WARNING:GRAPHIC PHOTOS Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #8

[Malkmus]

Thanks. I understand your opinion. I do realize many people do not consider the alibi problems, witnesses, bra clasp, knife, luminol footprints, bathmat footprint, mixed DNA findings, staged crime scene (did I forget anything?) as solid evidence. I wonder if it is because they take an imaginary situation in the murder room as a starting point? Personally, I start with the evidence and see where that takes me. I find any murder unbelievable and this is certainly an unbelievable murder no matter who you think did it. The innocent sites try to make RG the obvious murderer but I don't see that. That Hendry guy even turns him into a necrophiliac which is just plain disgusting IMO. Luckily AK's carefree attitude did leave plenty of evidence. She made some huge mistakes. She should have removed the Q-Tip box for example, and even the bathmat (although that is easy to say now we know her bf's bloody footprint is on it).

When I started gathering info on this case I tried all kinds of scenarios to at least 'declare' one of them innocent. I tried RG on the toilet and I tried AK in the kitchen or even RS falling asleep behind his computer. But after making up several excuses I started asking myself why I needed to makeup more and more excuses. I reached a point where it is no use to continue making up excuses. You pretty much resort to declaring all of the police, investigators, scientists, prosecutors, judges, even interpreters corrupt or incompetent. That isn't realistic. All JMO

Sherlock, since you don't believe the scenario involving Rudy by himself that some of us have put together - do you have one that involves all three that you could share with us? What exactly, in your opinion, do you think happened?

 

[Malkmus]

(snip)
When I started gathering info on this case I tried all kinds of scenarios to at least 'declare' one of them innocent. I tried RG on the toilet and I tried AK in the kitchen or even RS falling asleep behind his computer. But after making up several excuses I started asking myself why I needed to makeup more and more excuses. I reached a point where it is no use to continue making up excuses. You pretty much resort to declaring all of the police, investigators, scientists, prosecutors, judges, even interpreters corrupt or incompetent. That isn't realistic. All JMO

Why is that a stretch when we know for a fact that ILE is guilty of committing egregious errors in the process of their investigation - i.e. incompetence, the prosecutor is convicted for abuse of power, and the judge makes outlandish claims to support the evidence such as declaring that a 20 year old girl would carry a large kitchen knife around in her purse on a daily basis for protection? If ILE had done a better job, and the prosecution's theory actually made sense there'd be less reason to disagree with them.

 

[sherlockh]

Sherlock, since you don't believe the scenario involving Rudy by himself that some of us have put together - do you have one that involves all three that you could share with us? What exactly, in your opinion, do you think happened?

Well, that is the thing. Nobody can say exactly what happened. I speculated before on a possible scenario, but I think there are several on how it could possibly have started. If you want a scenario I refer to the judges report with which I don't totally agree but it describes rather well how they come to the conclusion that multiple attackers were involved. I have no idea who came into the room first or who did what first. The judges say it was RG that started, other people say it was all AK's idea. IMO it started as a 'joke' and quickly went bad. I don't believe the murder was intended. The most important is that all 3 are equally responsible.

Here is an interesting analysis of a real DNA expert's take on the case. He thinks it was more a fight than a rape attack. Warning (the article shows a very bloody picture of the murder room)
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...erdict-on-the-murder-of-Meredith-Kercher.html

 

[SMK]

Well, that is the thing. Nobody can say exactly what happened. I speculated before on a possible scenario, but I think there are several on how it could possibly have started. If you want a scenario I refer to the judges report with which I don't totally agree but it describes rather well how they come to the conclusion that multiple attackers were involved. I have no idea who came into the room first or who did what first. The judges say it was RG that started, other people say it was all AK's idea. IMO it started as a 'joke' and quickly went bad. I don't believe the murder was intended. The most important is that all 3 are equally responsible.

