Was a stun gun used in the crime or not

[Camper]

The stun gun is as real as the ramson ? note and the small foreign faction, the tooth fairy and BC's logic. All non existent. Lets see the small foreign faction of asian UC students break in the house through a basement window, without their ransom note, sit down write it, wait in the house until all is asleep, sneak up stairs, stun gun a sleeping child, scoop her up, carry her to the basement, crack her in the head with some hard object enough to crush her skull, look around and find Patsy's paint supplies, garote the child and molests her, cover her body and then I guess walk out a locked door. Yeah that makes sense.

--------------------mihaff, you have been talkin' to Lou Smit, come on now, fess up? Your thesis is flawed. Anyone knows you kin walk outta a house through a door that is locked, all you do is unlock it, hee hee. Now in a psychiatric ward you cannot walk out through a locked door, but ones own home you can, just twist the little thinga ma bob and go right out side. The trick part would be coming in through a locked door with no key, hmmm.




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[mihaff]

-------------------- Now in a psychiatric ward you cannot walk out through a locked door, but ones own home you can, just twist the little thinga ma bob and go right out side. The trick part would be coming in through a locked door with no key, hmmm.




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Never been in a psych ward, thanks for the info. lol

 

[BlueCrab]

Please folks, back to the stun gun (the subject of this thread).

In my posts above about Cutter's old "Ramsey Stun Gun Myth" articles the facts are clear and convincing that Cutter made a mistake in measuring the distances between the injuries on JonBenet's back.

If you take the trouble to measure and not just take Cutter's word for it, you will see for yourself that the distances are exactly the same between the two injuries on JonBenet and between the two prongs of the Taser brand stun gun -- about 3.6 cm, as scaled from the crime scene photos.

The evidence is overwhelming that a Taser brand stun gun (without the darts) had been used on JonBenet.

The probability that the tiny twin rectangular injuries on JonBenet's back, which match exactly the shape and measurements of the twin rectangular steel prongs of a Taser brand stun gun, are from something other than a Taser brand stun gun, IMO are at least one million to one.

JMO

 

[Camper]

Please folks, back to the stun gun (the subject of this thread).

In my posts above about Cutter's old "Ramsey Stun Gun Myth" articles the facts are clear and convincing that Cutter made a mistake in measuring the distances between the injuries on JonBenet's back.

If you take the trouble to measure and not just take Cutter's word for it, you will see for yourself that the distances are exactly the same between the two injuries on JonBenet and between the two prongs of the Taser brand stun gun -- about 3.6 cm, as scaled from the crime scene photos.

The evidence is overwhelming that a Taser brand stun gun (without the darts) had been used on JonBenet.

The probability that the tiny twin rectangular injuries on JonBenet's back, which match exactly the shape and measurements of the twin rectangular steel prongs of a Taser brand stun gun, are from something other than a Taser brand stun gun, IMO are at least one million to one.

JMO

-----------------topic: The Ramseys had a video on the use of a stun gun, what brand was it?

EVEN IF IF Cutter or BlueCrab are perfect in their analysis of measurement are correct, whatever, HOW does that take the Ramseys or anyone else to the COURTROOM to be tried for murder?

The place where the stun gun issue died was in the investigation, it twas said, THE ONLY WAY to determine IF IF IF a stun gun was used, WOULD BE to exhume JonBenet body.

NOW then the Ramseys would not allow that before, NOW 8 years later of living under the OLDE umbrella of guilt, would you not think that the RAMSEYS would allow it NOW to show their behavior of an innocent, or to move the case forward in some small way, to find the drooling perp they say exists? Hmmm maybe yes maybe no, who knows?

Can you just see Lin Wood running amuck, screaming etc, IF IF the State of Georgia went ahead with doing this?

Another poster recently stated that the STATE of Georgia could grant permission to exhume the little souls body, IF IF good enough proof were offered showing that by doing so would get the case off OF DEAD CENTER.

The only thing I see that could offer some honest evidence would be to check out 'the scarf' that John tucked around JonBenet in her little casket, and see if the fibers matched those found with the body.

Oh, heck I forgot, er I didn't know, IF IF IF the beautiful scarf that John got for JonBenet was ever actually given to JonBenet. Guess what, no proof that I know of that JOHN didn't give the scarf to her and would have BEEN SEEN being opened in the MISSING CHRISTMAS VIDEO. Hmmm.

NO ONE ON LINE here has taken the trouble to look up PR's exact comment in DOI and quoted the passage where PR talks of the beautiful scarf that John purchased for JonBenet. I loaned my book, don't have it. Betcha it is an open ended comment by PR, yes or no, hmmm.

