Was Burke Involved? # 4

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That's essentially what they DID do, Sparko96!

Follow me on this: that whole "beheading" jazz was meant to suggest Islamic terror. Even before 9/11 it was common knowledge that they behead people in places like Saudi Arabia. I just don't think they knew how to spell any of those names. Is it Hezbollah or Hizb'ullah? is it Osama bin Laden or Usama bnin Laden? Is it Khaddafy, or Qaddafi? See what I'm getting at?

But I think you've hit on something I don't think gets enough attention, Sparko96: the RL seems to be an attempt to play on popular fears, both of kidnappers and terrorists. And that's not new, is it? Susan Smith blamed a black man in the South (It's only a miracle she confessed before some innocent black man got his head broken). Charles Stuart blamed a black man. Darlie Routier blamed a home invader. OJ Simpson blamed South American drug cartel assassins, a la Scarface. See the pattern? All guilty people.

I completely agree; should have said "effectively blame terrorists." By 1998, so much was common wisdom, she could have written an execution note. But I do think BDI. In such a way that he crossed the Rubicon of savagery that caused this charade to happen.


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Do you have a medical link to support this? I'm not following your post at all.


What part is confusing? The autonomic nervous system can disfunction in some ways but not others, or in some cases dis function across the board.

Just look up autonomic dysfunction.
 
Here is a link to help explain it:
http://www.healthline.com/health/autonomic-dysfunction#Overview1

Autonomic dysfunction develops when the nerves of the ANS are damaged. This condition is also called autonomic neuropathy or dysautonomia. Autonomic dysfunction can range from mild to life-threatening. It can affect part of the ANS or the entire ANS. Sometimes, the conditions that cause damage are temporary and reversible. Others are chronic and may continue to worsen over time.

My point was she could have had damage to her ANS from the blow to the head and subsequent swelling. Signs of this could inched changes in breathing, heart rate, digestion, and body temp. If her breathing was slowed and her heart rate slowed after the blow making her appear dead, this would be the result of the autonomic nervous system being effected. So we can speculate that if damage here was effecting breathing and heart rate, it likely had an effect on her digestion as well.
 
akh,
Correct, this is also essentially Kolar's theory. To make sense of it all you have to partition any RDI theory into two parts, i.e. BDI and the Parents contribution, personally it works for me.

Why create a homicide out of an accident, where is the percentage in that? Why not dial 911 and get JonBenet immediate medical assistance?

Why would the parents assist each other both before and after JonBenet's death, why would the anonymous third party in the True Bills be charged with Child Abuse as well as Murder in the first degree?

Answers on a postcard to Mr Spitz, care of CBS!

.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought they were to have been charged with child abuse/neglect and obstructing and hindering the INVESTIGATION OF a homicide, not charged with the homicide itself.
 
All very plausible IMHO and it all fits. I'm right there with you on your thinking.
The one thing the CBS show did was push the idea there was an argument over her taking a piece of pineapple from him. Which could be true but so could about 1000 other things so I don't know why they pushed that so much and I don't recall any caveats. Maybe they know he was extremely bothered by anyone touching his food so they pieced it together that an unfinished bowl of pineapple and her with a small amount of pineapple in her system could be explained by her touching his food. Now he could no longer eat it, explaining the unfinished bowl. But if that is the case, they never really mentioned these type of issues (that I recall).
And of course something like this could simply be the straw that broke the camel's back. I get the vibe in those early interviews that her being gone really wasn't a problem for him. So he could've been thinking about things like that knife stab he demonstrated or that hit on the head for some time. And for whatever reason, the moment arrived on that fateful night.

I think it's even possible he'd already made the 'garrote' and was planning this. I've opined elsewhere that maybe the garrote did come first and she struggled more than he expected so he hit her with the flashlight (or some other object) to make her quit struggling. At which point she falls unconscious/dying and he goes about being curious and creepy creating the SA aspects of the case, and at some point finishes the job with the garrote if need be or for certainty (if it happened a 2nd time at all) and the poking with the train tracks.

But mainly my point in my thinking is, even if the medical experts want to debate the order of the headblow and the garrote, I think it could still be explained either way. As long as it was him doing it all versus thinking about the garrote as a piece of the coverup then it still would allow the pieces to fit and not require the family to abuse the corpse of their daughter or even 'finish her off' versus calling for 911 for help.