Here is an interesting analysis of a real DNA expert's take on the case. He thinks it was more a fight than a rape attack. Warning (the article shows a very bloody picture of the murder room)
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...erdict-on-the-murder-of-Meredith-Kercher.html

this is very chilling in its details and its overarching idea.....what troubles me, is: When Guede was caught, why would he not immediately rat out RS and AK? why not say, "ok, i admit, i was there, but it was Amanda who started it". Why say he had sex with Meredith, and saw people running away? In so many cases, once they are caught , suspects begin ratting eachother out. In the famous In Cold Blood case in 1957 in Holcomb , Kansas, wherein the Clutter family was murdered, suspect Dick Hickcock when he realized he was caught, said, "You're not going to get me for murder one. It was Perry, I couldn't stop him, he killed them all." In the case of the teenage girl whose friends pinned her beneath a 100 pound log in a river, when caught, they pointed the fingers at eachother. So why when Rudy was caught in Germany, didn't the headlines read, "Guede says Amanda killed Kercher, He couldn't stop her"? This to me is REALLY incongruous. Any thoughts? REALLY bothers me..............:waitasec:

 

[SMK]

Why is that a stretch when we know for a fact that ILE is guilty of committing egregious errors in the process of their investigation - i.e. incompetence, the prosecutor is convicted for abuse of power, and the judge makes outlandish claims to support the evidence such as declaring that a 20 year old girl would carry a large kitchen knife around in her purse on a daily basis for protection? If ILE had done a better job, and the prosecution's theory actually made sense there'd be less reason to disagree with them.

Well, well said.

 

[SMK]

Garofano told The Sun last night: "The scene was deliberately made to look like a rape after Meredith was killed.

"Her bra was found ripped off, but when the blood spray from her slashed throat was analysed, it showed it sprayed in a very neat V shape across her cleavage.

"It was not on the whole of her breasts, as it would have been if she was naked."http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/3243013/Italian-DNA-expert-gives-his-verdict-on-the-murder-of-Meredith-Kercher.html

Question: Why did Rudy immediately admit to "having consensual sex" with Meredith, as though it really were a crime of rape he was trying to explain away???

 

[sherlockh]

this is very chilling in its details and its overarching idea.....what troubles me, is: When Guede was caught, why would he not immediately rat out RS and AK? why not say, "ok, i admit, i was there, but it was Amanda who started it". Why say he had sex with Meredith, and saw people running away? In so many cases, once they are caught , suspects begin ratting eachother out. In the famous In Cold Blood case in 1957 in Holcomb , Kansas, wherein the Clutter family was murdered, suspect Dick Hickcock when he realized he was caught, said, "You're not going to get me for murder one. It was Perry, I couldn't stop him, he killed them all." In the case of the teenage girl whose friends pinned her beneath a 100 pound log in a river, when caught, they pointed the fingers at eachother. So why when Rudy was caught in Germany, didn't the headlines read, "Guede says Amanda killed Kercher, He couldn't stop her"? This to me is REALLY incongruous. Any thoughts? REALLY bothers me..............:waitasec:

I believe this was discussed before and it won't surprise you that my opinion is quite the opposite RG is claiming to be innocent. Accusing his partners in crime would not help him with that. With that he would pressure them and they could very well accuse him instead. That wouldn't help him so he blames the 'Italian stranger'.

Now had AK+RS not been with him it would have been very easy to accuse them. They were already arrested. He could simply change his toilet story a bit and claim that the police already had the right people. What could AK+RS say in defense? They don't even remember what they were doing. They could not say anything that could hurt RG so there is no reason for him not to accuse them if they were indeed not in the cottage with him. All JMO.

 

[SMK]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/3243013/Italian-DNA-expert-gives-his-verdict-on-the-murder-of-Meredith-Kercher.htmlIn court, prosecutors said Londoner Meredith's bra was ripped by Knox, 23, and Sollecito, 26, while he raped her, and her semi-naked body was proof of a sex game gone wrong.

But Garofano insists: "I believe Meredith was killed as a result of a fight, not rape. If we look at the photo of the crime scene you can see the top left corner of the room is not covered in blood.

"Yet to the left of the corner, blood has been sprayed up the white door of the wardrobe. They are droplets, not spurts of blood.