Life goes on donut?

Oh and someone please tell me just HOW important the stun gun would be if it were found that one WAS ACTUALLY USED ON JonBenet, I missed that part. IF IF the Corporation that John formed did not HAVE a stun gun in its supply cabinet, you can just color me surprised.

Happy New Year everyone!!!



.

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[Jayelles]

Please folks, back to the stun gun (the subject of this thread).

In my posts above about Cutter's old "Ramsey Stun Gun Myth" articles the facts are clear and convincing that Cutter made a mistake in measuring the distances between the injuries on JonBenet's back.

If you take the trouble to measure and not just take Cutter's word for it, you will see for yourself that the distances are exactly the same between the two injuries on JonBenet and between the two prongs of the Taser brand stun gun -- about 3.6 cm, as scaled from the crime scene photos.

The evidence is overwhelming that a Taser brand stun gun (without the darts) had been used on JonBenet.

The probability that the tiny twin rectangular injuries on JonBenet's back, which match exactly the shape and measurements of the twin rectangular steel prongs of a Taser brand stun gun, are from something other than a Taser brand stun gun, IMO are at least one million to one.

JMO

BC they are NOT the same. I repeated Cutter's experiment, but instead of comparing the marks using lines, I drew a rectangle round the outsides. The marks on JBR are smaller and closer together than the pigmarks. The rectangles match the prongs on the stungun and the marks on the pig exactly. If I had a way to post a powerpoint presentation, I would.

 

[BlueCrab]

BC they are NOT the same. I repeated Cutter's experiment, but instead of comparing the marks using lines, I drew a rectangle round the outsides. The marks on JBR are smaller and closer together than the pigmarks. The rectangles match the prongs on the stungun and the marks on the pig exactly. If I had a way to post a powerpoint presentation, I would.

Jayelles,

If you replicate Cutter's experiment you will end up with Cutter's results.

You cannot compare the measurements of the marks on JonBenet with the measurements of the stun gun marks on the test pig. The pig's skin is thick and firm; JonBenet's skin is thin and flexible.

You must compare the measurement between the two marks on JonBenet with the measurement between the two steel prongs of the Taser brand stun gun -- using the centerlines of the respective marks on JonBenet and the steel prongs of the stun gun.

Also, there are two versions of the same "autopsy photos" of the stun gun injuries on JonBenet. One set has been tampered with in regard to the measurents. So that we are all in the same boat, please go to Ken Polzin's JonBenet site and click on "The Ramsey Stun Gun Myth". This is Cutter's article. (I think A CANDY ROSE also has the same information.)

Using a ruler, in inches please measure between the centerlines of the two injuries on JonBenet and compare it with the measurement between the centerlines of the two steel prongs of the Taser. The coroner's ruler is in each photo to help you transfer the measurements from your ruler to that of the coroner's metric ruler. You will find that the distant between the two injuries on JonBenet are about 3.5 to 3.6 cm apart, and the distance between the two steel prongs of the Taser are also about 3.5 to 3.6 cm apart.

This proves beyond reasonable doubt that the injuries on JonBenet are the result of being stungunned by a Taser brand stun gun.

JMO

 

[Miss Daisey]

Jayelles,

If you replicate Cutter's experiment you will end up with Cutter's results.

You cannot compare the measurements of the marks on JonBenet with the measurements of the stun gun marks on the test pig. The pig's skin is thick and firm; JonBenet's skin is thin and flexible.

You must compare the measurement between the two marks on JonBenet with the measurement between the two steel prongs of the Taser brand stun gun -- using the centerlines of the respective marks on JonBenet and the steel prongs of the stun gun.

Also, there are two versions of the same "autopsy photos" of the stun gun injuries on JonBenet. One set has been tampered with in regard to the measurents. So that we are all in the same boat, please go to Ken Polzin's JonBenet site and click on "The Ramsey Stun Gun Myth". This is Cutter's article. (I think A CANDY ROSE also has the same information.)

Using a ruler, in inches please measure between the centerlines of the two injuries on JonBenet and compare it with the measurement between the centerlines of the two steel prongs of the Taser. The coroner's ruler is in each photo to help you transfer the measurements from your ruler to that of the coroner's metric ruler. You will find that the distant between the two injuries on JonBenet are about 3.5 to 3.6 cm apart, and the distance between the two steel prongs of the Taser are also about 3.5 to 3.6 cm apart.

This proves beyond reasonable doubt that the injuries on JonBenet are the result of being stungunned by a Taser brand stun gun.

JMO

Blue Crab,

Where would a stun gun or Taser fit into the murder scene where 1-2 kids were involved? Was a stun gun found at the scene? Did the Ramsey's own a stun gun? I can't find anything to suggest any evidence at the scene of a stun gun.

 

[Jayelles]

Jayelles,

If you replicate Cutter's experiment you will end up with Cutter's results.

You cannot compare the measurements of the marks on JonBenet with the measurements of the stun gun marks on the test pig. The pig's skin is thick and firm; JonBenet's skin is thin and flexible.

You must compare the measurement between the two marks on JonBenet with the measurement between the two steel prongs of the Taser brand stun gun -- using the centerlines of the respective marks on JonBenet and the steel prongs of the stun gun.

Also, there are two versions of the same "autopsy photos" of the stun gun injuries on JonBenet. One set has been tampered with in regard to the measurents. So that we are all in the same boat, please go to Ken Polzin's JonBenet site and click on "The Ramsey Stun Gun Myth". This is Cutter's article. (I think A CANDY ROSE also has the same information.)

Using a ruler, in inches please measure between the centerlines of the two injuries on JonBenet and compare it with the measurement between the centerlines of the two steel prongs of the Taser. The coroner's ruler is in each photo to help you transfer the measurements from your ruler to that of the coroner's metric ruler. You will find that the distant between the two injuries on JonBenet are about 3.5 to 3.6 cm apart, and the distance between the two steel prongs of the Taser are also about 3.5 to 3.6 cm apart.

This proves beyond reasonable doubt that the injuries on JonBenet are the result of being stungunned by a Taser brand stun gun.

JMO

Sorry Bluecrab, I missed this post.

Firstly, I didn't "replicate" Cutter's experiment. I did my own using a different methodology bt my results pretty much confirmed Cutter's findings.

Now let me stress one thing. I really don't have an axe to grind with stungun theory. I don't think the Ramseys used a stungun on their daughter and I don't think they killed her. However, I am uncomfortable with following group think and I can only accept a theory if it is supported by facts.

The fact is, that I was highly sceptical of Cutter's research which was actually why I did my own. I wanted to prove him wrong - except that I didn't - I couldn't.

I found the graphics that had rulers on them and I used these. I believe I took them from Lovelypigeon's webpage. All of my methodology and reasoning is explained in the presentation. The graphic which jameson has used does not have a ruler on the image of Jonbenet and it is not accurate.

In my experiment, I scanned a metal ruler into the computer and sized it until it printed out exactly as real-life size. Then I sized the pig and autopsy images until the autopsy rulers matched the scanned ruler measurements. This means that they print out in real life size too.

Then I printed both images out on paper and on OHP acetate. This enabled me to overlay one on the other. The marks on the pig match up exactly with the prongs on the Taser gun. The marks on Jonbenet match neither the Taser gun not the marks on the pig.

I'm also uncertain of the coroner's description of the marks as "abrasions". I understand that stunguns cause little burns and believe a coroner would know the difference.

I have my experiment on a PowerPoint presentation and apparently (I have just been informed of this in the last few hours), I can upload this if I save it as a webpage. I'm going to do that, but in order to do so, I need to free up some space in my Delphi web area. I'll do that this week when I get a chance. I have a busy schedule over the next few days and I'm slightly disabled at the moment with a shoulder injury (I am wearing a neck brace too). I can only type for a little bit at a time - I'm not supposed to be typing at all but I was never one to do as I'm told

 

[BlueCrab]

Blue Crab,

Where would a stun gun or Taser fit into the murder scene where 1-2 kids were involved? Was a stun gun found at the scene? Did the Ramsey's own a stun gun? I can't find anything to suggest any evidence at the scene of a stun gun.

Miss Daisey,

The evidence of a stun gun having been used on JonBenet is on JonBenet's body. There were three locations on her body where twin rectangular marks, about 1 3/8" apart, appear and are noted in the autopsy report. The locations are:

o on the right side of the face near the ear;

o on the left side of the back; and

o on the left lower leg near the ankle.

The easiest to examine and measure was the one on the back. The injury on the face took a grotesque shape and is the most difficult to recognize as a stun gun injury. John Meyer, the coroner, originally described the injuries as abrasions, but later changed his diagnosis as consistent with stun gun injuries. There are crime scene photos available of the face and back injuries, but no photo available of the one on the leg. Therefore, most of the discussions on whether or not the injuries are from a stun gun use the photos of the injuries on JonBenet's back as visual evidence.

Here's how the coroner originally described the injuries on JonBenet's back in his autopsy report:

"On the left lateral aspect of the lower back, approximately sixteen and one-quarter inches and seventeen and one-half inches below the level of the top of the head are two dried rust colored to slightly purple abrasions. The more superior of the two measures one-eighth by one-sixteenth of an inch and the more inferior measures three-sixteenths by one eighth of an inch. There is no surrounding contusion identified."

The tiny twin rectangular injuries closely fit the measurements of the twin steel prongs of an Air Taser brand stun gun. IMO the injuries on JonBenet are the result of having been stungunned. If so, it could mean that JonBenet had been tortured and not accidentally killed.

The stun gun, if there was one, is missing along with a bunch of other crime scene items -- most notably the roll of black duct tape and the rest of the white nylon cord.

JMO

 

[Miss Daisey]

Blue Crab,

Where would a stun gun or Taser fit into the murder scene where 1-2 kids were involved? Was a stun gun found at the scene? Did the Ramsey's own a stun gun? I can't find anything to suggest any evidence at the scene of a stun gun.

I read the autopsy report that said the wounds are consistant w/a stun gun.
My questions are as originally posted.

 

[TLynn]

I remember Cutter's experiment - what I saw - the two "prongs" were in different angles.

The leg abrasion has never been shown that I know of - is there a picture somewhere?

The face had one marking - not at all like the one on the back.

If you post the pictures side-by-side, they won't look anything alike.

Let's say there was a stun gun - for what purpose? Stunning, knocking unconcious, torturing...?

 

[BlueCrab]

I remember Cutter's experiment - what I saw - the two "prongs" were in different angles.

The leg abrasion has never been shown that I know of - is there a picture somewhere?

The face had one marking - not at all like the one on the back.

If you post the pictures side-by-side, they won't look anything alike.

Let's say there was a stun gun - for what purpose? Stunning, knocking unconcious, torturing...?

TLynn,

The tiny rectangular twin stun gun marks on JonBenet's back were slightly out of angle because when the steel prongs of the gun were pressed against the soft skin of JonBenet the skin distorted, thus leaving marks on the skin slightly out of alignment. I explained this phenomenon in an earlier post on this thread.

There are no two stun gun injuries that are identical to each other. There are numerous variables in stun gun injuries, depending on such things as the part of the body that was shocked, the angle of the prongs as they touch the body, the length of time the trigger was held, the pressure of the prongs against the body, etc. The injuries are burns from the 50,000 volt gun, and they are more severe the longer the trigger is held against the body. I suspect JonBenet's facial injury was caused when the gun was held against her for a long time -- as much as 10 or 15 seconds. One to three seconds is the usual length of time the trigger is held.

For this reason, I suspect the stun gun shocks may have been for purposes of torture.

JMO

 

[WolfmarsGirl]

... I suspect JonBenet's facial injury was caused when the gun was held against her for a long time -- as much as 10 or 15 seconds. One to three seconds is the usual length of time the trigger is held...

But, BC, I beg you to look again at my photo link...Check out the pattern within the mark on JBR's face.

You will notice a series of tiny rectangular marks (that look like indentations to me) inside of the larger round injury.

Also, these tiny, rectangular shapes (indentations?) form a fairly distinct, almost symetrical pattern (which I traced and highlighted below the original).

How, could a stun gun, of any type, create an actual pattern within the larger abrasion?

If this is not possible, then it was not a stun gun.

My link again :
http://www.geocities.com/wolfchick942003/photopage.html

Can anyone answer the pattern problem??? Anyone?

To me, the facial mark looks far 'more consistent with' the pattern I see in the large cluster-ring than it looks like anything a stun gun could create.

 

[trixie]

There was a doctor of some sort, (maybe Dr. Warner Spitz?) who studied the marks and said they were definately not stun gun marks because of the pattern inside the black mark on her face. He said it looked like a "anchor." anyone else remember this? I saw this on TV but it may be in print somewhere.

 

[BlueCrab]

But, BC, I beg you to look again at my photo link...Check out the pattern within the mark on JBR's face.

How, could a stun gun, of any type, create an actual pattern within the larger abrasion?

Can anyone answer the pattern problem??? Anyone?

WolfmarsGirl,

I think I can answer the pattern "problem". Your link, incidentally, is an impressive presentation. Good job.

Please remember that the ugly stun gun burn on the face was likely a result of the gun being held for a prolonged time up against the skin -- perhaps for as much as 10 or 15 seconds. (The longer the gun's trigger is held the more severe is the resulting burn on the skin.) During this time, the 50,000 volts from the prongs of the stun gun would have caused the body to spontaneously quiver, causing the one electrode at that location to shudder ever so slightly, but enough to make 4 or 5 separate but closely-patterned rectangular burns.

I'm sure you have seen demonstrations on TV by police officers being voluntarily shocked by a stun gun. They sometimes involuntarily flop like a fish out of water as the electrical current passes through their bodies. My guess is that even an unconscious body would vibrate from the electrical current, causing the stun gun to move ever so slightly even though it is pressed tightly against the skin.

JMO

 

[gaia]

Nah, no stun gun. The idea almost borders on "silly" to me. :crazy:

 

[BlueCrab]

Nah, no stun gun. The idea almost borders on "silly" to me. :crazy:

gaia,

Sorry, but there is nothing silly about the idea that the injuries on JonBenet are from a stun gun. Please forget your theory and look at the evidence yourself. They are obvious and right there in the autopsy photos for everyone to see for themselves.

If the tiny twin marks are the same SIZE as the prongs on a stun gun; if the the tiny twin marks are the same DISTANCE APART as the prongs on a stun gun; and if the tiny twin marks are the same SHAPE as the prongs on a stun gun; then the tiny twin marks are likely from a stun gun.

Dr. John Meyer, the only forensic pathologist who had the opportunity to study and measure the injuries on the body itself, says the marks on JonBenet are consistent with stun gun injuries.

Dr. Robert Deters, the forensic pathologist who examined a murdered baby who had been stungunned, says the marks on JonBenet are consistent with stun gun injuries.

Dr. Michael Doberson, who helped solve a murder by diagnosing the injuries on a corpse as being from a stun gun, and is considered the nation's leading authority on stun gun injuries, says the marks on JonBenet are consistent with stun gun injuries.

JMO

 

[UKGuy]

gaia,

Sorry, but there is nothing silly about the idea that the injuries on JonBenet are from a stun gun. Please forget your theory and look at the evidence yourself. They are obvious and right there in the autopsy photos for everyone to see for themselves.

If the tiny twin marks are the same SIZE as the prongs on a stun gun; if the the tiny twin marks are the same DISTANCE APART as the prongs on a stun gun; and if the tiny twin marks are the same SHAPE as the prongs on a stun gun; then the tiny twin marks are likely from a stun gun.

Dr. John Meyer, the only forensic pathologist who had the opportunity to study and measure the injuries on the body itself, says the marks on JonBenet are consistent with stun gun injuries.

Dr. Robert Deters, the forensic pathologist who examined a murdered baby who had been stungunned, says the marks on JonBenet are consistent with stun gun injuries.

Dr. Michael Doberson, who helped solve a murder by diagnosing the injuries on a corpse as being from a stun gun, and is considered the nation's leading authority on stun gun injuries, says the marks on JonBenet are consistent with stun gun injuries.

JMO

Stating that something is "consistent with" is not the same as saying "caused with" All these Doctors are simply not discounting that in the universe of skin marks and abrasions, that those on JonBenet could have been been caused by a Stun Gun. The marks on JonBenet may be consistent with many other objects or artifacts from the Ramsay household.
Not least Patsy's rings as proposed by another member.

 

[BlueCrab]

Stating that something is "consistent with" is not the same as saying "caused with" All these Doctors are simply not discounting that in the universe of skin marks and abrasions, that those on JonBenet could have been been caused by a Stun Gun. The marks on JonBenet may be consistent with many other objects or artifacts from the Ramsay household.
Not least Patsy's rings as proposed by another member.

UKGuy,

Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary:

consistent: "marked by harmonious regularity or steady continuity : free from irregularity, variation, or contradiction"

The forensic pathologists said the marks on JonBenet are consistent (free from irregularity, variation, or contradiction) with the kinds of injuries that a STUN GUN would inflict, not a ring nor any other object.

The forensic experts may or may not say the same thing about a cluster ring, but I don't think they would agree with you simply because cluster rings don't burn the skin. Stun guns do that, not rings.

JMO

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary:

consistent: "marked by harmonious regularity or steady continuity : free from irregularity, variation, or contradiction"

The forensic pathologists said the marks on JonBenet are consistent (free from irregularity, variation, or contradiction) with the kinds of injuries that a STUN GUN would inflict, not a ring nor any other object.

The forensic experts may or may not say the same thing about a cluster ring, but I don't think they would agree with you simply because cluster rings don't burn the skin. Stun guns do that, not rings.

JMO

BlueCrab,

That something is consistent: "marked by harmonious regularity or steady continuity : free from irregularity, variation, or contradiction", tells you nothing abouts its veracity, factual correctness, or even if its actual existence!

The forensic experts were not asked to speculate upon other objects that they might consider were consistent with her injuries.

They did not state that her injuries were caused by a stun gun. These are clever guys so what they said, with an eye to any potential trial etc, was "Hey we cannot rule it out".

Any speculation about a stun gun should remain as such.

As Mr Spock might say: "Its logical Captain"