WA WA - Kent, UnsFem 13-24, UP9930, SK G Ridgeway Victim "B20", Aug'03 - Tammie Liles

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Oh wow. I didnt realize that
Yeah.

I know Tammie is technically the last unidentified victim, but she really isn't the end of us or LE focussing on this offender. There are for sure more victims out there, including women and girls who he has confessed to killing, they just couldn't find their bodies where he told them to look. Most of the places he left victims are remote, rugged and inhospitable. He often buried victims, meaning they're harder to find than those he left on the surface. The harsh weather and soil pH degrades remains at a rapid rate. Law enforcement only found so many as they did because of the plea deal Ridgway made was conditional on full disclosure, including where he put his victims. If he'd pled not guilty, they likely would never have found a lot of the victims he led investigators to.

MOO
 
He literally moved her from one state to another. He moved her from King County, Washington to Tigard, Oregon. Some of her remains were found in each location. He admitted to moving remains of several victims from Washington to Tigard, Oregon. Tammie was one of them.


MOO
We can see three instances of him doing this. First, with Denise Bush and Shirley Sherrill, then with Tammie. I wonder if there's a Jane Doe out there who may be an already found Ridgway victim, just waiting to be ID'd. They missed a connection once, after all.
 
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Yeah.

I know Tammie is technically the last unidentified victim, but she really isn't the end of us or LE focussing on this offender. There are for sure more victims out there, including women and girls who he has confessed to killing, they just couldn't find their bodies where he told them to look. Most of the places he left victims are remote, rugged and inhospitable. He often buried victims, meaning they're harder to find than those he left on the surface. The harsh weather and soil pH degrades remains at a rapid rate. Law enforcement only found so many as they did because of the plea deal Ridgway made. If he'd pled not guilty, they likely would never have found a lot of the victims he led investigators to.

MOO
Just look at the list I made a few pages ago. There are so many more victims, and we are nowhere close to fully solving this case.
 
Would they even pursue the death penalty on a 74 year old man.

He would likely die of natural causes on death row, imo it would be a waste of money
Maybe, maybe not. I would at least like to see a conviction in Angela's case for the sake of closure for her family.

I also wonder if Angela is even considered a confirmed victim, like Tammie. They were found together after all.
 
I wonder if Ridgway moved the skulls of other victims, like Shirley and Denise. This case comes to mind. This is slightly off-topic though. I'll post to Jane Doe's thread.
 
Maybe, maybe not. I would at least like to see a conviction in Angela's case for the sake of closure for her family.

I also wonder if Angela is even considered a confirmed victim, like Tammie. They were found together after all.
In my research for my Reddit post on her ID, most articles list the two as having 'strongly suspected' ties to the Green River Killer. I don't know if that's changed since 2009.
 
I wonder if Ridgway moved the skulls of other victims, like Shirley and Denise. This case comes to mind. This is slightly off-topic though. I'll post to Jane Doe's thread.
Yes, Ridgway has mentioned that he moved skulls around. As I recall, I think he said he went on a fishing trip with his son and took along at least one skull to Oregon to confuse the police.
 
Yes, Ridgway has mentioned that he moved skulls around. As I recall, I think he said he went on a fishing trip with his son and took along at least one skull to Oregon to confuse the police.
If this Doe was killed by Ridgway, I think this is what he did here, but it failed as it took years to find the skull, assuming this woman died in '82, '83, or '84.

I can think of a few examples of him doing this, including with some of Tammie's bones, so there are likely more examples.

MOO
 
Tammie's page on the old GRK site (bbm):

Name: Tammie Liles
Age: 16
Date of Disappearance: June 9th, 1983
Location of Disappearance: Seattle, Washington/Pacific Highway South
Date Found: April 23rd, 1985
Location Found: Tualatin, Oregon

——————————————–

Tammie was born on May 9th, 1963. Little is known about her life. At some point, she got involved in prostitution.

