WA WA - Shantina Smiley, 29, & Azriel Carver, 8 (fnd deceased), Olympia, Mar 2010 - #2

[eleven]

I've been around alcoholics and what I've observed is they get drunk really fast...i.e. they used to be able to have a few drinks before feeling it, but now it only takes one.

THEORY - IMO she gave her little boy something to put him to sleep or maybe even kill him, then she took something and she passed out. The tide came in and that was it. My prayers go out to the family.:angel:

I think it's quite the opposite from that....an alcoholic has a higher tolerance, so it takes MORE alcohol to get drunk than it does someone who isn't a heavy drinker.

 

[slowbutsteady]

I think it's quite the opposite from that....an alcoholic has a higher tolerance, so it takes MORE alcohol to get drunk than it does someone who isn't a heavy drinker.

Not if their liver & kidneys are shot.

 

[slowbutsteady]

Not if their liver & kidneys are shot.

that being said - I'm sure everyone is different. It will be interesting to see what the autopsy report says. Regardless...it's just so very sad.

 

[Mendara]

I am saddened by the death of this little boy. This whole thing just does not seem right to me. What are the odds that both drowned accidentally? Must be pretty long odds right? Something here stinks. I believe either the mom is alive and murdered her son(less likely). But it could possibly be a murder suicide. Or the fiance is somehow responsible for this . This is the most likely scenario in my opinion although i am struggling with the fact that most murders involving the bfriend rarely result in the death of a child as well as a parent. I will be curious to hear the COD to this young boy. Any signs of struggle?

Fiance could not have done this, she was last seen at 10:00pm - he was already searching for her in another part of town with her stepfather.

 

[jadejazzkayla]

Just on Fox news. Autopsy to be released within the hour. Any locals here? Hows the weather, are they still searching for mom?

i haven't heard anything from fox. You?

 

[LogicalMinds]

Her tolerance could vary from time to time as it varies from person to person

I do feel that the visit to the stepfather might have been scheduled so she could "work her steps">>.ie, make "amends" etc...some in the 12 steps do this in person...it should never be done until the person is really sober and ready and with help of a good sponsor..some times nowadays people don't do this in person even if too dangerous or too mentally harmful

however..I think that is what she should have done but of course if she had just relapsed, then she had NO business even attempting that

The fact that the fiancee took her wine tasting and/or drank beer with her tells me that they were NOT in a family program he was NOT in al anon, or had not gotten help/counseling

In the 80's she would have been in a 28 day program...he would have been invited in for group sessions and family sessions....she could even have gotten disability and they both could have recieved counseling sessions in addition to aa and al anon

now?? You are lucky to fina a church or place that lets the12 steps meet free
and you have to be the one to reach out and get help

I hope he gets help and counseling now

Alcoholics tend to be creative and clever....it is their MO to tell unsuspecting and well meaning loved ones that "this is ok for me"... ie, "My problems were with vodka, or rum..my problems were drinking in clubs...I can have a nice social wine with dinner...I can have a beer at home on the couch when we watch the game"

which of course is bs...one drink is too many and a thousand isn't enough

as soon as they pick up the first drink all bets are off..anything can and will happen and it probably will not be good

al anon (and groups for kids) doesn't require that family members be tee totatlers tho it helps if they abstain....they are NOT responsible for the drunk tho
and that is what it teaches them

making friends with others in the same sinking boat is really helpful

Legal remedies aren't easy but the fiancee and even the son could have had some safeguards in place...ie, don't go off with mom, have a cell phone...don't argue with mom but get away and call

I think his desire to push up the wedding was an attempt to adopt this poor little guy

this is just a tragedy...if she was diabetic and went into a coma, or epileptic and had a seizure we would call it a tragedy

she had an untreated disease...a disease that sickens family members too...and they were untreated

if you want to blame anyone blame the budget cuts , the closed rehabs, the lack of a safeguard or a way to put a drunk in a rehab or dry out or put a mentally ill person in a hospital for a week or so or put a drunk in a mental hospital (because they are insane when they drink, period...doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the truest definition of insanity..and the family members who go along with it are just as sick)

 

[Calliope]

SS is 29, so she likely graduated from college many years ago, although she could have gone later in life than most. Even so, there is such a thing as a functioning alcoholic/addict. I know someone who obtained a Master's degree while being addicted to heroin - no kidding. Just because someone isn't falling over drunk and slurring their words 24/7 doesn't mean they are not an alcoholic. There are millions of Americans who continue to go to work or school each day while hiding their addiction to alcohol or another drug. That's the nature of the disease - they become VERY adept at hiding it.

