly SE out of seattle at 10k but whether DB knew that or not is conjecture. the record suggest he had not thought of that or more likely could care less. He clearly wanted to jump out soon after take off, and it appears it did not matter if it was S or SE. to say otherwise you are solely relying on your own imagination. The record speaks for itself. He was not the expert everyone has claimed he was. He got lots of this wrong. I think part of what he got wrong was survivability.

Please give me a credible link to where Cooper said "fly SE to Mexico City". I don't believe he said that. It is certainly not in the official reports. Cooper was not dumb. He pulled off the perfect crime. Maybe the most perfect crime ever, except for the fact that he almost certainly did not survive it. Cooper knew the capabilities of the plane and he knew the geography of the area. He knew what he was doing.

 

[KaaBoom]

the flight to seattle was less than 20 dollars. He could have started this attempt in San Diego and would be right at the border. he always intended to jump out in the backcountry of Washington State, and I think he died there. He never wanted to get as close to mexico as possible. He could have turned off the transponder for one. Had the pilots go over the ocean and lower to 2000 ft and fly south for miles before turning inland. Lots of better moves here. He always wanted off that plane in a few minutes after take off, and planned to wing it from there, no pun intended.

He wanted to get off the plane, right where he got on it, in Portland. He ensured that, by demanding that the flight crew fly at 10,000 feet.

 

[mrseeker]

He wanted to get off the plane, right where he got on it, in Portland. He ensured that, by demanding that the flight crew fly at 10,000 feet.

He did not say fly towards portland, he said fly SE. It was not until they told him we have to refuel in Reno that he agreed to fly south. Believe what you want. He never said fly south as they eventually did. He was stupid in so many ways. He is dead. thats not a perfect crime. splat.

 

[mrseeker]

Please give me a credible link to where Cooper said "fly SE to Mexico City". I don't believe he said that. It is certainly not in the official reports. Cooper was not dumb. He pulled off the perfect crime. Maybe the most perfect crime ever, except for the fact that he almost certainly did not survive it. Cooper knew the capabilities of the plane and he knew the geography of the area. He knew what he was doing.

just read the transcripts or just google it. Wiki has that as well. Believe what you want. SPLAT!