"This shows that Meredith's killers were in front of her when they made the stab, as the artery would have spurted outwards - the blood spurt went on the attackers.

"Meredith's head had a bruise on the back of it. This is where she was pushed against a wall.

"The inside of Meredith's leg was also bruised. This is consistent with a karate move she may have pulled off in an act of defence. "We know Meredith was a karate expert. Meredith then probably hit Knox. I say this because drops of Knox's blood were found at the crime scene, consistent with a nose bleed.

"Someone then restrains Meredith, maybe Knox, maybe Sollecito. While one restrains, the other stabs Meredith in the neck."Blood spurts over the attackers, which is why the wall is clean, but then Meredith slumps to her knees. We see blood spray across the white cupboard at kneeling height, where Meredith is breathing out the blood that has welled up in her lungs.

"A little to the left you will notice a pool of blood. Meredith was probably lying down by this point and bleeding heavily.

"She was then moved and continued to cough blood, which has sprayed on to the outside of the wardrobe and on to her chest.

"Meredith bled to death in a lot of pain. The attack was very quick and happened in a small area. The rest of the room is not disturbed. Her bedside table has a glass of water untouched and a letter perched. If the fight had been prolonged these things would have moved.
OK, when caught, why did not Guede say, "It was awful, Amanda began fighting with Meredith, and then she and Raffaele stabbed her"---why act like, "uh, I had sex with her and then some other guy ran away when I was in the bathroom"--why, why, why???????????:waitasec::waitasec::waitasec:

 

[sherlockh]

Garofano told The Sun last night: "The scene was deliberately made to look like a rape after Meredith was killed.

"Her bra was found ripped off, but when the blood spray from her slashed throat was analysed, it showed it sprayed in a very neat V shape across her cleavage.

"It was not on the whole of her breasts, as it would have been if she was naked."http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/3243013/Italian-DNA-expert-gives-his-verdict-on-the-murder-of-Meredith-Kercher.html

Question: Why did Rudy immediately admit to "having consensual sex" with Meredith, as though it really were a crime of rape he was trying to explain away???

I am not claiming this guy got all the details right. I was just showing that it is possible to differ on the details and still come to the same conclusions. Obviously I do think that a sexual assault was part of the crime. Rudy needed to explain away the DNA of him found inside Meredith.

 

[SMK]

I am not claiming this guy got all the details right. I was just showing that it is possible to differ on the details and still come to the same conclusions. Obviously I do think that a sexual assault was part of the crime. Rudy needed to explain away the DNA of him found inside Meredith.

Right, and if you see my other posts about this above, Rudy's behavior, his "seeming all in the dark" about RS and AK, cannot be ignored. He does not do the usual thing, and rat them out. I have even heard them speak of "a pact of silence" on Perugia Murder File. Why? Both Rudy and Raffaele could get greatly reduced sentences by turning on Amanda. Yet they do not, as though this incident with all 3 of them there never really occurred. This is very, very worrisome...

 

[SMK]

I believe this was discussed before and it won't surprise you that my opinion is quite the opposite RG is claiming to be innocent. Accusing his partners in crime would not help him with that. With that he would pressure them and they could very well accuse him instead. That wouldn't help him so he blames the 'Italian stranger'.

Now had AK+RS not been with him it would have been very easy to accuse them. They were already arrested. He could simply change his toilet story a bit and claim that the police already had the right people. What could AK+RS say in defense? They don't even remember what they were doing. They could not say anything that could hurt RG so there is no reason for him not to accuse them if they were indeed not in the cottage with him. All JMO.

ah, I see.....so what you are saying is, Guede still has hopes (even with appeals exhausted) that at some point he can be deemed 100% innocent? and if he blames Amanda and Raffaele, then he is implicated himself (i.e., why did he not call the police for help?)----OK, this explains a lot, but one thing it does not explain: With his sentence greatly reduced, and his appeals exhausted, why not rat them out now. Surely it would be considered a help????:waitasec: thanks for all your info

 

[sherlockh]

Right, and if you see my other posts about this above, Rudy's behavior, his "seeming all in the dark" about RS and AK, cannot be ignored. He does not do the usual thing, and rat them out. I have even heard them speak of "a pact of silence" on Perugia Murder File. Why? Both Rudy and Raffaele could get greatly reduced sentences by turning on Amanda. Yet they do not, as though this incident with all 3 of them there never really occurred. This is very, very worrisome...