I understand that. I'm just pointing out that someone who drinks isn't necessarily addicted to alcohol. She did recently finish college for medical coding, IIRC.

 

[Calliope]

Alcoholism is basically a "self diagnosed" disease regarding treatment....however it is NOT hard to diagnose..IF drinking is causing problems...there it is

and this is surely beyond a "problem"....

the one calling her an alcoholic is likely correct..but probably has problems of his own IMHO, most people who voluntarily stick with an active alcoholic do, often people who grew up with alcoholics

yes, probably the autopsy will determine it for sure

I do see a LOT of (well meaning) misinformation spread here...frankly most people who get DUI's have a real problem with booze....

there is a saying "Park Bench to Park Avenue"....your idea that she didn't look like a "full blown alcoholic" would be a good joke in a 12 step room...they can look like anyone....like Sen Ted Kennedy's wife Joan....or a pill poppin first lady like Betty Ford.....and so on

When sober an alcholic can do all sorts of things...operate on your brain even...you just don't want to be the paitent the day they have a "slip"

It is truly misleading to even say things like "she did well in college"...etc

Alcoholism is a 3 fold disease....physical, mental , spiritual

as far as the physical goes, most of them do react differently to booze than other people..they have more of a craving, they don't have an "off" switch, once they get started they cant or won't stop,

they have various mental problems along with it..and people with varioius conditions like depression will "self medicate" with alcohol....and just the amount of messes and problems they cause makes gives them more mental problems

Spiritual...??? debatable but the messes, the problems they cause can leave them spiritually bankrupt, they feel very hopeless many times

The way they look, the way they act when sober has NOTHING to do with what they might do when they pick up the first drink...women in particular can "fake it" and can go to great lengths to cover their drinking, that may be why this poor woman went on this trip, maybe at some point the pressure got to her and she drove around in order to have an excuse to drink or a place to drink

what could have been done?? well ....not very much really. Years ago you could get them in a rehab but not now. Hard to baker act them even in Florida unless they have a diagnosed mental illness like bipolar etc

Maybe the fiancee wanted to marry her quickly so as to adopt her son???
without that, when sober she had every right to drive off with him...and anyone who says otherwise is just not cognizant of how things really work

There is a fairyland world here where strangers should "know" that a person is about to do something, where cops will answer any 911 call promptly and "do something", where family members are somehow able to make grown adults do things, where strangers should restrain an adult who looks like they might drink or might be acting funny....it just does NOT work that way in real life

You're basing this on the diagnosis of her fiance. Not everyone who drinks and drives is an alcoholic. Stupid and careless for sure, but not necessarily addicted to alcohol. There seems to be no evidence so far that alcohol affected her "physically, mentally or spiritually" since that time; that was my point. If that was her bottle of wine and she was drinking while alone with her son, that was beyond stupid and irresponsible and it infuriates me that her son paid for this with his life. But everyone here can take solace in the fact that she is dead now, too.

 

[Calliope]

http://www.mynorthwest.com/?nid=108&sid=298515

RS interview with Ron and Don.

Wow again he is leaving things out again. He said she hasn't had a drink in two years until she found out about his health issues. On his facebook in Feb they took a trip not only was she drinking beer but they went wine tasting. He has pictures from a winery and a wine tasting bottles from that trip. I don't get it at all. If she really had a drinking problem wouldn't her loved ones avoid alchohol along with them?

You'd think so, eh?

