WA WA - Samantha Sayers, 28, Vesper Peak, North Cascades, 1 August 2018

[sasha17]

My understanding is that they cannot set up there either even if they pack it in themselves. It sounds like they are allowed to use the trailhead parking lot but not set up in the actual mountain. That’s what official SAR does also. They use the trailheads to set up command operations.

I just re-read through the email between Kevin and the Forest Service (Kevin posted it in the Facebook group). It's a little confusing, but the Forest Service representative who is replying says they can set up some tents at the upper elevations (I think they mean at the Lake Elan location, like the Boy Scouts did) but the Forest Service wants the big operations center to be located on the forest service road (which is where the trailhead is) or at one of the established campgrounds down on the highway.

 

[iamtm]

I can see how FS has to be careful what they allow and most certainly are following thier own laws and their mission to protect the land, I get that. Sadly, if they allow such a set up, it is inevitable some others will feel entitled to such a set up but it won't be for a search or recovery mission and then issues will arrive. IMO of course. It would have potential for getting out of hand, that is what some citizens would inevitability try.
My parents were FS camp hosts for 20 years...the FS rules were strict but abiding by them was clearly instrumental in maintaining our lands for many generations. I got a little off topic but my point is if they loosen the noose they could open a can of worms.
Perhaps when this is all over, there will be laws,rules,regulations that will have to be implemented that address such a scenario.

 

[Phantasma2624]

I just re-read through the email between Kevin and the Forest Service (Kevin posted it in the Facebook group). It's a little confusing, but the Forest Service representative who is replying says they can set up some tents at the upper elevations (I think they mean at the Lake Elan location, like the Boy Scouts did) but the Forest Service wants the big operations center to be located on the forest service road (which is where the trailhead is) or at one of the established campgrounds down on the highway.

I just read through the emails KD says that a permit wasn’t given, but it also wasn’t denied. This fits with the proposal that they had not yet received official documentation that would allow them to set up a base camp where they want to. I feel badly if someone misled them on the phone, but given what’s in the email, they had no official confirmation. I think they may have put the cart before the horse a bit in terms of the search. I don’t think this was done maliciously, but occurred simply because they are not experienced in SAR.

I don’t approve of them releasing the officer’s name to the public in this matter. This seems only designed to encourage people to get this man in trouble for pretty much doing his job (even if it was 19 minutes before closing). I hope no one doxxes him or spam his personal accounts.

I don’t really understand why they need a command center there instead of where official SAR Groups set them up.

More than likely the forest service is operating within the bounds of its protocol in disallowing this. I could see there being very serious environmental and social implications to allowing such a camp where they want it for that long of a time. Furthermore, if this were I extended to the family of every missing person, there would be no parks left to enjoy.

In any case, this highlights the struggles many families go through during private searches for loved ones.

 

[Suglo]

I just re-read through the email between Kevin and the Forest Service (Kevin posted it in the Facebook group). It's a little confusing, but the Forest Service representative who is replying says they can set up some tents at the upper elevations (I think they mean at the Lake Elan location, like the Boy Scouts did) but the Forest Service wants the big operations center to be located on the forest service road (which is where the trailhead is) or at one of the established campgrounds down on the highway.

This plan sounds reasonable to me. Most experienced SAR people who they are asking to volunteer would probably pack in their own small tents, food and gear to search. Just like hikers on the PCT or AT do it. They can be up there for two weeks at a time searching if planned correctly.

 

[i'm someone]

Snipped and BBM for emphasis.

I think this is an important point! Regardless of whether she was lost, trapped, hiding, etc., if she was alive the first few days, she would have been visible with the heat cameras on the helicopters. IMO, this means she either died relatively quickly (before the heat sensing helicopters arrived) or she just isn't on the mountain in the areas they were searching with the heat sensors.

From what I have read of the official search, they searched every square mile with the helicopters with heat sensors.

This leaves me with these options remaining:

1. She isn't on the mountain, and hiked out or was driven away somehow.

2. She is in the area, but a predatory animal attacked her and dragged her and all of her gear intact into their den, leaving no blood, no trace, no trail or anything to mark the direction. Not sure that could be done.

3. She fell directly into an ice or snow feature, lake, or other deposit with all of her gear, completely intact. Pretty unlikely, especially since the snow cover and ice has melted and most of it's been searched.

4. This is one idea I've not wanted to share, but even more so now. But it has to be put out there at some point. Maybe she was despondent. As in, suicidal. She could be in any of the heavily forested areas either sitting up against a tree, as some people do when they choose to end their lives in the woods, or up high in a tree somewhere deliberately. I do not want to think of this simple but horrible possibility, but if she didn't want to be found this would certainly explain why she has not been. I don't think she would do that to her family, but I don't actually know her.

5. She wandered out somewhere and followed a road out of the area and has amnesia. Maybe as far as private land and into a cabin or something. The billboards should turn something up if that happened.

 

[Phantasma2624]

From what I have read of the official search, they searched every square mile with the helicopters with heat sensors.

This leaves me with these options remaining:

1. She isn't on the mountain, and hiked out or was driven away somehow.

2. She is in the area, but a predatory animal attacked her and dragged her and all of her gear intact into their den, leaving no blood, no trace, no trail or anything to mark the direction. Not sure that could be done.

3. She fell directly into an ice or snow feature, lake, or other deposit with all of her gear, completely intact. Pretty unlikely, especially since the snow cover and ice has melted and most of it's been searched.

4. This is one idea I've not wanted to share, but even more so now. But it has to be put out there at some point. Maybe she was despondent. As in, suicidal. She could be in any of the heavily forested areas either sitting up against a tree, as some people do when they choose to end their lives in the woods, or up high in a tree somewhere deliberately. I do not want to think of this simple but horrible possibility, but if she didn't want to be found this would certainly explain why she has not been. I don't think she would do that to her family, but I don't actually know her.

5. She wandered out somewhere and followed a road out of the area and has amnesia. Maybe as far as private land and into a cabin or something. The billboards should turn something up if that happened.

She also could have fallen and died fairly soon without having to have also fallen into snow or water. Someone who has been dead for hours likely will start to be the temperature of the things around them. Meaning that a body would blend in with any heat signatures.

I would imagine that if she was covered in brush or rocks, the sensors would have a hard time picking her up. Someone mentioned before that the type of sensors that they were using don’t really work well for any brush that is thick. So if she were hidden and had a heat signature at all, it might not have mattered if she were laying down.

 

[i'm someone]

She also could have fallen and died fairly soon without having to have also fallen into snow or water. Someone who has been dead for hours likely will start to be the temperature of the things around them. Meaning that a body would blend in with any heat signatures.

I would imagine that if she was covered in brush or rocks, the sensors would have a hard time picking her up. Someone mentioned before that the type of sensors that they were using don’t really work well for any brush that is thick. So if she were hidden and had a heat signature at all, it might not have mattered if she were laying down.

I agree, except the footage we have been given to look through and also footage of hiking the area, there is not a lot of "heavy" brush where she is expected to have been. The heavy brush areas have been trampled over by many different departments and searchers. I guess it's still possible, but there really are not many areas in the expected range that have not been searched thoroughly. For her to be completely covered and not showing any part of her gear there just isn't a lot of cover out there until you go into the wooded areas.

 

[Phantasma2624]

I agree, except the footage we have been given to look through and also footage of hiking the area, there is not a lot of "heavy" brush where she is expected to have been. The heavy brush areas have been trampled over by many different departments and searchers. I guess it's still possible, but there really are not many areas in the expected range that have not been searched thoroughly. For her to be completely covered and not showing any part of her gear there just isn't a lot of cover out there until you go into the wooded areas.

True. But as you point out, there are larger animals. These animals could drag a body for miles. So if that happened, it would make sense for them to have not found her. I hate to think of her being eaten, but that is unfortunately the reality of what happens when a person passes away in the elements.

 

[Onebest]

I just read through the emails KD says that a permit wasn’t given, but it also wasn’t denied. This fits with the proposal that they had not yet received official documentation that would allow them to set up a base camp where they want to. I feel badly if someone misled them on the phone, but given what’s in the email, they had no official confirmation. I think they may have put the cart before the horse a bit in terms of the search. I don’t think this was done maliciously, but occurred simply because they are not experienced in SAR.

snipped for brevity...
In any case, this highlights the struggles many families go through during private searches for loved ones.

Thank you Phantasma264, BBM this makes sense and if its true it is a major flaw in the search plan IMO. As reported in the Herald KD's father and the search team leader is a " a Black Hawk pilot and a chief warrant officer with the National Guard —"
https://www.heraldnet.com/news/the-8000-hour-search-to-findsamsayers-on-vesper-peak/

I believe he should know its important to dot and cross, don't assume. While I still feel sad for them I think they might have caused their own issue by missing the confirmation from the Forest Service who I assume is trying to follow existing laws/guidelines.

I was in their shoes at this point, I would get off the forums and get up there with enough gear to search/camp out for a few days at a time while the weather holds. Leaving the details of the IC support team to be worked out by non searchers.

They may have used up valuable time with the quest to set up professionally. Not that its "bad" but I am thinking its something that takes a good SAR team many years to establish. The family might have taken on a bit too much.

JMO

 

[carbuff]

Which scenario?

Sorry, it looks like the post I was quoting didn't get carried over. I was referring to Sam rushing to get back down the hill and slipping and falling in her haste.

I was thinking that a fall like that would be less likely to take her away from the trail and more likely to have left dropped gear, skid marks, rock falls, torn-up vegetation, blood on the rocks, or whatever.

 

[MaryLamb]

I have been following the discussion about Sam’s disappearance on NWHikers.net. They are mostly experienced hikers who know the area around Vesper Peak and the North Cascades. Many think that she fell over the edge near the peak and is at the bottom of a cliff either in the trees, which can’t be viewed easily by the drones, or slipped into a snow moat, which was a new concept to me. A snow moat is formed where the snow pack melts next to a cliff so that an opening is formed, like a crevasse. They can be quite deep and if she fell into a snow moat wearing all her gear, she could be severely injured and hidden from view. It is odd that with all the searching that has been done, nothing has been seen of her or her gear. But no one saw her after 3pm so where did she go?

 

[sumo]

I completely agree with all you've stated here. Since there's no evidence as to what happened, abduction of sorts has to be considered. Even if Vesper is highly populated, people have went missing from far less isolated areas than a mountain trail..and by 6pm, I would think it isn't very busy.

there is a non-emergency alert in the cascades about cars getting broken into along state hwy 20. i don't think it's close to vespers. the trail to vespers is almost thirty unpaved miles off the highway though. a lot of us will always find quiet spots away from people.

 

[i'm someone]

I have been following the discussion about Sam’s disappearance on NWHikers.net. They are mostly experienced hikers who know the area around Vesper Peak and the North Cascades. Many think that she fell over the edge near the peak and is at the bottom of a cliff either in the trees, which can’t be viewed easily by the drones, or slipped into a snow moat, which was a new concept to me. A snow moat is formed where the snow pack melts next to a cliff so that an opening is formed, like a crevasse. They can be quite deep and if she fell into a snow moat wearing all her gear, she could be severely injured and hidden from view. It is odd that with all the searching that has been done, nothing has been seen of her or her gear. But no one saw her after 3pm so where did she go?

I went over and perused the thread. Has to be the most rude bunch I've read in a long time. If those are active hikers I'll eat one of the marmots on the mountain. No wonder there is such animosity. If they were as familiar with Vesper Peak as they claim, they'd be up there helping out instead of ridiculing a family who is trying to find someone. Also, people leave trail magic and supplies on trails all the time. They are called trail angels. These guys act like they have never heard of this "leaving out of supplies for another person". This kind of "not my circus" attitude is thankfully fading away in society, I hope those guys grow a conscience. Trolls and squirrels are not the most useful bunch. I live for the day when people have that drive to help and get involved in positive ways instead of acting like one does in kindergarten. Mods can go ahead and snip away at this, I am just disgusted at the level of apathy being shown, actually in most missing persons cases.

 

[sasha17]

there is a non-emergency alert in the cascades about cars getting broken into along state hwy 20. i don't think it's close to vespers. the trail to vespers is almost thirty unpaved miles off the highway though. a lot of us will always find quiet spots away from people.

There are frequently break ins in cars at the trailheads all along the Mountain Loop Highway. It happens a lot, unfortunately. I did consider that maybe Sam descended the trail and got back to the trailhead, but walked up on someone trying to break into her car (or another car) and that person harmed her.

The trailhead to Vesper Peak is 2.5 miles off the main highway. That highway is paved. The 2.5 miles is a Forest Service road and I can't recall off the top of my head if that particular FS road is paved or gravel. (Editing to add: It's gravel! Information about Forest Road 4065: Mt. Baker-Snoqualmie National Forest - Home)

 

[i'm someone]

Thank you Phantasma264, BBM this makes sense and if its true it is a major flaw in the search plan IMO. As reported in the Herald KD's father and the search team leader is a " a Black Hawk pilot and a chief warrant officer with the National Guard —"
https://www.heraldnet.com/news/the-8000-hour-search-to-findsamsayers-on-vesper-peak/

I believe he should know its important to dot and cross, don't assume. While I still feel sad for them I think they might have caused their own issue by missing the confirmation from the Forest Service who I assume is trying to follow existing laws/guidelines.

I was in their shoes at this point, I would get off the forums and get up there with enough gear to search/camp out for a few days at a time while the weather holds. Leaving the details of the IC support team to be worked out by non searchers.

They may have used up valuable time with the quest to set up professionally. Not that its "bad" but I am thinking its something that takes a good SAR team many years to establish. The family might have taken on a bit too much.

JMO

I guess I am just trying to figure out what familys of the missing are supposed to do once LE stops investigating. Are we really just resigned to letting a case grow cold? Do the family members just say "oh well, we looked, back to work and life now". After how long? After the LE says it's over? After a week? Two? Is a month and a half really excessive searching for a missing person?

 

[Phantasma2624]

I guess I am just trying to figure out what familys of the missing are supposed to do once LE stops investigating. Are we really just resigned to letting a case grow cold? Do the family members just say "oh well, we looked, back to work and life now". After how long? After the LE says it's over? After a week? Two? Is a month and a half really excessive searching for a missing person?

No one is saying that they should go quietly into the night and leave their loved one up there. They should search for as long as they can, as safely as they can. Critiquing how the search is done is not the same as saying that the family is doing the overall wrong thing.

 

[Onebest]

I guess I am just trying to figure out what familys of the missing are supposed to do once LE stops investigating. Are we really just resigned to letting a case grow cold? Do the family members just say "oh well, we looked, back to work and life now". After how long? After the LE says it's over? After a week? Two? Is a month and a half really excessive searching for a missing person?

If you are asking me I didnt say dont search. I said I thought the extensive planning for what is being called “professional” might not have been the best use of search time. I suggested that hikers that are capable to actually do this task can pack at least a weeks worth of gear and freeze dried food to add water, small heater/stove/tent/bag/ etc and stay up and camp in what is being considered a location for the IC.
Experienced mountain hikers, PCT, these folks do this all the time in all kinds of weather.

Looking back at this whole week of planning instead of searching might not have been the best idea. Dont know anymore then anyone else really does and of course could be wrong. I totally understand what they are trying to do and I deeply hope it works out. I hope its all for the best and Sam is found.

JMO

 

[Suglo]

I went over and perused the thread. Has to be the most rude bunch I've read in a long time. If those are active hikers I'll eat one of the marmots on the mountain. No wonder there is such animosity. If they were as familiar with Vesper Peak as they claim, they'd be up there helping out instead of ridiculing a family who is trying to find someone. Also, people leave trail magic and supplies on trails all the time. They are called trail angels. These guys act like they have never heard of this "leaving out of supplies for another person". This kind of "not my circus" attitude is thankfully fading away in society, I hope those guys grow a conscience. Trolls and squirrels are not the most useful bunch. I live for the day when people have that drive to help and get involved in positive ways instead of acting like one does in kindergarten. Mods can go ahead and snip away at this, I am just disgusted at the level of apathy being shown, actually in most missing persons cases.

Trail angels never ever leave food unattended out on the trail. They personally meet the hikers and hand them food and beverage items. They may store water in caches for them in the desert areas but that’s about it. It’s not a good idea to leave food hanging around for bears and other wild animals.

“Offer food in person. Don’t leave food unattended on the trail.
When left unattended, food and beverages stashed beside the trail create a litter problem and introduce wildlife to human food. These caches often become eyesores as trash collects and is strewn about by animals, wind, and people. They are generally illegal on public land and limited resources are wasted cleaning up these sites. Never leave alcohol out on the trail: you might end up supplying alcohol to kids playing in the woods. By contrast, refreshments and food offered in person are more easily contained and cleaned up. Do not leave food or beverages unattended on the trail.”

Guidance on trail magic and for trail angels on the Pacific Crest Trail

 

[FlossyMay]

I'm confused. Didn't they leave a bunch of ziploc bags filled with food and such?

 

[sasha17]

I'm confused. Didn't they leave a bunch of ziploc bags filled with food and such?

Yes, Sam's family/friends did. I think that's different than the PCT "trail angels" folks who are encouraged not to leave food out because of the wildlife issues @Suglo posted about. (Although I'm now wondering if Sam's family went back and picked up the bags or if they're still out there causing similar wildlife/litter issues.)