WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #3

[scandi]

Welcome back in Scandi. Please question anything you wish and state your own ideas too.

Thanks Hominid, I'll have time tomoz to catch up. I don't know anything about the info you are discussing now.

One feeling I have is that the FBI might not have been extremely diligent in their investigation. Oh, I know they did their job, what is required. But I question their priority of the case, especially as time went on and it became so COLD. I could be way off on that too as they did read all of Left Coast's assembled info on the case.

 

[hominid]

I'm sure you have seen this, Carr shows how he thinks the handle was made.

ACTUALLY, no I had never seen this particular one. Good info as long as you ignore his opinion. The rest seems to be pretty much "just the facts."

 

[hominid]

One feeling I have is that the FBI might not have been extremely diligent in their investigation. Oh, I know they did their job, what is required. But I question their priority of the case, especially as time went on and it became so COLD. I could be way off on that too as they did read all of Left Coast's assembled info on the case.

I agree, and wouldn't blame them. They never had much to go on. And the guy didn't get a huge haul. I'm sure the FBI used up way more in what they did. About all they can afford is to hope that somebody comes forward and gives them the hijacker. Much of what was done they did by getting free help from others.

 

[georger]

WELCOME to you all Georger, Mr Shutter and Hominid. Hope I didn't miss anyone else who is new.

Your discussion is extremely interesting and I'm going to have to read every word you guys write here. lol


PS: I see you've been a member for awhile Georger. It has been way too long since I've read on this thread.



Remembering tonight how dedicated Left Coast was to solving this case and how fortunate we were that he stumbled on Websleuths and with his dear friend both joined us, giving their theory and all that info. Bless him.

I hope we can do it justice - we will try. A lot of water has gone under the bridge since this thread was started by some good people. It's nice to see you pop up here! Thanks.
G.

 

[MrShutter45]

Got my clip on tie to go along with my clip http://s1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee380/dave767/?action=view&current=myclip.jpg

also brought my Microsoft 2004 simulator from moth balls and downloaded the Northwest 727

 

[scandi]

I'm sure you have seen this, Carr shows how he thinks the handle was made.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5uiBupUsjc

Thanks for that MrShutter as I had never seen it either.

I am amazed this FBI agent thinks DB started tumbling the minute he left the stairs and tumbled all the way down till he hit the ground. I assume that meant splat on the ground as in death.

If that were the case don't you think there would have been some evidence found from an accident like this? If not soon after, in time? The plane was on a regular flight path so it would be easy to check, right?

Does anyone here know where that concrete pad circle is that Left Coast thought DB landed close by? Is that near where this agent shows the point on the map where DB jumped?

 

[MrShutter45]

Thanks for that MrShutter as I had never seen it either.

I am amazed this FBI agent thinks DB started tumbling the minute he left the stairs and tumbled all the way down till he hit the ground. I assume that meant splat on the ground as in death.

If that were the case don't you think there would have been some evidence found from an accident like this? If not soon after, in time? The plane was on a regular flight path so it would be easy to check, right?

Does anyone here know where that concrete pad circle is that Left Coast thought DB landed close by? Is that near where this agent shows the point on the map where DB jumped?

That is the first I have heard of any concrete pad??? The FBI and Jerry Thomas are heavy on the tumbling, McCoy popped right out :floorlaugh:

The FBI thinks he lost control the second he went out and never opened his chute

 

[hominid]

Got my clip on tie to go along with my clip

I didn't closely follow your discussion at the darkzone. Was there any kind of conclusion?

 

[MrShutter45]

I didn't closely follow your discussion at the darkzone. Was there any kind of conclusion?

the piece was made possibly by several companies and also sold with no markings on them what so ever, so, tracking down where the clip actually came from might be impossible at this point, I made a video about my findings

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5a_qSBqIYM

 

[hominid]

I am amazed this FBI agent thinks DB started tumbling the minute he left the stairs and tumbled all the way down till he hit the ground. I assume that meant splat on the ground as in death.

If that were the case don't you think there would have been some evidence found from an accident like this? If not soon after, in time? The plane was on a regular flight path so it would be easy to check, right?

The FBI really has no valid reason to think it. Some who have made similar dives with similar chutes disagree strongly. Even if he started tumbling, he would probably be OK just by pulling the cord. A lot about the case looks like the guy knew something about chuting. We've found from watching film of guys jumping out of 727s in SE asia that pulling the rip cord immediately out of the door works great. The FBI line has been the same since shortly after the hijacking. If they really believed it I suspect that they got it through talking to a very small number of people with sometimes peripheral connection to chuting (like loadmasters). With an FBI opinion and a dollar you can't even buy a cup of coffee except with a senior discount.

Does anyone here know where that concrete pad circle is that Left Coast thought DB landed close by? Is that near where this agent shows the point on the map where DB jumped?

Not familiar with the pad. Do you have a link to info about it?

The FBI doesn't actually know where he jumped. The path was plotted only to a precision of 1 minute of latitude and of longitude. And there is great ambiguity as to when he jumped and where that is along the plotted path. This results from three different factors. Examination of the chart reveals that a minute "got lost." Then the event (pressure "bump") that is thought to have coincided with the jump is either not mentioned in the publicly released communications transcript or is called something else ("oscillations"). And the time base for the transcript is apparently some amount off from the one for the position plot. If the FBI has any data from which to resolve the ambiguity, it appears that they must not recognize it.

 

[hominid]

the piece was made possibly by several companies and also sold with no markings on them what so ever, so, tracking down where the clip actually came from might be impossible at this point, I made a video about my findings

Good work even if it didn't lead to him. As far as we know, the clip has netted nothing for the FBI either, right? DNA and Kaye's work for the tie itself?

 

[MrShutter45]

Good work even if it didn't lead to him. As far as we know, the clip has netted nothing for the FBI either, right? DNA and Kaye's work for the tie itself?

Georger and myself was hoping maybe it could be linked to JcPenny's, but that didn't turn out either so I continued to dig in and try and find out what ever I could about the piece, seems to be a dead end but was fun to explore.

we have conflictions once again about the material found on the tie, perhaps Georger can tune us in better on this, way out of my field :truce:

I find it troubling that the FBI lost the cig butts, the only real clue to link someone, seems to have vanished around the time DNA was getting popular?

 

[hominid]

...., seems to be a dead end but was fun to explore.

I find it troubling that the FBI lost the cig butts, the only real clue to link someone, seems to have vanished around the time DNA was getting popular?

Diggin farther than others have could someday find something.

I think you just hit on an explanation for the butts. Someone "musta" taken them out to get DNA tests, then forgot......or some woman or janitor saw them laying there and...

 

[MrShutter45]

Diggin farther than others have could someday find something.

I think you just hit on an explanation for the butts. Someone "musta" taken them out to get DNA tests, then forgot......or some woman or janitor saw them laying there and...

who knows, couple years ago they almost threw out the original court records from the OK Corral, I'm sure they were in a plastic bag of some sort, probably laying around unnoticed in Reno :banghead:

I think it's time to release all of the evidence!!

 

[georger]

Thanks for that MrShutter as I had never seen it either.

I am amazed this FBI agent thinks DB started tumbling the minute he left the stairs and tumbled all the way down till he hit the ground. I assume that meant splat on the ground as in death.

If that were the case don't you think there would have been some evidence found from an accident like this? If not soon after, in time? The plane was on a regular flight path so it would be easy to check, right?

Does anyone here know where that concrete pad circle is that Left Coast thought DB landed close by? Is that near where this agent shows the point on the map where DB jumped?

Hi guys. After the hijacking the FBI (and others) received a number of
'expert opinions' from a number of sources including for example, members
of the Boeing skydive club. The bulk of opinion they received at the time
was that Cooper probably had not survived, for a number of reasons,
some reasons based on the personal experience and estimates of experts,
and some reasons purely hypothetical. Tumbling was one possibility
suggested. So in fairness, much of what RH and others said (for the
press) following the hijacking, was actually based on opinions the FBI had
been given by experts in various fields at the time, as opposed to being
spontaneous forumulations by Bureau members.

The FBI in Washington was highly dependent on expertise from outside
sources in this case. This happened again after Ingram found the money.

Scandi is referring to two former posters here, Left Coast & Right Coast,
who back in 2007-08 thought Teddy Mayfield was DB Cooper. Since
Mayfield lives in Washington and is an expert skydiver, LC/RC were looking
for a likely landing place from which Ted could have moved quickly to then
be calling RH personally, the same evening of the hijacking (about
10:00pm as I recall?) LC thought he had found a circular cement pad
which might fit the requirement, except that of course it would be
impossible to sight much less land on such a small target, from 10k feet in
the weather that night etc etc etc. The Ted Mayfield theory collapsed for
a number of reasons, after a lot of publicity.

This is the Myers & Dvorak I have referred to elsewhere.

 

[georger]

we have conflictions once again about the material found on the tie, perhaps Georger can tune us in better on this, way out of my field :truce:

[/quote]

The evidence on the tie is what it is - and some of it fits very nicely with
facts of the case, his smoking for one. That is a point of validation for the
tie and its evidence, that numerous particles and substances found on
the tie would corroborate the fact of Cooper's smoking and other events
we know happened. That is a good start, validation-wise.

Similarly, if the money found spent any time at Tina Bar it should shows
traits of that environment, specific traits, and it does. When evidence of
this kind tuirns up it is good to find a baseline established, which
corroborates the evidence being where it was found, or not.

From that baseline I think you have to take these matters at face value
until something proves inconsistent. I tend to believe the rest of the
materials found on the tie by Tom either relate to Cooper directly or to
the case itself, in some way. Tom's element wheel is a goldmine of
information, potentially, as seen from some perspective. It needs to be
taken seriously, in my opinion.

 

[MrShutter45]

does anyone know the time the plane took off and what runway, 34, 16?

 

[hominid]

does anyone know the time the plane took off and what runway, 34, 16?

I wasn't there. ;-)

The incident report NWA provided to the FBI said 2166z (7:36pm PST). A person or two have tried to come up with something different, but they used methods (backing up from later events and assuming time to get to altitude) only accurate enough to use for estimating.

The transcript of taped communications has them taking off on 16L (the one on the east side). They were given the option of using R or L, and they chose L because it was longer. It makes sense 16 would be used because both are longer than 34 AND using either of them (R or L) would put them right on V23 without having to make any turn. 305 stated an intention to taxi on 34, apparently to cross over and get to where they needed to be to take 16.

 

[MrShutter45]

I wasn't there. ;-)

The incident report NWA provided to the FBI said 2166z (7:36pm PST). A person or two have tried to come up with something different, but they used methods (backing up from later events and assuming time to get to altitude) only accurate enough to use for estimating.

The transcript of taped communications has them taking off on 16L (the one on the east side). They were given the option of using R or L, and they chose L because it was longer. It makes sense 16 would be used because both are longer than 34 AND using either of them (R or L) would put them right on V23 without having to make any turn. 305 stated an intention to taxi on 34, apparently to cross over and get to where they needed to be to take 16.

ok thanks, I will take 16 heading north, my simulator is pretty accurate, I was trying the flight earlier today but hit a mountain because I was only flying at 3800 and not looking out the window much:floorlaugh: trying to keep it steady with flaps and gear down is not easy, going to try again in a little while. I want to see how close I can get to matching the time frame,

34 r is at the sorth end of the runway, the other side is 16

 

[MrShutter45]

make that 16 L, heading south, I will mark the time at 7:36 and see were I am at approx 8:12, I can even mark the date and it should give the "real time weather"

I will have 36 minutes to get somewhere passing Ariel and close to being level with ridgefield? let's see.