On June 9th, 1983, Tammie was last seen either in Seattle, Washington, or on Pacific Highway South. Her remains were found nearly two years later. She was found south of Portland, Oregon. She was found near the remains of Angela Girdner. The two victims were also were found a mile away from Shirley Sherill and Denise Bush. Gary Ridgway admitted to killing Shirley and Denise. When asked about the murders of Tammie and Angela, Gary Ridgway would not confess to their murders.

Something important to note is that Angela Girdner, who was found near Tammie Liles, was not identified until 2009. At the time of Ridgway’s questioning, Angela’s remains were listed as a Jane Doe, and Gary Ridgway denied being responsible for her murder. After Angela was identified, it was revealed that she may have gone missing in Oregon. If this was the case, Gary Ridgway could possibly face the death penalty in Oregon, should he ever be charged with her murder. If Gary was responsible for the murder of Tammie Liles, he would have likely denied it to avoid implicating himself in the murder of Angela Girdner.

Despite Ridgway denying a connection, it appears that most investigators believe that Gary Ridgway is responsible for Tammie’s murder. The profile of Tammie is very similar to other victims that Gary Ridgway admitted to killing. In addition, Ann Rule’s book “Green River – Running Red” lists Tammie as a victim of the Green River Killer.
 
Tammie's page on the old GRK site (bbm):

Name: Tammie Liles
Age: 16
Date of Disappearance: June 9th, 1983
Location of Disappearance: Seattle, Washington/Pacific Highway South
Date Found: April 23rd, 1985
Location Found: Tualatin, Oregon

——————————————–

Tammie was born on May 9th, 1963. Little is known about her life. At some point, she got involved in prostitution.

On June 9th, 1983, Tammie was last seen either in Seattle, Washington, or on Pacific Highway South. Her remains were found nearly two years later. She was found south of Portland, Oregon. She was found near the remains of Angela Girdner. The two victims were also were found a mile away from Shirley Sherill and Denise Bush. Gary Ridgway admitted to killing Shirley and Denise. When asked about the murders of Tammie and Angela, Gary Ridgway would not confess to their murders.

Something important to note is that Angela Girdner, who was found near Tammie Liles, was not identified until 2009. At the time of Ridgway’s questioning, Angela’s remains were listed as a Jane Doe, and Gary Ridgway denied being responsible for her murder. After Angela was identified, it was revealed that she may have gone missing in Oregon. If this was the case, Gary Ridgway could possibly face the death penalty in Oregon, should he ever be charged with her murder. If Gary was responsible for the murder of Tammie Liles, he would have likely denied it to avoid implicating himself in the murder of Angela Girdner.

Despite Ridgway denying a connection, it appears that most investigators believe that Gary Ridgway is responsible for Tammie’s murder. The profile of Tammie is very similar to other victims that Gary Ridgway admitted to killing. In addition, Ann Rule’s book “Green River – Running Red” lists Tammie as a victim of the Green River Killer.
Well, one of those dates has to be wrong, if she was sixteen in 1983.

MOO
 
In my research for my Reddit post on her ID, most articles list the two as having 'strongly suspected' ties to the Green River Killer. I don't know if that's changed since 2009.
Well considering Tammie's identification, Angela's case is more and more likely to be brought up now. I believe Gary had, as a part of his plea deal, said he would plead guilty to any new crime of which there was sufficient evidence to prosecute him and that he'd admit to. That's how he was charged with Becky Marrero's killing when her body was found in 2010. He was not originally charged with her killing because there was no body AND he had said that he didn't remember killing her. But given the circumstances of her disappearance, relation to the Seattle strip, etc., he was charged. In this case, Gary led police to Tammie's body, and Tammie was also tied to Angela so it seems to me that the evidence is even stronger than in Marrero's case.
 