The pineapple was key. Working backwards, it was digesting from almost the blow to the head. She ate only one piece. Her snatching might have been retaliation for the poop smears. This enraged Burke because he had been trying to control JBR. In a flash he grabbed her collar. She got away screaming. And he picked up the nearest heavy object and clocked her. There was probably minuscule bone fragment evidence near the table, but BPD wasn't looking there. He then exacted complete revenge and almost dared his parents to try do anything about it. And the dog barking in the night: BR's reaction to the photo of the bowl. A drugged-up Patsy not reacting to the fight, ignoring the children as was her specialty.


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Aside from the three known photos of the Ramsey's Christmas morning, ( BR and JBR opening gifts, PR and JBR forcing smiles and the one of JBR posed happily in front of the wrapped gifts and new bike), are there any other pics of that morning? It seems odd that there's no Brother and Sister posing together later on dressed in Christmas finery posing with the favorite gifts.

Reason I bring this up is that I am starting to wonder if a fight had brewed up in the morning over the amount of gifts. BR looks at his pile vs his Sister and thinks, "she's got more...as always!" I know that JR made the excuse of having let the batteries die in the movie camera but for a person as hung up on appearances and such as Patsy, it strikes me as odd that she hadn't been on top of that detail. After all, preserving the image in film and photos were a big deal to her!

So now I wonder if the lack of photos/video that we know of is because it was already going off with BR. He's sulky and mad. JBR is upset, Mom is upset. This went on all day and finally came to a head that night.

He's eating HER pineapple. Whatcha gonna do? She nabs some and darts away. He clobbrers her.
Merry Christmas.
 
The pineapple was key. Working backwards, it was digesting from almost the blow to the head. She ate only one piece. Her snatching might have been retaliation for the poop smears. This enraged Burke because he had been trying to control JBR. In a flash he grabbed her collar. She got away screaming. And he picked up the nearest heavy object and clocked her. There was probably minuscule bone fragment evidence near the table, but BPD wasn't looking there. He then exacted complete revenge and almost dared his parents to try do anything about it. And the dog barking in the night: BR's reaction to the photo of the bowl. A drugged-up Patsy not reacting to the fight, ignoring the children as was her specialty.


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How could there be bone fragment evidence if the skin was not broken at the site of her head injury?
 
All very plausible IMHO and it all fits. I'm right there with you on your thinking.
The one thing the CBS show did was push the idea there was an argument over her taking a piece of pineapple from him. Which could be true but so could about 1000 other things so I don't know why they pushed that so much and I don't recall any caveats. Maybe they know he was extremely bothered by anyone touching his food so they pieced it together that an unfinished bowl of pineapple and her with a small amount of pineapple in her system could be explained by her touching his food. Now he could no longer eat it, explaining the unfinished bowl. But if that is the case, they never really mentioned these type of issues (that I recall).
And of course something like this could simply be the straw that broke the camel's back. I get the vibe in those early interviews that her being gone really wasn't a problem for him. So he could've been thinking about things like that knife stab he demonstrated or that hit on the head for some time. And for whatever reason, the moment arrived on that fateful night.

I think it's even possible he'd already made the 'garrote' and was planning this. I've opined elsewhere that maybe the garrote did come first and she struggled more than he expected so he hit her with the flashlight (or some other object) to make her quit struggling. At which point she falls unconscious/dying and he goes about being curious and creepy creating the SA aspects of the case, and at some point finishes the job with the garrote if need be or for certainty (if it happened a 2nd time at all) and the poking with the train tracks.

But mainly my point in my thinking is, even if the medical experts want to debate the order of the headblow and the garrote, I think it could still be explained either way. As long as it was him doing it all versus thinking about the garrote as a piece of the coverup then it still would allow the pieces to fit and not require the family to abuse the corpse of their daughter or even 'finish her off' versus calling for 911 for help.

If she'd been choked first, there would be her own DNA under her fingernails as well as defensive marks around her throat, from trying to pull the cord off. There weren't any. She was unconscious when the cord was applied, and never resisted it.
 
If you visit acandyrose.com you will see the autopsy photos. Her skin was flexible enough to stretch, and not be broken by the blow. It was still hard enough to punch out a rectangular piece of skull under the skin.
 