 

[Calliope]

Anyone have any knowledge about her relationsip with stepfather. Was it normal or unusual for her to be heading over there with Azriel? I guess I am trying to figure out like everyone else, why the drinking. Her out roaming around pretending to be lost, drunk, with son in the car just feels wrong to me. I wonder if the wine was purchased and the drinking began because she was stressed about the visit she was about to embark on. You know, like alcoholics will often seek to bolster their courage before tackling something distasteful or stressful.

Do we know, was she expected at stepfather's? Was the relationship between them strained? If so how? Sorry if some of this has been covered here but I just checked out this case, I have been so preoccupied with others.

I don't see how she could have been "lost" for all that time, although some here from the area say it's possible. But for 4-5 hours??? In any case, the grandfather had said in an interview that she had been to Castle Rock (where the step-father lives) recently .... IIRC about 2 weeks ago? RS has never mentioned that as far as I know. The step-sister says she was looking forward to their visit, so it seems they were expecting her.

 

[LogicalMinds]

I understand that. I'm just pointing out that someone who drinks isn't necessarily addicted to alcohol. She did recently finish college for medical coding, IIRC.

A problem drinker is one whose drinking causes problems

when it ends up with a child dead, and probably the woman herself dead, yeah that is an alcoholic

sure people drink who are NOT alcoholics..they use common sense, they are not addicted to it, they don't have the "special" problems and even physical addiction/craving/obsession with it

Despite my hatred for booze and what it did to my own childhood I got drunk once in college..on beer...I threw up...room was spinning

I have never had ONE beer since then, not a sip, not a try nothing

I have on occaision...wine with dinner...champagne on new years...a foo foo drink while on a cruise

I apparently don't have the "gene" for addiction but I have also been in various programs and therapy for the mental problems caused by this disease

some people in my family were in car wrecks, had other accidents, had swollen or hardened livers, could barely eat for puking yet they would do anything and everything to keep drinking

 

[pghbrandi]

I am still shocked over this. I really thought he would be ok. I was thinking, maybe he got mad at his mom and grabbed the wine and threw it in himself which then made her mad and things went from there.

 

[mtrooper]

Ouch....I hope this really hits home with all parents who aren't playing the role of a good parent. Seems like it is always a matter of neglect or inability to make decisions based solely on the welfare of the child...Seems like we have so many stupid laws on the books, why not add one or two to protect these children.


"If there are people who aren’t playing the role of dad, let this be a lesson to you,” he said. “It hurts.”

Read more: http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2010/mar/18/body-child-washes-ashore-fox-island/#ixzz0ieKm6sTv

 

[LogicalMinds]

You're basing this on the diagnosis of her fiance. Not everyone who drinks and drives is an alcoholic. Stupid and careless for sure, but not necessarily addicted to alcohol. There seems to be no evidence so far that alcohol affected her "physically, mentally or spiritually" since that time; that was my point. If that was her bottle of wine and she was drinking while alone with her son, that was beyond stupid and irresponsible and it infuriates me that her son paid for this with his life. But everyone here can take solace in the fact that she is dead now, too.

You must be very lucky to NOT have to know about this sad stuff firsthand

An alcoholic is still an alcoholic when they are not drinking...they are a "sober alcoholic" or "in recovery"...but they are ONLY one step away from a drink

of course she had physical and mental and spiritual problems or she would NOT have picked up the first drink..that is the insanity of alcohol and addiction..doing something again that you know resulted in bad things before

Yes, it is infuriating that her son paid with his life...but there were other people in his life...it is sad that they too probably needed help

Shantina's own mother committed suicide...the bio father apparently was not in their lives much....the fiance seemed to be in total denial...being able to pass a coding class means nothing in comparison IMHO

once she picked up the first drink all bets were off

I notice that NO one has addressed my various posts about the lack of rehabs, mental health emergency care, etc

that would have been the "real" solution here

 

[Calliope]

A problem drinker is one whose drinking causes problems

when it ends up with a child dead, and probably the woman herself dead, yeah that is an alcoholic

Maybe, maybe not.

sure people drink who are NOT alcoholics..they use common sense, they are not addicted to it, they don't have the "special" problems and even physical addiction/craving/obsession with it

Despite my hatred for booze and what it did to my own childhood I got drunk once in college..on beer...I threw up...room was spinning

Are you an alcoholic?