BBM. That is your opinion. I don't agree with that. All 3 are equally responsible and got similar sentences (RG got a discount for the fastrack trial). IMO, it would not have mattered what kind of story they had made up. They were not considered credible anyway.

 

[SMK]

"Blood spurts over the attackers, which is why the wall is clean,(how did Knox and Sollecito dispose of the bloody clothes and wash the blood off? leave the cottage bloody without being seen?) but then Meredith slumps to her knees. We see blood spray across the white cupboard at kneeling height, where Meredith is breathing out the blood that has welled up in her lungs.

"A little to the left you will notice a pool of blood. Meredith was probably lying down by this point and bleeding heavily.

"She was then moved and continued to cough blood, which has sprayed on to the outside of the wardrobe and on to her chest.

"Meredith bled to death in a lot of pain. The attack was very quick and happened in a small area. The rest of the room is not disturbed. Her bedside table has a glass of water untouched and a letter perched. If the fight had been prolonged these things would have moved.

"That is why the idea of rape is far-fetched. Rape would have taken a long time and Meredith could have put up a fight. There is also too little DNA evidence to suggest she had been raped."( So no sperm of Rudy's found, no real "rape" in the actual sense)

Garofano also explains the involvement of Rudy Guede. He was a mutual friend of Knox and Meredith and may have been in a relationship with the victim.

Garofano says: "Guede said he was sitting on the toilet when he heard the attack. There is evidence he was in the loo.

"Someone at some point attempts to stem the bleeding from Meredith's neck with a wedge of white towels."Guede claims this was him and there is no reason to doubt that. But Guede then helped make the scene look like a break-in and rape." (Why did Guede not call the police, if he was "in a relationship with the vicitm"---"hey, my girlfriend had a fight with her roommate, and she just got stabbed"---what was Guede really up to? what was his stake in the cover up???)

Finally, Garofano reveals how Meredith's killers botched their attempts to cover up the murder.

He says: "The rock 'thrown' through the window is too big to have fitted through the gap.

"We also see that the glass of the smashed window falls all over the ransacked objects in the room. Yet Knox and Sollecito claim the window was broken by an intruder, allowing the intruder to climb inside and ransack the room, as well as rape and kill Meredith.

 

[sherlockh]

ah, I see.....so what you are saying is, Guede still has hopes (even with appeals exhausted) that at some point he can be deemed 100% innocent? and if he blames Amanda and Raffaele, then he is implicated himself (i.e., why did he not call the police for help?)----OK, this explains a lot, but one thing it does not explain: With his sentence greatly reduced, and his appeals exhausted, why not rat them out now. Surely it would be considered a help????:waitasec: thanks for all your info

By now he has pointed the finger.

"In prison letters to his attorneys, Guede has pointed the finger squarely at Knox and Sollecito, calling them "slandering assasins" who just blame others instead of admitting their own guilt."
http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/72922,people,news,setback-for-amanda-knox-as-guede-loses-final-appeal

I am not sure why he would rat them out now. He would basically have to admit that he was lying all along and why would he lie about the 'real killers' while he was innocently in the toilet? The evidence has proven that he was involved in the murder himself. He can only rat them out by admitting to his own involvement which he refuses to do.

 

[SMK]

BBM. That is your opinion. I don't agree with that. All 3 are equally responsible and got similar sentences (RG got a discount for the fastrack trial). IMO, it would not have mattered what kind of story they had made up. They were not considered credible anyway.

I understand, and thank you. I really am open to all ideas, and appreciate your input. Which is why I am asking questions --- I am not being rhetorical, I really want input. again, thank you.

