Was a stun gun used in the crime or not

[Heymom]

That's fine if you don't want to bookmark the post. In fact, I'd prefer you didn't simply point to it for someone else. You know the facts now -- you inform the nubes.


That particular brand was used in the demo because that is the brand that Lou Smit said was the only one that "fit" JonBenet's injuries. But even ignoring the prong distance, there is so much more that disproves his "stun gun theory." Smit also claimed that blue marks were left on her skin by the blue spark between the prongs? Really? :lol:


I'm not a doctor either, and I don't even have any kind of medical background beyond what I've read since getting interested in this case. But I know that in Boggs' case, the initial photos were taken during the autopsy within a day or so after his body had been found -- just like the injuries found on JonBenet. So the time comparison should be approximately the same. The photo showing the darkened wound was taken eight months after his body had been embalmed (the reason there is less decomposition than one might expect) and buried. That photo is the one that is often incorrectly compared to the injury on JonBenet's face.


Well... I have a theory on that (if my assumption is correct that you are referring to what Dr. Meyer called the "roughly triangular, parchment-like rust colored abrasion" on her throat in the AR). If you haven't seen it, I'll give you a link. Unfortunately, most of the photo links I used no longer work. But if you read over it, you can look up the terms for current photos. If you can't find them, let me know and I'll locate and post them. Here's the thread:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...gular-parchment-like-rust-colored-abrasion%94

No I think Userid was thinking of the mark on JonBenet's cheek, the one that might look like a burn, but that the ME called an abrasion.

 

[Heymom]

Some have speculated the circular wound was made by Patsy Ramsey's ring pressing into JonBenet's face or, perhaps, a snap closure.

And others believe it to be a burn, from perhaps a cigarette or a cigar, but I think the ME would know the difference between a burn and an abrasion.

 

[kanzz]

And others believe it to be a burn, from perhaps a cigarette or a cigar, but I think the ME would know the difference between a burn and an abrasion.

Right? I'm highly inclined to go along with the ME in this case, too. He didn't have a dog in this fight or any reason to take this case lightly. Yep. I'll take his word for it. Those marks are abrasions.

 

[Miz Adventure]

Here's is an interesting website that dispels myths about the stun gun (and the basement window).

If somebody has already posted it on this forum, my apologies.

Talking of the basement window, in his interview with Lou Smit John states that he moved a chair away from the basement door before checking for JBR. Nobody else who looked in that train room that morning saw a chair blocking the door. FW checked the basement just after 6am.

Which proves John went down there before 6am.


http://gemart.8m.com/ramsey/index.html

 

[Tortoise]

Right? I'm highly inclined to go along with the ME in this case, too. He didn't have a dog in this fight or any reason to take this case lightly. Yep. I'll take his word for it. Those marks are abrasions.

And for years there was a theory that a stun gun, causing a superficial burn, would fall into the category of an abrasion - the wearing away of skin caused by some process. That theory was not rejected by reference to the medical vocabulary or the autopsy report. By saying the mark is an abrasion, you have not made the possibility of a superficial cigar burn on dead skin tissue any less probable.

 

[Miz Adventure]

I'm confused. Why would anyone burn JBR with a cigar? Have I missed something?

The autopsy does not mention her skin had burns.

As for the stun gun, I thought we'd got past that?

 

[singularity]

Why would anyone burn JBR with a cigar?

Why would anyone kill her?

There's always been debate on what caused that mark on the side of her face. I'm in the group that believes its a cigar burn. There were two boxes of cigars in the wine cellar, one of which John attempted to distance himself from in the interview, and on the set constructed for the CBS doc(or was it a different doc), they show a lone cigar lying on the floor.

I don't think they ask about cigars or show a cigar in a recreation because it means nothing.

In the interviews when Patsy is asked about smoking, she claims they never smoked even though plenty of witnesses saw her smoking a cigar at her 40th birthday party. An obvious lie. Non smokers do not keep cigars around the house and they usually don't keep them in rooms where murder victims are found.

 

[DeDee]

Here's is an interesting website that dispels myths about the stun gun (and the basement window).

If somebody has already posted it on this forum, my apologies.

Talking of the basement window, in his interview with Lou Smit John states that he moved a chair away from the basement door before checking for JBR. Nobody else who looked in that train room that morning saw a chair blocking the door. FW checked the basement just after 6am.

Which proves John went down there before 6am.

http://gemart.8m.com/ramsey/index.html

I'm not sure that it proves John was in the basement prior to 6am. Here is the absurd heart of the matter. Lou and John are chatting about how the intruder could have possibly left the home leaving JonBenet behind. John suggests the murderer placed the chair, in the hallway, at the door, then closed the door to the train room before exiting the window.

Lou had to inform John that idea was ludicrous. It made no sense. Lou asked why would a murdering pedophile place a chair at the doorway and then close the door before fleeing out the window. John just told Lou he didn't know but refused to back off his story. This created the watershed moment when Lou skillfully developed the IDI for the Ramsey's.

 

[Tortoise]

I'm not sure that it proves John was in the basement prior to 6am. Here is the absurd heart of the matter. Lou and John are chatting about how the intruder could have possibly left the home leaving JonBenet behind. John suggests the murderer placed the chair, in the hallway, at the door, then closed the door to the train room before exiting the window.

Lou had to inform John that idea was ludicrous. It made no sense. Lou asked why would a murdering pedophile place a chair at the doorway and then close the door before fleeing out the window. John just told Lou he didn't know but refused to back off his story. This created the watershed moment when Lou skillfully developed the IDI for the Ramsey's.

I've seen the part about John saying the intruder must have pulled the chair back behind him, but not the part about the door being closed as well. I believe the door was open.

 

[BoldBear]

[Snip]Non smokers do not keep cigars around the house and they usually don't keep them in rooms where murder victims are found.

Cigar boxes aren't usually found in a room with murder victims? I'm not sure how many murder locations would even have a cigar box to leave behind.

A lit cigar would leave behind odor and ash. The smell of a lit cigar doesn't just go away.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

I've seen the part about John saying the intruder must have pulled the chair back behind him, but not the part about the door being closed as well. I believe the door was open.

I believe that the chair behind closed door thing was a lie concocted by JR to imply that he was the first one being down there especially before FW , simply to back up his little open window clue.
He had made up an entry point for the imaginery intruder which FW would see if FW was there before him.
The window was not open and he didnot push a chair behind the door. Jmo

 

[DeDee]

It will not swing the vote but I'll be casting mine for Yes!

There is no reasonable doubt, in my mind, that the Rs purchased a stun gun while in FL during the Super Bowl at Spy World and took it home to Boulder. The big deal is that they did not keep it out of BRs hands, I suppose. JB surely showed signs on her leg months earlier that are quite similar to the wounds that she died with. Would the Rs store a stun gun inside an empty box of cigars? The video was found inside of a desk drawer within JRs office.

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-stungun-video.htm

Whether or not the SG was used in the commission of this crime is the question.

It is my humble opinion, that the marks on JonBenet's face do not match the marks on her back, and hence were not made with the same tool or instrument. Her face reflects a large stun gun mark and the other spot on her cheek is smaller, from being zapped over the tape, especially where it melted little flecks of white adhesive from the tape, within that abrasion, resembles my interpretation of the evidence; conversely, her back twin injuries match prodding with the electric train track, jmhoo.

This torture occurred while JB was still alive but near death. Thus, the discolored abrasions showed no signs of the healing process. That forty or so minutes, in between two of the main events, the strangulation and the tremendously hard head bash, could have been spent torturing Little Miss Christmas. These were harshly sadistic acts perpetrated on an indefensible child. May God have Mercy.

 

[CorallaroC]

I believe that the chair behind closed door thing was a lie concocted by JR to imply that he was the first one being down there especially before FW , simply to back up his little open window clue.
He had made up an entry point for the imaginery intruder which FW would see if FW was there before him.
The window was not open and he didnot push a chair behind the door. Jmo

I tend to agree regarding the chair. In fact,within my own theory the CHAIR is exactly the item used by the killer to reach up and turn the latch to the WC door. Something the killer had done many times before to gain entry into that "forbidden room".

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Wouldn't there be a sign of livor mortis around her mouth if there were a tape plastered there? Not seen in the photos and no mention in the AR..

 

[Tortoise]

Wouldn't there be a sign of livor mortis around her mouth if there were a tape plastered there? Not seen in the photos and no mention in the AR..

I've seen the white mark where the tape was stuck over her mouth in one of the photos.

 

[TeaTime]

Surely no one is suggesting that the medical examiner can not tell the difference between a burn from a lit cigar and an abrasion or the marks of a stun gun from an abrasion?

Lou Smit made up the stun gun theory from thin air and it has grown legs for 20 years. Believing in and promoting this mythological intruder with a stun gun and a cigar does not do any justice to JBR it only serves to exonerate the family.

The CBS documentary showed us that a stun gun does not render someone unconscious, and JBR would have been screaming so loud, her parents would have awakened.

IT DID NOT HAPPEN!

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

I'm reading the True Crime Detectives Guild's book Listen Carefully! and thought I would share this. In Chapter 6 "The Intruder Myth vs. Evidence" they devote the first section to debunking the stun gun. Very interesting read. They talked to Steven Tuttle of AirTaser whose initial comments on Lou Smit's stun gun theory can easily be found online. Among other things he said, “It [the stun gun theory] defies the logic of what the weapon does.” He elaborated on that comment when recontacted by TCDG.

Tuttle was interviewed for this book and confirmed what he said years ago. “There’s no way that [the Air Taser] would make you go unconscious” he said referring to Smit’s claims. Tuttle went on to say, “The Air Taser at that time was truly more of a ‘pain compliance’ device.”

He described instances where the vastly more powerful and efficient modern day Tasers deployed by law enforcement were utilized on children, including a five-year-old, and even one case where an infant experienced the effect. In no instance was there a loss of consciousness. In the 5.25 million exposures to the effects of a Taser, he is not aware of there being a loss of consciousness. He said that 3.1 million of these exposures were field use applications, and the remaining were voluntary as a result of training or demonstrations.

Tuttle also noted that it would be highly unusual to leave marks with well-defined edges (as seen on JonBenét) because the person would be squirming to get away and it would take some time to make a mark that would reflect the shape of the probe. Rhetorically, he asked, “would you let someone leave something in contact with your skin that is causing extreme pain or would you squirm and move away. An example of a hot iron was used –wouldn’t you move away?” Tuttle emphasized that no device in the history of the company has had the effect of rendering humans unconscious. Tuttle’s comments were confirmed over and over again by law enforcement throughout the world who have experience with Electronic Control Devices regardless of brand. While in contact with an ECD, people are able to speak, scream, be cognizant of their surroundings, and remain conscious.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[kanzz]

Surely no one is suggesting that the medical examiner can not tell the difference between a burn from a lit cigar and an abrasion or the marks of a stun gun from an abrasion?

Lou Smit made up the stun gun theory from thin air and it has grown legs for 20 years. Believing in and promoting this mythological intruder with a stun gun and a cigar does not do any justice to JBR it only serves to exonerate the family.

The CBS documentary showed us that a stun gun does not render someone unconscious, and JBR would have been screaming so loud, her parents would have awakened.

IT DID NOT HAPPEN!

:goodpost:

Agree with every word.

Anything and everything proposed and promoted by - Lou RedHerring Smit - is bogus, imo.

 

[singularity]

A lit cigar would leave behind odor and ash. The smell of a lit cigar doesn't just go away.

Indeed.

Are you insinuating JOhn may have lit a cigar down there at some point hoping no one would detect a faint odor of decomposition?



I have smoked cigarettes for 27 years and used to smoke cigars once in a blue moon. One time in the late 90s I was giving my grandma a ride to Stockton. On the way there, I stopped at a 7-11 to buy her a cup of coffee. I bought one of those 3 packs of cigars(cherry flavored). I lit one up and after only a couple minutes she told me to put that out. Of course I obliged. I then had to hear one of my grandma's patented griping sessions for about 10 minutes(it felt even longer). She smoked cigarettes so I didn't think it would've been a problem. It was.

Moral to the story....

Don't smoke cigars in the presence of griping grandmas.

It is my humble opinion, that the marks on JonBenet's face do not match the marks on her back, and hence were not made with the same tool or instrument. .

I agree 100%. Never understood why some people say the marks on her face and back are a match when they clearly are not.

Thus, the discolored abrasions showed no signs of the healing process.

Another great point.

That forty or so minutes, in between two of the main events, the strangulation and the tremendously hard head bash, could have been spent torturing Little Miss Christmas. These were harshly sadistic acts perpetrated on an indefensible child. May God have Mercy.

I just hope she didn't feel much if any of it. There are other wounds on her body(the bruising on her shoulder area) and I've always assumed this is from someone kneeling down on her as they strangle her but its also just as possible those bruises happened earlier during the initial attack.

. Believing in and promoting this mythological intruder with a stun gun and a cigar does not do any justice to JBR it only serves to exonerate the family.

The family owned boxes of cigars so mentioning cigars is most certainly not exonerating the family.

I also doubt the stun gun issue but like Dee pointed out, they owned a video/manual for one for starters so its a hop, skip, and a jump from having that to actually purchasing one.

Everything used in this crime can be traced straight back to the house even IF a stun gun was ever used.

My issue and doubts about the stun gun has nothing to do with phantom intruders. I just don't understand the point of using it on her for any reason. The only point would be senseless torture and if it was used more than once(some believe marks can be seen in old photos are from this stun gun), I believe she would tell someone.


Great post DFF. Sounds like that book is coming in handy. You convinced otg to read it and you've just about sold me on it as well. After I've read the Day After Christmas I'll probably buy it. I want to support those running that Shakedown site. I have a hunch that when some unseen photos surface that sleuths have wanted to see for years, that will be the place...... :worms:

To any lurkers who haven't been to the site before, here it is....

By the way, anyone here who uses social media have a chance to win one of their Jonbenet books.

https://shakedowntitle.com/book-giveaway-jonbenet-ramsey/

 

[DeDee]

Surely no one is suggesting that the medical examiner can not tell the difference between a burn from a lit cigar and an abrasion or the marks of a stun gun from an abrasion?

Lou Smit made up the stun gun theory from thin air and it has grown legs for 20 years. Believing in and promoting this mythological intruder with a stun gun and a cigar does not do any justice to JBR it only serves to exonerate the family.

The CBS documentary showed us that a stun gun does not render someone unconscious, and JBR would have been screaming so loud, her parents would have awakened.

IT DID NOT HAPPEN!

My apologies, TeaTime, if my opinion differs from that of your own. The fact remains the Rs were inside Spy World within a year of their daughter's death. Further, they possessed a video about using a stun gun obtained while inside Spy World's shop.

A stun gun, by its very nature, stuns the recipient. There was a curdling scream heard at the Rs that night.

JonBenet was severely tortured before succumbing to her injuries. Once stunned, the victim collapses to the ground; thereby, rendering the victim incapable of forced movement for several seconds, while the body violently reacts to the intense nerve pain and muscle spasms. Plenty of youtube vids about it. However, the wounded cheek displays signs of her being unconscious when this act occurred, if it did.

As singularity well stated, it does not help exonerate the Rs one bit. Conversely, it implies the Rs quite possibly owned a stun gun and lied about it. A possible reason to fib is to CYA.

singularity, I've not written about the irregularities of the two separate injuries, her back and cheek, but agree that it is a fairly obvious difference.