I have never had ONE beer since then, not a sip, not a try nothing

I have on occaision...wine with dinner...champagne on new years...a foo foo drink while on a cruise

Alcohol is alcohol, no matter what form it takes.

some people in my family were in car wrecks, had other accidents, had swollen or hardened livers, could barely eat for puking yet they would do anything and everything to keep drinking

Her autopsy should show damage of some sort if she's an alcoholic, I'd think.

 

[90Nine]

Looking at the map, it seems pretty incredible to me that all this stuff ends up in the same place if it all came from the van. It seems to me that a bottle, an inhaler, shoes, a baseball bat and a child's body would all behave differently, sink and float differently, be thrown by the currents differently. How did they all end up on the beach close to each other? Is this spot a common dumping ground where the currents eventually bring everything, given time? Or is the article using the beach as a generic concept and mean that the stuff was found somewhere on a beach in the area but not necessarily close to Azriel at all?

That is an excellent point. It is very odd that they would wash up at the same time and at the same location...

I was also wondering if someone (kids, etc) may have gone down to the beach, seen her car and took her stuff, but missed the wallet.

I'm so baffled as to where the overnight bag and purse are. Why didn't they show up in the same place as the wine bottle? They could have sunk, but the sonar would have found them

 

[Calliope]

Ouch....I hope this really hits home with all parents who aren't playing the role of a good parent. Seems like it is always a matter of neglect or inability to make decisions based solely on the welfare of the child...Seems like we have so many stupid laws on the books, why not add one or two to protect these children.


"If there are people who aren’t playing the role of dad, let this be a lesson to you,” he said. “It hurts.”

Read more: http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2010/mar/18/body-child-washes-ashore-fox-island/#ixzz0ieKm6sTv

I think it's pretty clear that every adult in this boy's life failed him miserably.

 

[LogicalMinds]

Ouch....I hope this really hits home with all parents who aren't playing the role of a good parent. Seems like it is always a matter of neglect or inability to make decisions based solely on the welfare of the child...Seems like we have so many stupid laws on the books, why not add one or two to protect these children.


"If there are people who aren’t playing the role of dad, let this be a lesson to you,” he said. “It hurts.”

Read more: http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2010/mar/18/body-child-washes-ashore-fox-island/#ixzz0ieKm6sTv

True....and it is hard to "blame victims"....which is being done here, but I do understand

actually IF you really look at a good percentage of the sad "cases" on these boards , a good number are full of bad decisions often fueled by drink or drugs and women who will put up with anything to have a man in their life at the expense of their kids

many of the child cases are stepfathers, boyfriends, negligent families.....and so often addition /booze is involved

some of the missing adults were "under the influence" and engaged in risky behavior ...especially young adults

Instead of blaming I hope we could have some rational talks about how to "change" things or improve things, I do like the spotlight forum for that reason JMO

 

[Calliope]

You must be very lucky to NOT have to know about this sad stuff firsthand

What makes you think I haven't?

An alcoholic is still an alcoholic when they are not drinking...they are a "sober alcoholic" or "in recovery"...but they are ONLY one step away from a drink

Of course.

of course she had physical and mental and spiritual problems or she would NOT have picked up the first drink..that is the insanity of alcohol and addiction..doing something again that you know resulted in bad things before

She may or may not have been addicted. Everyone who drinks risks doing something stupid. That's the nature of being under the influence.

Yes, it is infuriating that her son paid with his life...but there were other people in his life...it is sad that they too probably needed help

He was failed by everyone.

I notice that NO one has addressed my various posts about the lack of rehabs, mental health emergency care, etc

that would have been the "real" solution here

It's there.

 

[90Nine]

I was reading RS's MySpace page and found SS's posted comments very interesting.

From my experience, I look at her postings as her feeling insecure in some way.

These postings easily tell me that things were not as perfect as presented. I see a very co-dependent relationship with intense fear of abandonment on her end. This includes all of her postings, not just the apology posting. It's so clear to me.

http://www.myspace.com/cynthetek