 

[SMK]

By now he has pointed the finger.

"In prison letters to his attorneys, Guede has pointed the finger squarely at Knox and Sollecito, calling them "slandering assasins" who just blame others instead of admitting their own guilt."
http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/72922,people,news,setback-for-amanda-knox-as-guede-loses-final-appeal

I am not sure why he would rat them out now. He would basically have to admit that he was lying all along and why would he lie about the 'real killers' while he was innocently in the toilet? The evidence has proven that he was involved in the murder himself. He can only rat them out by admitting to his own involvement which he refuses to do.

thank you, am reading.

 

[SMK]

just more grist for the mill: Interesting comment on journalist who wrote the piece:


Comments
Andrea Vogt has utterly failed in her responsibilities as a journalist. Rulings in Guede's case and the statements of other prisoners who claim to know about the case have very little to do with Amanda's appeal. Amanda proved her innocence at her first trial at least when viewed by a competent judge and an impartial jury. Rudy Guede committed this crime so why would it bother Amanda's defense team if he is convicted. I would like nothing more than to see him stand up and give his side of the story. Guede was not friends or acquaintances in any sense of the word with the victim. She was in a relationship with an Italian young man who was out of town at the time of the crime. Guede says Meredith invited him over for a date, they had consensual sexual contact, and that somebody else came in and killed her while he sat on the toilet. He doesn't call police or an ambulance, even though prompt medical attention could probably have saved her. The cuts on his hands are not from the victim fighting back but from his heroic attempts to protect her from the real attacker. Later that night he is seen dancing at a disco. The next day he flees to Germany. Only an idiot would believe that story. Rudy Guede had in the weeks prior to the crime been on a crime spree that exactly mirrored what was found at the cottage. In one incident he got caught robbing a house and threatened the owner with a knife during his escape. Andrea Vogt is basically on the Barbie Nadeau plan. She reports what she would like to be the truth, not what is the truth. Both women are driven by ambition and hate. The problem is that both Andrea and Barbie will take a severe hit when Amanda and Raffaele are released and the truth comes out. Real journalists on CBS, ABC, CNN, and in the New York Times have been asking the hard questions all along and they are breathing fire. The trial has been called a â??kangaroo courtâ??, a â??public lynchingâ??, and â??an injustice of biblical proportions.â?? An understatement.
Posted by PhanuelB at 5:15pm on December 17, 2010

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/72922...nox-as-guede-loses-final-appeal#ixzz1I9AdLY3r

 

[SMK]

and another reader comment which brings me back full circle: right back where i started from:


[Rudy Guede]. . . left evidence allover the crime scene and there is no credible evidence of anyone participating in the murder followed by rape of Meredith. The parking garage CCTV cam only captured two people arriving at the apartment the night she was murdered. Meredith and Rudy Guede.(is this true? I do recall Meredith being captured on camera walking toward the cottage----how does LE explain this? why would AK and RS have been sneaking in a back way BEFORE a fight???) Guede said he was on the toilet when she was murdered and he did not include Amanda or Raffaele in his alibi until he conjured up his third alibi. In his second alibi he described a man that looks nothing like Raffaele. What good would his testimony be. While in prison four inmates said they heard Guede say Amanda and Raffaele were not there. Give me a break. The authorities were caught lying in court and the media numerous times. Get those kids out of there. My opinions are based on 11 months of intensive study of this case.

Read more: http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/72922...nox-as-guede-loses-final-appeal#ixzz1I9BcGGXm

 

[sherlockh]

SMK. I don't think you are allowed to copy forum posts or readers comments from other sites here. At least, not without permission. There is a rule here on that. I am not a moderator so I don't mind but you might want to check the forum rules on that.

 

[SMK]

SMK. I don't think you are allowed to copy forum posts or readers comments from other sites here. At least, not without permission. There is a rule here on that. I am not a moderator so I don't mind but you might want to check the forum rules on that.

Oh, gee, I thought it was all public domain. Ok, will be careful re that.....thank you. :dunno: