Was a stun gun used in the crime or not

[bettybaby00]

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10129&page=9

Kolar does what Smit failed to do...make a scaled one-to-one exhibit of JRBs marks to those of the pins of the train track...found by the body and throughout the home.


also, what kolar found unlikely about the stun gun theory--based on his own experiences in LE was that

the use of this device would not have knocked JonBenét out, nor do I think that it would have made her more compliant with her kidnapper. The delivery of this electronic charge is extremely painful and most people scream uncontrollably when they have been at the receiving end of this less- lethal law enforcement tool.

It was not clear to me as to when Smit thought the stun gun had actually been used during the kidnapping, but it is my belief that JonBenét would have screamed bloody murder if it had ever been used on her. Moreover, it had been his opinion that the stun gun had been used twice during her abduction – once on her face, and once on her back. Sound asleep or otherwise, I don’t believe she would have ever been able to have controlled herself vocally if confronted with the excruciating pain of this device. To have used this device on a small, 6-year-old girl, within earshot of the family, seemed extremely improbable from my point of view.

(3987-3993)

Beside the fact that...

Boulder investigators had contacted the manufacturer of the Air Taser stun gun that Smit ultimately declared to be the weapon used in this murder, and they were told in no uncertain terms that the marks on JonBenét’s body would not have been created by their device. This did not deter Smit.

Then he missed a crucial step when ascertaining that the AirTaser Stun Gun was used on JRB. There was no record of "any one-to-one comparisons to the abrasions on the back of JonBenét."

(3210-3211)




Kolar had scaled one-to-one exhibits made of JRBs marks with an "overlay of the stun gun head" (4995)

clearly not a match to the marks on JRB.

 

[Nom de plume]

IMO the marks aren't from laying on... They're from being deliberately poked.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Poked, OR, poked while the track was plugged in therefore causing the "burn" marks!

 

[gramcracker]

there are so many vids on youtube of people stunning themselves and their friends. (don't ask me why, because it seems a really foolish thing to do). there are also vids of LEO stun gun training. these are mostly adults with a few teens among the mix. they're all aware that it's going to happen, they're all willing and most of them come unglued when it happens to them. it is painful, unpleasant and overwhelming. there are multiple and varied verbal reactions: screams, shouts, yelps, cussing, etc. there's no way a small child who was stunned without warning wouldn't start caterwauling and carrying on for a looong time. and that's if it was done only once. but twice? no

Kolar's Foreign Faction/kindle location 5003:

One of my female officers, Christine Sandoval, volunteered to be a “beta”’ tester the following week, and I videotaped her jabbing and slightly twisting the head of the track into the soft flesh of her palm.

The pins of the track left red marks when sufficient pressure was applied, and I suspected that the twisting motion of the twin outside rails could have been responsible for the appearance of an abrasion, especially when considering that the target area was the soft skin of a 6-year-old girl’s back. It was my observation that the twisting motion of the pins could have created the round and slightly rectangular aspect of the abrasions as noted by Dr. Meyer during the autopsy.

I believed the discovery of this toy was a significant development in the case, and I contemplated the possibilities of its use during the commission of this offense. Ultimately, I had a good cop, and an old friend, to thank for unearthing this breakthrough.

 

[Anti-K]

As a general rule I stay away from any stun gun discussions. Primarily because I am not yet convinced either way. Maybe yes, maybe no. Anyway, I’m going to break my own rule (again).

On Kolar and the train track: I’ve some experience with model railroading (years and years ago). If the marks on Jonbenet were made by a “0” scale railroad track than I will eat my hat. I don’t care if the spacing matches because the abrasions don’t. You just aren’t going to get abrasions of the sort we see on jbr by using this track.

Yeah, I read what Kolar said about Sandoval twisting the track in her palm (why not her back?) and how it looked to him, and how he though the rails could have been responsible for the appearance of an abrasion. It makes me laugh. If I can get my hands on some of this track than I will make my own videos and post.

But, let’s pretend that you could cause the same abrasion that we see on jbr. “0” scale has THREE pins, not two. Yes, the pins do fall off, but they are only at one end of the track, not both ends, and any of them or all of them could fall off. So, there’s a 50/50 chance that the right end of the track would be used, and a 1 in 7 chance that only the middle pin is missing, and then...

Well, never mind that. Did the Ramseys have “0” scale track? We can see track in the Dailybeast video, but that track is clearly HO scale. For those who don’t know, HO scale is, and has been since the sixties, the most popular and commonly seen scale, and it is much smaller in size (two pins, not three). So, it’s nice that Kolar believes he made a significant discovery in the case, but where is the evidence that “0” scale track was even in the Ramsey home?
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If the head blow came before the stun gun, than there would probably have been no meaningful response from the victim.
...

AK

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Stun gun? I don't think so. But I'd give my eye teeth of go back to a pristine crime scene and go over those spiral stairs with a fine tooth comb to see if there was anything there, or on the landing, that might have caused those marks.

 

[gramcracker]

it appears that JK/Harry Stephens are aware of the differences between O/HO and that the Ramsey train was "O" gauge

Kolar's Foreign Faction/kindle location 4977

Sergeant Harry Stephens ... had retired from Telluride several years prior, but continued to come back and work as a reserve officer during the major music festivals. I was in the process of completing my case synopsis in late September 2006 during one of the fall festivals, and I took the occasion to show Harry a few of the video clips of the Train Room and Stun Gun Power Point slides.

Around a month later, he called to tell me that he wanted to send me something in the mail. He thought it might be responsible for the twin abrasions located on JonBenet's back. As promised, about a week later, a rectangular box arrived, and it contained a child's toy.

It was a single piece of "O" gauge style train track, the same model of train and track depicted in the crime scene video of the basement play room. The track had three pins extruding from one end.

I called Harry, and we spoke about the track. "It has three pins," I said, "and we only have two abrasions on JonBenet's back."

"The pins fall out all the time," he replied. "Didn't you ever play with trains as a kid? It's possible the middle pin was missing when this was used on her back."

Laughter. "I was an HO-3 man, and the pins weren't this sturdy."

I thought it over and said I'd take some scaled photographs of the end of the track.

I emailed a set of digital photographs to Tom Trujillo a week or so later. It took awhile, but Shelly Hisey again worked her magic with the Power Point slides. In late February 2007, I received a CD from Boulder Police with a photo array of slides.

The disc loaded into my computer and took several moments before the screen came alive.

[snip]

The pins on the outside rails of that piece of "O" type train track matched up exactly to the twin abrasions on the back of JonBenet.

This was a toy readily accessible in the home and located only feet from where her body had been found. Crime scene photos/video had captured images of loose train track on the floor of Burke's bedroom as well.

Lou Smit's calculation of the "close" match between the Air Taser stun gun and JonBenet's injuries had effectively been marginalized. This cornerstone piece of "evidence" of an intruder's participation in the crime, already called into question, had essentially vaporized.

Photo 29 caption: Scaled one-to-one Power Point overlay photographs of the "O" gauge type of train track found in the Ramsey home reveals an exact match to the abrasions located on the back on JonBenet (the center pin is missing from the track in this photograph). Source: Photo of train track by author, and Power Point series prepared by Boulder PD criminalist Shelly Hisey.

 

[renah]

I need to apologize to Sphinx and AK. My own post was impulsive and I mistook their comments as being part of the pre-Kolar book discussion...and then I read a bit further on& just saw red.

I am sincerely sorry. Obviously, it was my own remark in this instance that was amazingly dumb.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Poked, OR, poked while the track was plugged in therefore causing the "burn" marks!

I just don't think that is the answer. I think of course it could be possible but I still don't believe it was train track personally. Jmo. I believe it was a stun gun.

I have been around electric trains a lot and never have been burned by them. Even when they are not connected.


Forgive the autocorrect. Tapatalk has a mind of its own.

 

[Mama2JML]

There is evidence that we have never seen. In his deposition Smit shows a photograph of the victim that was taken while the body was still in the house. There is a white flake of something that seems to be stuck to the victim’s face.

Q. What significance, if any, would the fact that that stun gun mark on the right side of her face, the fact that it was made through the duct tape, what significance, if any, would that have to the white flake found on that mark from the photo taken of her body at the house?

A. I believe that that small piece of white material came from the duct tape, from the back of the duct tape, or through something else. I have seen no lab report on that. But that piece adhering right to that particular area shows me that one contact of the stun gun was in contact, perhaps with that duct tape when it was applied.
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If we look at the picture of the tape (the tape is upside down and mouth-side up) we can see what may be a hole that is in the right location if the flake on the victim’s face did come from the tape. There are also stains (A & B) on the tape that seemingly correspond to discharge from the victim’s mouth and/or nose.

[/URL][/IMG]

For the sake of argument let’s just say that a stun gun was used, and that it was used through the tape than we have some semblance of sequence: stun gun was used before death, therefore the tape was put on the mouth before death. No sign of resistance or struggle on tape suggests victim was unconscious and/or comatose when the stun gun was used. This lack of response to being stunned, and overall lack of resistance suggests that the victim was incapable of response, which supports a head blow first scenario. Being stunned through the tape, while still alive, also means that the tape was applied before the garrote, before the asphyxiation. Although, she could have been stunned during the asphyxiation (the garrote is one quick pull and then you are hands free while the tightened garrote asphyxiates without you).
.

Yes, there are fibers consistent with Ramsey; but, there are also other fibers that have not been sourced. Some of these un-sourced fibers are also on the garrote, the victim’s shirt and in her genital area.
...

AK

WARNING GRAPHIC PHOTO

The photo linked below shows the "white flake" hiding the second smaller mark on the victim's face before the body was transported to the morgue:

http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetfaceathouse.jpg

 

[Anti-K]

it appears that JK/Harry Stephens are aware of the differences between O/HO and that the Ramsey train was "O" gauge

Kolar's Foreign Faction/kindle location 4977

Right. So, retired BPD officer Harry had a piece of track that was taken from the Ramsey home. And, he mailed it to Kolar. Because that’s how BPD handles crime scene evidence, they let retired officers hang onto it so that they can mail it around whenever they want. This isn’t even funny, and it can’t be true. Harry might have sent Kolar a piece of track, but I doubt that it was a piece of track taken from the Ramsey home.

And, if you look at the track in the Dailybeast video you can clearly see that it is NOT “0”scale.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

I need to apologize to Sphinx and AK. My own post was impulsive and I mistook their comments as being part of the pre-Kolar book discussion...and then I read a bit further on& just saw red.

I am sincerely sorry. Obviously, it was my own remark in this instance that was amazingly dumb.

No worries.
...

AK

 

[bettybaby00]

Right. So, retired BPD officer Harry had a piece of track that was taken from the Ramsey home. And, he mailed it to Kolar. Because that’s how BPD handles crime scene evidence, they let retired officers hang onto it so that they can mail it around whenever they want. This isn’t even funny, and it can’t be true. Harry might have sent Kolar a piece of track, but I doubt that it was a piece of track taken from the Ramsey home.

And, if you look at the track in the Dailybeast video you can clearly see that it is NOT “0”scale.
...

AK

Kolar is in no way inferring that the track mailed to him was a piece FROM the Rs home...

Around a month later, he called to tell me that he wanted to send me something in the mail. He thought it might be responsible for the twin abrasions located on JonBenet's back. As promised, about a week later, a rectangular box arrived, and it contained a child's toy.

It was a single piece of "O" gauge style train track, the same model of train and track depicted in the crime scene video of the basement play room.[...] The pins of that piece of "O" type train track[...] crime scene photos/video had captured images of loose train track on the floor of Burke's bedroom as well.

emphasis mine
(4984-99)


And i can't get a handle on the sarcasm at times, but are we now making accusations that Kolar is a liar, and his friend steals evidence from crime scenes that aren't even in his jurisdiction?

Yikes.

 

[Venom]

Right. So, retired BPD officer Harry had a piece of track that was taken from the Ramsey home. And, he mailed it to Kolar. Because that’s how BPD handles crime scene evidence, they let retired officers hang onto it so that they can mail it around whenever they want. This isn’t even funny, and it can’t be true. Harry might have sent Kolar a piece of track, but I doubt that it was a piece of track taken from the Ramsey home.

And, if you look at the track in the Dailybeast video you can clearly see that it is NOT “0”scale.
...

AK

BBM- No one claimed it was.

 

[gramcracker]

the reaction to an unpleasant/unfavorable fact is not surprising

 

[Anti-K]

Kolar is in no way inferring that the track mailed to him was a piece FROM the Rs home...

emphasis mine
(4984-99)


And i can't get a handle on the sarcasm at times, but are we now making accusations that Kolar is a liar, and his friend steals evidence from crime scenes that aren't even in his jurisdiction?

Yikes.

No, we are not accusing Kolar of being a liar, and we are not accusing Harry of stealing evidence. We are in fact making the point that Harry did NOT have evidence and he did not send Kolar evidence and Kolar did not compare evidence.

However, Kolar does very clearly state that “0” scale track was found in the Ramsey home (photo caption, P. 386). He knows this because he saw it “depicted in the crime scene video of the basement play room.” P. 384

You can look at that video here http://tinyurl.com/8x5cp5a Go to the 25 second mark. See the model railroad track on the floor? That sure looks like HO scale track to me. The electrical cord running over the floor gives you a sense of scale, and can you see a third rail? No.

As an aside: Harry was assigned to keeping an eye on Pasta Jay in the early days of the investigation, so before retirement Harry was in the BPD/Ramsey jurisdiction.
...

AK

 

[bettybaby00]

No, we are not accusing Kolar of being a liar, and we are not accusing Harry of stealing evidence. We are in fact making the point that Harry did NOT have evidence and he did not send Kolar evidence and Kolar did not compare evidence.

However, Kolar does very clearly state that “0” scale track was found in the Ramsey home (photo caption, P. 386). He knows this because he saw it “depicted in the crime scene video of the basement play room.” P. 384

You can look at that video here http://tinyurl.com/8x5cp5a Go to the 25 second mark. See the model railroad track on the floor? That sure looks like HO scale track to me. The electrical cord running over the floor gives you a sense of scale, and can you see a third rail? No.

As an aside: Harry was assigned to keeping an eye on Pasta Jay in the early days of the investigation, so before retirement Harry was in the BPD/Ramsey jurisdiction.
...

AK

I glad to read your 1st sentence.

I know very little regarding the various gauge types of train tracks, other than that they exist. There does seem to be a discrepancy concerning what you (and another poster) see in the vid you linked. I have to wonder if this video has been edited/cut down in length? I find it very difficult to believe that there are no "O" gauge tracks in the house as Kolar also mentions they were seen throughout the home as well. Also, Kolar has presented this info to quite a number of people, and to me, it seems unrealistic that of all those people no one ever said, "hey wait a minute, those aren't "O" gauge!" If you (and I believe at least one other poster) picked up on this out of the limited pool of posters here, then it seems crazy to me that out of numerous LE professionals this went unnoticed. We also can never lose sight of the fact that Kolar, and I'm sure others, has often said that only a small fraction of the evidence is out in the public domain. Perhaps the gauge of the track is a question for Kolar the next time he's on Tricia's show.

Eta:

I hope it's ok to post a link to a comment from FF


[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showpost.php?p=193681&postcount=81"]Forums For Justice - View Single Post - Jim Kolar – 45 minute video discussing the JonBenet Ramsey Case[/ame]

It's a little hard to follow, but it seems as if they are discussing 2 versions of an interview where this clip had been shown. The "unedited" video was nearly 3 minutes longer, so perhaps it is within that footage that we see the type of track Kolar believes was responsible for those marks.

The comment this thread is associated with is a video taped presentation Kolar gave regarding his theory, and in it he again mentions that tracks of the type used in his investigation are scattered throughout the house.

Perhaps KK or cynic could clarify?

I would also like to better understand your comment that, "Harry did not have evidence, did not send Kolar evidence, and that Kolar did not compare evidence."

Are you asserting that since the track used by Kolar during his investigation is not one directly from the crime scene, it's invalid? If so, then how can Smit's stun gun theory/investigated results be deemed valid? He doesn't have the exact stun gun that he purports to have been used on JRB.

It is my understanding that ALL investigators will utilize items representing the suspected make/type/model etc., of an item that they believe was used during the commission of a crime. This is how prosecutions are developed. This is often what a prosecutor uses in court.

 

[midwest mama]

There was a model train/track setup in Burke's bedroom, IIRC.

I've read so much about the case over the years that sources blur together these days. DeeDee249 understands about reading the facts and "filing" them away without having to keep sources at the forefront, right DeeDee? If the forensic statement doesn't hold up, it is easily refuted by many. There would be absolutely NO reason for Kolar to go to any length to put his train track information in the book, back it up with photos, etc, if he wasn't certain that somewhere in that house there was type "O" model train track.
His reputation is too important to his career.

C'mon, find another beaten path that leads nowhere to go down.

 

[Anti-K]

I glad to read your 1st sentence.

I know very little regarding the various gauge types of train tracks, other than that they exist. There does seem to be a discrepancy concerning what you (and another poster) see in the vid you linked. I have to wonder if this video has been edited/cut down in length? I find it very difficult to believe that there are no "O" gauge tracks in the house as Kolar also mentions they were seen throughout the home as well. Also, Kolar has presented this info to quite a number of people, and to me, it seems unrealistic that of all those people no one ever said, "hey wait a minute, those aren't "O" gauge!" If you (and I believe at least one other poster) picked up on this out of the limited pool of posters here, then it seems crazy to me that out of numerous LE professionals this went unnoticed. We also can never lose sight of the fact that Kolar, and I'm sure others, has often said that only a small fraction of the evidence is out in the public domain. Perhaps the gauge of the track is a question for Kolar the next time he's on Tricia's show.

Eta:

I hope it's ok to post a link to a comment from FF


Forums For Justice - View Single Post - Jim Kolar – 45 minute video discussing the JonBenet Ramsey Case

It's a little hard to follow, but it seems as if they are discussing 2 versions of an interview where this clip had been shown. The "unedited" video was nearly 3 minutes longer, so perhaps it is within that footage that we see the type of track Kolar believes was responsible for those marks.

The comment this thread is associated with is a video taped presentation Kolar gave regarding his theory, and in it he again mentions that tracks of the type used in his investigation are scattered throughout the house.

Perhaps KK or cynic could clarify?

I would also like to better understand your comment that, "Harry did not have evidence, did not send Kolar evidence, and that Kolar did not compare evidence."

Are you asserting that since the track used by Kolar during his investigation is not one directly from the crime scene, it's invalid? If so, then how can Smit's stun gun theory/investigated results be deemed valid? He doesn't have the exact stun gun that he purports to have been used on JRB.

It is my understanding that ALL investigators will utilize items representing the suspected make/type/model etc., of an item that they believe was used during the commission of a crime. This is how prosecutions are developed. This is often what a prosecutor uses in court.

I think it needs to be shown that the track in the Ramsey home was “0.” No track as taken into evidence, and the track we see in the video does not appear to be “0.”

I’m not impressed with Kolar’s “work” on this case. I enjoyed the book, it’s a good read, but I think Lacey described it best in her Jan. 7/07 letter to Kolar: Your theory is based upon conjecture, which at times approaches pure flights of fantasy. Your conclusions are based upon suppositions and inferences with absolutely no support in evidence or in the record. Your presentation lacks the fundamental substantive factual basis from which reasonable minds cannot differ.

I must repeat, there is no substantive basis to your theory. It is almost pure speculation as to what could've happened rather than evidence as to what did happen.
...

AK

 

[gramcracker]

it often seems like this is a Justice For John And Patsy Ramsey forum instead of a Justice For JonBenet Ramsey forum

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

it often seems like this is a Justice For John And Patsy Ramsey forum instead of a Justice For JonBenet Ramsey forum

Justice for Jonbenet comes when the right person is convicted and punished. Whoever that is.