WA WA - Seattle, WhtFem 30-50, 159UFWA, alias 'Mary Anderson', copper IUD, breast surgery scars, Oct'96

[Wossy]

That’s intresting. Wonder if she was Tajik. They are east persians that live in Afganistan and tajikistan, which is right above afganistan and Iran. I wouldnt be surprised if she left there in the early 90s after the fall of the soviet union and couldnt adjust to the new lifestyle.

 

[Friday Fan]

It depends on the amount of percentage. Ashkenazi Jews dont usually have Persian DNA at all. Some Mizrahi Jews such as Bukharian and Persian Jews are identified as partially Persian by commercial databases because they just are not represented and thats who theyre closest to. They do usually have quite significant other admixes, too, though.

But lets go the most obvious route in this case, which is that Mary is simply of Iranian heritage, no Jewish connection. She may have indeed been an exiled Persian. There is a huge Persian community in L.A. Maybe someone has a missing relative there? Id ask for submission of samples there.

I wonder how Mizrahi Jew shows up in DNA? I'm sure it's tricky. My Heritage lists me as like 13%. I am not Jewish because that's the way it was with regards to marriage in a very isolated region.

Family came from South Central Turkey. My Heritage is the only DNA company that lists me as Mizrahi Jewish or any type of Jewish, so I have no idea how real Mizrahi Jew shows up in other DNA tests like Ancestry, FT DNA or 23 and ME or GedMatch. I know what AJ looks like in GedMatch, but that's a different story. I do think Mizrahi's might show up with more Levant DNA than Iranians or Afghans.

 

[Friday Fan]

I wonder how common it is to die by cyanide poisoning these days. I can't seem to find much information on it, but my understanding is that it can be a painful death. Wouldn't there by better ways to do the deed if one wishes to commit suicide?
I thought cyanide was often used for cases where one could possibly be tortured, such as by spies, due to it's almost immediate effect.
Again, you don't often hear of people committing suicide by cyanide poisoning. Hmmm...

What? It was quite common. And it was verified that she died of cyanide poisoning. Currently, cyanide is not as easy to obtain as it has been in the past.

 

[Friday Fan]

It's very strange. Somewhere further up this thread, someone described how cyanide poisoning usually involves vomiting, seizures, and other symptoms before death. But the photos of Mary just looks like she quietly fell asleep.

Fatal doses of cyanide can cause instant death with very little symptoms. It was also confirmed that is how she died.

 

[Friday Fan]

I wonder if she was trying to escape a bad marriage and did not want to ruin her family's name by going through a divorce? (Especially if they were in Iran or Afghanistan)

Divorce could be considered worse than death and that would explain why she went through all that trouble to conceal her identity.

I noticed they checked her prints in Interpol and no match. Maybe check again?

If the DNA is correct, I doubt if she was Christian (Armenian or Assyrian) or Jewish. You can tell Armenian from Iranian DNA. Assyrian would have a strong Levant component. There are a few Turks with weird DNA. One guy with higher than usual Asian DNA said his family were "wanderers". But those are a small minority.

She went through alot of trouble to conceal her identity. She picked a somewhat generic name, a generic address, and a generic bible verse.

 

[Warwick1991]

Mary apparently spoke English without a noticeable accent. If she was an exile, she may have sought political asylum while attending a university here. If she had lived in the US since 1979 or earlier, she could have learned to speak without an accent. I was acquainted with several Iranians who sought political asylum in the US when the Islamic revolution occurred. They were already living in the US while they were students, and applied for asylum. In one case, the student’s father was executed by the new regime. Another Iranian exile I knew spoke English without an accent by the time he’d been in the US for a decade.

 

[Susikatze]

Mary apparently spoke English without a noticeable accent. If she was an exile, she may have sought political asylum while attending a university here. If she had lived in the US since 1979 or earlier, she could have learned to speak without an accent. I was acquainted with several Iranians who sought political asylum in the US when the Islamic revolution occurred. They were already living in the US while they were students, and applied for asylum. In one case, the student’s father was executed by the new regime. Another Iranian exile I knew spoke English without an accent by the time he’d been in the US for a decade.

I also think she was already quite some time in the USA.
She was probably single/divorced and really had no close family members living in the US at the time of her death. She may have emigrated around 1979 or the early 80s probably together with a husband. They eventually divorced or seperated and i assume she had no children from the marriage. Her last relationship or the marriage was not over very long ago when she died, since she still had the UID in place. Yes, many women keep them in for years after even if there is no need for them anymore but you cannot leave them in for more than i think 5 or 6 years, depending on the model

Jmoo

 

[Friday Fan]

Advanced DNA testing suggests her biogeographical origins trace back to Eastern Iran or Afghanistan, possibly with a Persian background:

Who is "Mary Anderson" (1996)?

King County Medical Examiner's Office Teams with Othram to Solve the Mystery of "Mary Anderson"

dnasolves.com

When I was looking at the "Mary Anderson" case, I notice they submitted her fingerprints to Interpol, thinking she may have been from Canada.

I tend to believe that she is a immigrant. The ethnicity DNA location is quite specific. (I personally think she is likely Iranian..but that's just me, based on her dress etc)

She didn't have an accent. In the movie, "Not Without My Daughter", Dr M, was an Iranian physician, had been in the US since 1961. The Immigration Act of 1965 removed country quotas and more Iranian immigrants began to appear in the US with HB-1 Visas. Many were professionals.

She could have been in the US for quite some time or she could have arrived later. Based on her dress, approx age and lack of accent, she could have arrived in the 60's or early 70's.

I knew Iranian students in the late 70's, but she doesn't give me this vibe.

I think she is in the older range of the age approximation. She could be as old as 55.
I think there is a professional background with a spouse or even herself.

I have no idea if there is access to immigration records or what....
I'm envisioning a 30 year old and her husband and I'm envisioning a professional. (MOO)

I could be totally wrong!

OK my 2 cents!

 

[Susikatze]

When I was looking at the "Mary Anderson" case, I notice they submitted her fingerprints to Interpol, thinking she may have been from Canada.

I tend to believe that she is a immigrant. The ethnicity DNA location is quite specific. (I personally think she is likely Iranian..but that's just me, based on her dress etc)

She didn't have an accent. In the movie, "Not Without My Daughter", Dr M, was an Iranian physician, had been in the US since 1961. The Immigration Act of 1965 removed country quotas and more Iranian immigrants began to appear in the US with HB-1 Visas. Many were professionals.

She could have been in the US for quite some time or she could have arrived later. Based on her dress, approx age and lack of accent, she could have arrived in the 60's or early 70's.

I knew Iranian students in the late 70's, but she doesn't give me this vibe.

I think she is in the older range of the age approximation. She could be as old as 55.
I think there is a professional background with a spouse or even herself.

I have no idea if there is access to immigration records or what....
I'm envisioning a 30 year old and her husband and I'm envisioning a professional. (MOO)

I could be totally wrong!

OK my 2 cents!

Same. She looks late 40s, early 50s to me. And certainly like many exiled Persians ive met in my life: secular, well educated and well off. Many were in the medical field but really, all higher educated professions were there.
I feel so sorry for her, she must have felt incredibly lonely and desparate.

 

[Lilibet]

It is possible that she was an Iranian exile. In 1979, pivotal events in Iran resulted in a huge wave of people fleeing to other countries, including the US. Events of that time included the overthrow of the Shah, the founding of the Ayatollah's Islamic Republic, and the seizure of the US embassy in Tehran along with its staff.

The new regime in Iran conducted mass executions of people associated with the Shah, and persecuted religious minorities including the Bahai, Jews and Zoroastrians. Women were executed for unwillingness to wear the chador. Members of these groups fled, along with many middle class and upper class people. Ethnic minorities in Iran also fled, including Russians and other groups who lived in Iran.

Perhaps there is a political component to this death. Iran has been murdering political opponents and former officials abroad since the beginning of the Islamic Republic, but this still reads as a suicide.

The mystery is heightened.....

Same. She looks late 40s, early 50s to me. And certainly like many exiled Persians ive met in my life: secular, well educated and well off. Many were in the medical field but really, all higher educated professions were there.
I feel so sorry for her, she must have felt incredibly lonely and desparate.

BBM

I wonder if she had received news that a beloved relative or friend in Iran had been murdered. I can imagine grief and despair could lead to suicide.

JMO

 

[Queena]

I have a cousin with a DNA profile that includes Eastern Iran and Persia. She is Jewish, and some of her ancestors came from areas of the former Russian Empire with ethnic and linguistic similarities to Persia.

That's a great theory. I wonder if there's a special database that those who are of Jewish ancestry uses?

 

[victoriarobinson642]

That's a great theory. I wonder if there's a special database that those who are of Jewish ancestry uses?

Not specifically, although there are a ton of us on most of the 'well known' databases. I have enough 'relatives' on AncestryDNA to fill a small city!

 

[JovanSrna]

I feel so sorry for her, she must have felt incredibly lonely and desparate.

Yeah, this is one of those cases that stay with you

Few Does leave a written imprint behind them and her suicide note and choice of psalm are really sad.

 

[Susikatze]

Not specifically, although there are a ton of us on most of the 'well known' databases. I have enough 'relatives' on AncestryDNA to fill a small city!

We (Ashkenazim) are generally overrepresented in the databases and Ashkenazi DNA in Gedmatch is a very characteristic mix of approximately half Middle Eastern and a quarter Central European and a quarter Iberian. The commercial services identify that pattern very well and usually correctly. And yes, endogamy gives us loads of relatives but most are distant.

And now there is the flip side. There are all the other Jewish groups. Mizrahi (Persian Jews are an offshoot), Sephardic, Yemenite and Ethiopian. Neither are well represented in the databases, the only one who gets them somewhat is Myheritage (which is an Israeli company and most Israelis are at least of partial Sephardic, Mizrahi or Yemenite descent and thus there is representation).

But really concerning Mary, Id just assume she was simply nonjewish Persian or Afghan. Also, not even the most secular Jew would put normally a Christian Gideon Bible on himself when committing suicide. Yes, it was just open at Psalms, which is by origin a Jewish thing but still, i dont think she was Persian Jewish.

 

[Friday Fan]

We (Ashkenazim) are generally overrepresented in the databases and Ashkenazi DNA in Gedmatch is a very characteristic mix of approximately half Middle Eastern and a quarter Central European and a quarter Iberian. The commercial services identify that pattern very well and usually correctly. And yes, endogamy gives us loads of relatives but most are distant.

And now there is the flip side. There are all the other Jewish groups. Mizrahi (Persian Jews are an offshoot), Sephardic, Yemenite and Ethiopian. Neither are well represented in the databases, the only one who gets them somewhat is Myheritage (which is an Israeli company and most Israelis are at least of partial Sephardic, Mizrahi or Yemenite descent and thus there is representation).

But really concerning Mary, Id just assume she was simply nonjewish Persian or Afghan. Also, not even the most secular Jew would put normally a Christian Gideon Bible on himself when committing suicide. Yes, it was just open at Psalms, which is by origin a Jewish thing but still, i dont think she was Persian Jewish.

I think the Psalm and Bible were simply ways of covering her identity.
"Mary Anderson" = American
Bible = Christian
NYC fake address, fake phone number...."No roads lead to me".

Gedmatch likes to give me Uzbeki Jew in several of their Oracles
(These are GedMatch guesses, which is not the same as showing the DNA matches a certain way, It's just saying I have some part of my DNA in common with Uzbeki Jews)

MOO: The Oracles seem to work best for Native Americans who haven't interbred with Native Americans from other regions.

Now, I don't know how many Uzbeki Jews they have in their database.

However, they don't give me plain old Iranian. (Although they will give me Iranian Jew) They like to give me numerous Northern ME minority groups for what it's worth. Like Lebanese Druze, but never Lebanese Muslim....I guess I'm an oddball.


Anyway, they have both Uzbeki and Iranian Jews in their data base.

I think if she was Jewish, GedMatch and Othram would have picked it up.

 

[Springrain]

Now that I am revisiting I am starting to think about the possibility that Mary Anderson was just someone who viewed herself as a typical American woman born and raised in the US who just happened to have Iranian/Afghanistan/Persian heritage without really any other connection to it. I think that is the simplest answer. I could be totally off though JMO

 

[arisam]

Now that I am revisiting I am starting to think about the possibility that Mary Anderson was just someone who viewed herself as a typical American woman born and raised in the US who just happened to have Iranian/Afghanistan/Persian heritage without really any other connection to it. I think that is the simplest answer. I could be totally off though JMO

I tend to agree. Washington State and New York (where she claimed to be from) have large Iranian and Afghan diaspora communities with deep roots. Nothing that I can find online about her mentions her having a discernable accent in her speech, either - something that people at the hotel would have noticed.

I have misgivings about this (as it feels somewhat disrespectful), but I think better clues would come from the kind of surgery she had, as well as the type of IUD. Best practices change over time, and the techniques and items used could indicate when and where medical work was done.

EDIT: Based on the description of the marks (both sides, marks being in the same area of the breasts, work done on the nipples), it sounds like it was a breast reduction. JMO

EDIT 2: The information available says that her IUD was copper. As of 1996, only one type of copper IUD was FDA approved (Paragard), so depending on the type she had, that could suggest the placement was done in the United States within a certain time frame, or that she got the IUD from somewhere else.

 

[arisam]

Sorry to double post, but something I found interesting: there is a section of New York that uses the 212 area code AND 569 telephone prefix. It's one thing to get an area code, but to know the area code AND the starting digits for a certain area would make me think this lady was at least familiar with Manhattan.

There's an established Iranian community in NYC - I wonder if anyone there would be willing to contribute DNA for FGG.

 

[arisam]

Posting again because hey, maybe someone will be able to do something with this information:

I did a little more digging and found out that while Paragard is approved in the United States, it is not approved in Canada. Since this Jane Doe didn't have a discernable accent according to people at the hotel who saw her, it's a reasonable bet to think she's either from the US or Canada. So if it's not a Paragard, there's a good chance she's either from Canada, or has had medical work done in Canada. Wish there was a way for us to find out, but I understand that's super invasive. I suppose the best thing to do is wait for the FGG to work its way out.

 

[Sweetluv]

Bumping!