Well considering Tammie's identification, Angela's case is more and more likely to be brought up now. I believe Gary had, as a part of his plea deal, said he would plead guilty to any new crime of which there was sufficient evidence to prosecute him and that he'd admit to. That's how he was charged with Becky Marrero's killing when her body was found in 2010. He was not originally charged with her killing because there was no body AND he had said that he didn't remember killing her. But given the circumstances of her disappearance, relation to the Seattle strip, etc., he was charged. In this case, Gary led police to Tammie's body, and Tammie was also tied to Angela so it seems to me that the evidence is even stronger than in Marrero's case.
In this case, I hope LE will make a statement about Angela's case. IMO, there's much more evidence linking Angela to Ridgway than any Rebecca or even some suspected murders he confessed to. The only thing we don't have is a confession, though Ridgway has been proven to be not credible in Tammie and Angela's case.
 
No, he denied their murders. If I’m remembering correctly, the plea deal that kept the death penalty off the table didn’t apply to Angela Girdner and to the skull previously identified as Tammie because they were found in a different county. This could prove that he is responsible for their murders. It will be interesting to see if LE pursues additional charges now that there’s more evidence pointing at him.
Hoping it also leads to more of his victims being recovered.
 
I have been following this case, the Green River case, since 1982. 12 years old sitting in Calgary watching the Seattle news via the Spokane stations, and it seemed like every weekend there was a new horror – another one lost or another one found and always in bunches. I kept notes of the streets and areas mentioned and tried to find them on maps from the school library. I had nightmares thinking that the Green River Killer was gonna come and take my sister, who was the right age, and who had started running away. I remember watching a special report one night, almost until the sun came up when they thought they had him, but nope, it was that fur-trapper guy, B. McLean. Then that Stevens guy was surely the killer (but nope). They never charged Stevens and then news of the Green River Killer just kind of drifted away, popping up now and again whenever a skeleton was found. The first time I had a chance to get on the internet, 1998ish, the first question I typed in was Who was the Green River Killer? and was shocked to find out that they still hadn’t got him. Around that time, he was like a ghost, like someone with a charm or spell around him. When you consider, after those five women in the river – girls really, most of them – King County sent 25 detectives out to get him, and they knew exactly where he was finding his victims, and he still managed to murder 45 more. 45. It's incomprehensible.

With these remains now known, that is the last of the unidentified victims. Maybe there will be more skeletons found in the future, but it looks like this closes a chapter, or at least a paragraph, in the Green River case. What amazing work the genealogists and groups like Othram are doing.

I do, however, have questions. The Seattle Times notes that Bones-20, who we now know as Tammie Liles, consisted of a few bones and teeth. (Last known set of remains linked to Green River killer identified as Everett teen).

Smith and Guillen in 1991 wrote that the portion of Tammie Liles that was taken to Oregon was identified in 1985 when her sister contacted the task force to say that Tammie had been missing for a while. Liles was subsequently identified through dental records. (The Hunt for the Green River Killer, 2004 Paperback edition, page 426).

Am I foolish to think that Liles as Bones-20 should have been identified in 2003, when Ridgway first gave her up? I mean, isn’t that something you’d put together? ‘This one is missing some teeth, that one is only teeth…’ So, if Bones-20 was identified as Liles in 2003, what does that mean for Angela Girdner who was found near Liles? Could the knowledge that she was a victim of Ridgway in 2003 change the way they pursued that case? Surely Girdner should now be classified as an official victim, so are they gonna go at Ridgway again over this? That guy’s been trying to lure the authorities back under the guise of more victims and more locations but they seem to be done with him. Water under the bridge, I guess.

Now, I don’t want to make this look like a criticism of the detectives. Reading about, say, Tom Jensen, and the amount of dedication and frustration he went through due to this case almost brings a tear to your eye, but… she should have been ID’d 20 years ago.

This case is... frustrating as so many serial murder investigations are. You've got a detective with the worst case of tunnel vision in the history of tunnel vision; you've got a psychic finding a body; you've got a victim's family members taking the police to the killer's front door - literally - some eighteen years and 25 or so victims before he is ultimately arrested.

I really hope they can somehow find the still missing women associated with this case.


