Was BR involved? #2

[BBB167893]

Doubting DP will mention JK's book

If he does, they'll trash it.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I didn't see the A&E special , but I have been thinking about this case for over a month now (20 years gone and all). With some distance from all the facts I know, I've tried to go back and look at it from the Ramsey's perspective. What if they really didn't have anything to do with Jonbenet's death? How must those poor parents have felt? But the minute I start to try to give them the benefit of the doubt...I remember the established facts of the case. I can't get past the fact that several handwriting experts believe Patsy wrote that ransom note (or that my own untrained eyes tell me the same thing). I can't get past the fact that John claims Jonbenet fell asleep in the car, and he carried her upstairs, taking off her coat...the same coat that was later found in the car. I can't get past all the lies concerning Burke. I can't get past the fact that on Dec. 17, Patsy tried to call Jonbenet's pediatrician 3 times in the span of 15 minutes, but didn't recall having made that call at all, or why she was so desperate to get ahold of him. There are the BIG inconsistencies in the Ramsey's account of events, and then there are the small things that nag at me. Taken as a whole...there is just no way I can logically conclude that someone broke into that house and killed that child. There were 3 people in that house the night/morning that Jonbenet was murdered...and I think all 3 of them know what happened. Whatever DID happen...no one was ever made to be accountable for the death of this precious child, and that's what makes it impossible for me to ever look at either John or Patsy Ramsey with sympathy. Maybe that's wrong, but that's how I feel. Even to this day, 20 years later.

 

[sloane7777]

I'm still in the BDI camp, the only thing that really throws me off is the fact that the autopsy says the blow was after the strangulation not before , I cant reconcile that to this theory ? help?

 

[Madeleine74]

Here's the question every case follower needs to ask themselves:

IF this started out as an accident -- stemming from a moment of rage by someone within the family, can you ever forgive this family?

- IF it was Patsy who dealt that blow, she's dead and gone of a horrible cancer. What more can anyone do? She's facing her Karma.

- IF it was Burke who dealt that blow, what do you think should happen to him? (A 9 yr old wouldn't have been prosecuted back in 1996).

So realistically, unless you think JR himself killed JBR, there's no "justice" to be had for the fatal blow, which experts said is what ultimately would have killed her even before the garrotte.

So in the end... can you forgive?

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Here's the question every case follower needs to ask themselves:

IF this started out as an accident -- stemming from a moment of rage by someone within the family, can you ever forgive this family?

- IF it was Patsy who dealt that blow, she's dead and gone of a horrible cancer. What more can anyone do? She's facing her Karma.

- IF it was Burke who dealt that blow, what do you think should happen to him? (A 9 yr old wouldn't have been prosecuted back in 1996).

So realistically, unless you think JR himself killed JBR, there's no "justice" to be had for the fatal blow, which experts said is what ultimately would have killed her even before the garrotte.

So in the end... can you forgive?

I could forgive if it were an accident. But covering up an accident by violating that child in such a horrible, inhumane way? Nope. That is not worthy of forgiveness. IMO.

 

[madeleine]

Here's the question every case follower needs to ask themselves:

IF this started out as an accident -- stemming from a moment of rage by someone within the family, can you ever forgive this family?

- IF it was Patsy who dealt that blow, she's dead and gone of a horrible cancer. What more can anyone do? She's facing her Karma.

- IF it was Burke who dealt that blow, what do you think should happen to him? (A 9 yr old wouldn't have been prosecuted back in 1996).

So realistically, unless you think JR himself killed JBR, there's no "justice" to be had for the fatal blow, which experts said is what ultimately would have killed her even before the garrotte.

So in the end... can you forgive?

JR the narcissist would never agree to live under the umbrella of suspicion only because Patsy lost it one night.I cant believe that.Maybe I can believe that they both sacrificed themselves to protect their son, understandable.And I could forgive that.I could also forgive a confused angry 9 year old.

 

[DatelineFan]

Agreed, 100%. I wonder if these people are scared of John's contacts, too. I can just imagine John saying, "If I could do that to someone I love, imagine what I can do to someone YOU love." Brr.

Damn. That sends chills up my spine. Yikes, good point!

 

[reintarnation]

JR the narcissist would never agree to live under the umbrella of suspicion only because Patsy lost it one night.I cant believe that.Maybe I can believe that they both sacrificed themselves to protect their son, understandable.And I could forgive that.I could also forgive a confused angry 9 year old.

From a narcissistic / public image perspective , would JR have wanted to live with people knowing he married that woman and fathered children with her? Or, is it possible that he felt some modicum of sympathy for her ("It was really just an accident, I swear!") or that she blackmailed him ("I made it look like you did it, and I'll tell people that, and they'll believe me over you!")? Considering those questions, I am very open to JR going along with it if PDI.

But you're right - both of them protecting Burke makes sense, or even better sense when it comes to motivation for a cover up. The only thing I can't get over, though, in regard to BDI and JR's and PR's behavior, is how distant they were on 12/26 and the days following. Parents cling to each other after the death of a child, and you would think PR and JR would have done the same even in BDI scenario (or especially in BDI scenario). But there was noticeable distance and coldness between them, which might indicate reluctant cooperation of some sort (because one did it and the other participated or was at least complicit in the cover up).

 

[reintarnation]

I didn't see the A&E special , but I have been thinking about this case for over a month now (20 years gone and all). With some distance from all the facts I know, I've tried to go back and look at it from the Ramsey's perspective. What if they really didn't have anything to do with Jonbenet's death? How must those poor parents have felt? But the minute I start to try to give them the benefit of the doubt...I remember the established facts of the case. I can't get past the fact that several handwriting experts believe Patsy wrote that ransom note (or that my own untrained eyes tell me the same thing). I can't get past the fact that John claims Jonbenet fell asleep in the car, and he carried her upstairs, taking off her coat...the same coat that was later found in the car. I can't get past all the lies concerning Burke. I can't get past the fact that on Dec. 17, Patsy tried to call Jonbenet's pediatrician 3 times in the span of 15 minutes, but didn't recall having made that call at all, or why she was so desperate to get ahold of him. There are the BIG inconsistencies in the Ramsey's account of events, and then there are the small things that nag at me. Taken as a whole...there is just no way I can logically conclude that someone broke into that house and killed that child. There were 3 people in that house the night/morning that Jonbenet was murdered...and I think all 3 of them know what happened. Whatever DID happen...no one was ever made to be accountable for the death of this precious child, and that's what makes it impossible for me to ever look at either John or Patsy Ramsey with sympathy. Maybe that's wrong, but that's how I feel. Even to this day, 20 years later.

I really appreciated this post, MK. I struggle with this myself. There is always a part of me that wants to believe IDI, but the evidence won't let me. Sometimes I have a moment watching PR or JR where I think maybe we have had tunnel vision and have not been sympathetic enough. What if that was me and my daughter? But then all those little confounding pieces of evidence bubble to the surface, and you realize there just is no way that IDI.

 

[Madeleine74]

JR the narcissist would never agree to live under the umbrella of suspicion only because Patsy lost it one night.I cant believe that.

At the time of the staging they had no idea they would "live under the umbrella of suspicion." They thought their fabricated story & the scene would be enough. Once they headed down that road there was no turning back. They had locked themselves into that story and couldn't very well admit what really happened. And, if it was BR who actually dealt that blow, the R's desperate plan to protect BR also made it impossible for them to admit anything else.

 

[reintarnation]

I'm still in the BDI camp, the only thing that really throws me off is the fact that the autopsy says the blow was after the strangulation not before , I cant reconcile that to this theory ? help?

The autopsy report listed JBR's cause of death as "asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma." My understanding is that for a period it was uncertain whether the head blow or strangulation occurred first. Subsequent discussion and ME findings concluded that the head blow was the first injury and incapacitated JBR. She would have eventually died from that injury and likely would have appeared all but lifeless. JBR continued to live for approximately 45 - 120 minutes after the head blow until strangulation ultimately killed her.

What I'm not certain of is if this conclusion is universally accepted as factual or if it is expert opinion.

 

[Madeleine74]

I assume no one intended for JBR to be killed that night/morning. But the head blow, which we know came first, was swift and was either a moment of rage or some kind of 'accident.'

Let's say it might have been BR: my brother had moments of rage against me when we were little--one time he kicked me and my bottom teeth came partway through under my lip. Lots of blood (no stitches). His displaced rage was for some really good reasons I understand now, but when I was 7 and he was 8 I certainly saw no reason for it. Violence is not acceptable, but let's not pretend it doesn't happen between young siblings--we know it can and does. No, not to the level of that skull fracture, not usually.

For me, the sympathy I muster comes at the point of the head blow and then what must have been "OMG, what have I/ what has he/ done? What do we do now? I/he killed her!" PR must have thought JBR was dead; she certainly would have been unconscious.

Now what? This moment of rage or accident cannot be undone. There's no fixing it, no going back in time.

That level of desperation is something I can find sympathy for.

The instinct to try and save what's left of the family, to protect oneself or whoever did it, would be natural.

However, the way PR & JR went about it, the plan, the execution of that plan, the lies that hurt other people and the ripples out from there... that's what I think has created most of the hatred. It's the BIG LIE that mushroomed and grew and grew and grew beyond anyone's possible imagination. An accident can be accepted and forgiven, eventually. Lying and lying and lying is the ongoing wound.

 

[sloane7777]

The autopsy report listed JBR's cause of death as "asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma." My understanding is that for a period it was uncertain whether the head blow or strangulation occurred first. Subsequent discussion and ME findings concluded that the head blow was the first injury and incapacitated JBR. She would have eventually died from that injury and likely would have appeared all but lifeless. JBR continued to live for approximately 45 - 120 minutes after the head blow until strangulation ultimately killed her.

What I'm not certain of is if this conclusion is universally accepted as factual or if it is expert opinion.

Thank you , on the ID special it stated that the autopsy concluded that the blow was AFTER the strangulation I wonder if she was actually strangled a little by hand or cord , then the blow , then the finish off with the cord ? that would make sense to me as well maybe if it was injury on injury it clouded it a bit and they really couldn't tell which was first

 

[Foreign Faction]

From a narcissistic / public image perspective , would JR have wanted to live with people knowing he married that woman and fathered children with her? Or, is it possible that he felt some modicum of sympathy for her ("It was really just an accident, I swear!") or that she blackmailed him ("I made it look like you did it, and I'll tell people that, and they'll believe me over you!")? Considering those questions, I am very open to JR going along with it if PDI.

But you're right - both of them protecting Burke makes sense, or even better sense when it comes to motivation for a cover up. The only thing I can't get over, though, in regard to BDI and JR's and PR's behavior, is how distant they were on 12/26 and the days following. Parents cling to each other after the death of a child, and you would think PR and JR would have done the same even in BDI scenario (or especially in BDI scenario). But there was noticeable distance and coldness between them, which might indicate reluctant cooperation of some sort (because one did it and the other participated or was at least complicit in the cover up).

Exactly, I agree wholeheartedly, especially as a diehard BDI believer. NO FRIGGIN WAY JR deals with all of this *advertiser censored* if Patsy did it. NO WAY. Simple as that.

 

[Foreign Faction]

Agree totally with that. IDI not only doesn't make sense logically, it just couldn't have happened that way when you examine ALL the facts thoroughly.

 

[reintarnation]

Thank you , on the ID special it stated that the autopsy concluded that the blow was AFTER the strangulation I wonder if she was actually strangled a little by hand or cord , then the blow , then the finish off with the cord ? that would make sense to me as well maybe if it was injury on injury it clouded it a bit and they really couldn't tell which was first

I believe that is the rerun doc with Barbara Walters, circa 2011? It includes a plethora of inaccurate information posed as facts. In that one they include footage of Lou Smit from a much earlier documentary stating that the head blow couldn't have happened first or else JBR would have bled more. That's just conjecture on his part, and I don't believe it was the accepted order of events for very long.

 

[Tadpole12]

I'm still in the BDI camp, the only thing that really throws me off is the fact that the autopsy says the blow was after the strangulation not before , I cant reconcile that to this theory ? help?

iirc during one of the 'interrogations the Rs were asked
if a weight might have been dropped on JBR's head.

 

[Madeleine74]

I've not seen a verified autopsy report that specifies strangulation BEFORE blow to the head.

Do you have a verified source for that? (not the A&E special, as I don't think they had the info correct).

 

[WhoKnowsWhat]

I was thinking about this case earlier today. And I was thinking about it from the angle of the HUGE LIE that was told and then the resulting burden that created, far, far beyond what the parents could ever imagine.

Put aside the horror of the crime (or accident) itself for just a second. Now imagine trying to create and then continue on with the BIG LIE. It grows bigger and bigger and wider. It takes on a life of its own. They can never ever tell the truth about that night. It's too late. They did all that staging and coverup and are locked into this bogus story forever.

I say 'forever,' because to admit what really happened would be far more than they would ever do. PR went to her grave with that lie. It probably contributed to her demise, that's a dark thing to carry around. JR... well...he too knows the truth (whatever it is). That is a burden that he too will take to his grave. There will always be millions of people who know they lied, know it was a coverup. I don't care how much support and butt-kissing they've gotten, they KNOW the truth and it's awful. They can hide it but they can never escape it. That's a whole lot of bad ju-ju and bad Karma. And BR, he will forever be branded by this case too. He can never tell the real story, not if he's going to protect the family name and legacy.

That's a burden I'd never want and IMO that's a certain kind of Hell all on its own.

And also, his other children and son-in-law know the whole lie isn't the truth. They may not know the truth, and probably don't, but they must be mighty uneasy. JR told Stuart Long, finance of Melissa, that he found JB at 11:00 am. What did they think of the pitiful Reward the R's offered. I would be very ashamed to be associated with the R's and would NOT want anyone to know I was related to them. And I would NOT want my children around JR or PR.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

From a narcissistic / public image perspective , would JR have wanted to live with people knowing he married that woman and fathered children with her? Or, is it possible that he felt some modicum of sympathy for her ("It was really just an accident, I swear!") or that she blackmailed him ("I made it look like you did it, and I'll tell people that, and they'll believe me over you!")? Considering those questions, I am very open to JR going along with it if PDI.

But you're right - both of them protecting Burke makes sense, or even better sense when it comes to motivation for a cover up. The only thing I can't get over, though, in regard to BDI and JR's and PR's behavior, is how distant they were on 12/26 and the days following. Parents cling to each other after the death of a child, and you would think PR and JR would have done the same even in BDI scenario (or especially in BDI scenario). But there was noticeable distance and coldness between them, which might indicate reluctant cooperation of some sort (because one did it and the other participated or was at least complicit in the cover up).

Perhaps there was trouble in the marriage prior to Jonbenet's death.