 
I have been following this case, the Green River case, since 1982. 12 years old sitting in Calgary watching the Seattle news via the Spokane stations, and it seemed like every weekend there was a new horror – another one lost or another one found and always in bunches. I kept notes of the streets and areas mentioned and tried to find them on maps from the school library. I had nightmares thinking that the Green River Killer was gonna come and take my sister, who was the right age, and who had started running away. I remember watching a special report one night, almost until the sun came up when they thought they had him, but nope, it was that fur-trapper guy, B. McLean. Then that Stevens guy was surely the killer (but nope). They never charged Stevens and then news of the Green River Killer just kind of drifted away, popping up now and again whenever a skeleton was found. The first time I had a chance to get on the internet, 1998ish, the first question I typed in was Who was the Green River Killer? and was shocked to find out that they still hadn’t got him. Around that time, he was like a ghost, like someone with a charm or spell around him. When you consider, after those five women in the river – girls really, most of them – King County sent 25 detectives out to get him, and they knew exactly where he was finding his victims, and he still managed to murder 45 more. 45. It's incomprehensible.

With these remains now known, that is the last of the unidentified victims. Maybe there will be more skeletons found in the future, but it looks like this closes a chapter, or at least a paragraph, in the Green River case. What amazing work the genealogists and groups like Othram are doing.

I do, however, have questions. The Seattle Times notes that Bones-20, who we now know as Tammie Liles, consisted of a few bones and teeth. (Last known set of remains linked to Green River killer identified as Everett teen).

Smith and Guillen in 1991 wrote that the portion of Tammie Liles that was taken to Oregon was identified in 1985 when her sister contacted the task force to say that Tammie had been missing for a while. Liles was subsequently identified through dental records. (The Hunt for the Green River Killer, 2004 Paperback edition, page 426).

Am I foolish to think that Liles as Bones-20 should have been identified in 2003, when Ridgway first gave her up? I mean, isn’t that something you’d put together? ‘This one is missing some teeth, that one is only teeth…’ So, if Bones-20 was identified as Liles in 2003, what does that mean for Angela Girdner who was found near Liles? Could the knowledge that she was a victim of Ridgway in 2003 change the way they pursued that case? Surely Girdner should now be classified as an official victim, so are they gonna go at Ridgway again over this? That guy’s been trying to lure the authorities back under the guise of more victims and more locations but they seem to be done with him. Water under the bridge, I guess.

Now, I don’t want to make this look like a criticism of the detectives. Reading about, say, Tom Jensen, and the amount of dedication and frustration he went through due to this case almost brings a tear to your eye, but… she should have been ID’d 20 years ago.

This case is... frustrating as so many serial murder investigations are. You've got a detective with the worst case of tunnel vision in the history of tunnel vision; you've got a psychic finding a body; you've got a victim's family members taking the police to the killer's front door - literally - some eighteen years and 25 or so victims before he is ultimately arrested.

I really hope they can somehow find the still missing women associated with this case.


Tammie wasn't the only one whose remains he moved or scattered. There were several, especially towards the end his active period in the eighties, who he was deliberately removing the heads of and placing them far away from the bodies, according to Ann Rule's book, and I trust her, she was close to those who worked this case. Without DNA, how would they have known B-20's remains belonged to the skull of Tammie? It took multiple agencies trying fruitlessly for many years before othram got a sample successfully that they could compare. That was the hurdle. There are many women and girls speculated to have been victims who have never been found. Ridgway himself has said he killed over seventy people. That means there are at least twenty out there, probably, that haven't been found, possibly more. B-20 could have been any of them, or none of them, until the DNA was able to be extracted.

MOO
 
I was thinking less DNA and more the dental records that they had in 85.
The B-20 remains were fragmentary and partial. They did not include a skull to compare dental records to. That skull was found in a completely different place. There was no way of knowing that they were from the same person without DNA to prove it.

MOO
 
The B-20 remains were fragmentary and partial. They did not include a skull to compare dental records to. That skull was found in a completely different place. There was no way of knowing that they were from the same person without DNA to prove it.

MOO
This is correct. It is why DNA testing is so important. DNA is the only way to link remains together with certainty, especially if they are dispersed in different areas.
 

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