If she'd been choked first, there would be her own DNA under her fingernails as well as defensive marks around her throat, from trying to pull the cord off. There weren't any. She was unconscious when the cord was applied, and never resisted it.

But there are some 'experts' that argue there are defensive marks. So just as I was saying about any dueling medical examiners on the issue of whether the blow came before the strangulation or not, the gist of the theory, that BDI, still works even if someone was to side with a ME that says there are defensive marks. IOW, defensive marks doesn't rule out BDI, nor do the lack of them rule him out either. The evidence, even if looked at differently, still makes it possible and even plausible he did it all.
 
But there are some 'experts' that argue there are defensive marks. So just as I was saying about any dueling medical examiners on the issue of whether the blow came before the strangulation or not, the gist of the theory, that BDI, still works even if someone was to side with a ME that says there are defensive marks. IOW, defensive marks doesn't rule out BDI, nor do the lack of them rule him out either. The evidence, even if looked at differently, still makes it possible and even plausible he did it all.

I see what you mean, but those "experts" would be wrong, so what is the point of entertaining their theories? It's like giving Smit credit for something when he was SO WRONG about the stun gun marks. No point in doing so. Just spreads misinformation.
 
All of the circumstantial evidence in the case applies to all three surviving occupants of the house except the bowl of pineapples and the note. The bowl is only linked to BR and PR. And the note is only linked to PR....and its the note...

As Lt. Cmdr. Philip Francis Queeg said when investigating a "crime" Ahh, but the strawberries that's... that's where I had them. They laughed at me and made jokes but I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt and with... geometric logic...

My "Strawberries" is the note. You can't do this crime without the note. And you can only get the note with PR. She was a stage mom and she clearly was the stage manager of this crime scene. JR might not know the truth of who killed JBR. Could denial be what he is relying on. We know how powerful it can be. What if PR denied even to him that she wrote the note and he chose to believe her? Perhaps not. But what if BR has a vague memory of getting in a fight with his sister, but his parents convinced him that was not the cause. Denial is a very powerful defense mechanism. I do think JR knows most if not all of it. There was a quote attributed to JAR that the killer deserved forgiveness that makes me think JR told JAR what happened. It's the note..that's where I had them.
 
IMO the forgiveness quote just reflects JAR's Christian upbringing. The teaching is to forgive trespasses against you. Punishment is for others to decide. It doesn't mean he doesn't want justice for his step sister, only that carrying around hate in his own heart is not helpful in the long run.

Matthew 6:14-15 ESV
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

JMO on the forgiveness quote
 
If she'd been choked first, there would be her own DNA under her fingernails as well as defensive marks around her throat, from trying to pull the cord off. There weren't any. She was unconscious when the cord was applied, and never resisted it.

They did find her own DNA under her finger nails as well as unknown DNA per PMPT IIRC
 
Thanks, that's pretty close to the dimensions that I used but I didn't have nylon cord.

Since you think this was staging, how about a link to a post where you describe how you think she was actually strangled.
Johnjay:

I saved answering your post until I had time to give it the answer it deserves. I’ll give you a link at the bottom to a post where I laid out how I think the major injuries occurred. But first, let me tell you what I feel are the important points that are sometimes either misinterpreted or given too little significance.

You’ve probably heard several insiders say something that is contradicted by what we can see in photographic evidence. Arndt, Smit, Wecht, and I-don’t-remember-who-all-else have said something about the cord having been “wrapped around her neck twice” or that she was “strangled twice.” But the autopsy photo shows the cord only wrapped once and tied very tightly at the back of her neck. That “twice wrapped” idea comes from the final resting place of the cord in the area that formed a furrow and the white line that is visible several inches below it. That white line is common enough in some strangulations that there even exists a term for it -- albeit somewhat obscure. It’s called an “argent line.” It forms during a strangulation when a cord or rope is used on a victim until they have died and the blanching phase has set in. The reason for this is that without blood circulation, any skin surface with pressure on it having the blood in the outer capillary bed pressed out doesn’t have fresh blood return after the pressure is removed. If investigators see this on a corpse, even though the ligature has been removed and hidden or taken away from the scene, they know that the victim died from strangulation.

But the ligature on JonBenet’s neck had the ligature remaining and it was in a different location from where it originally strangled her. Additionally there were petechial hemorrhages (noted by the ME and visible in photos) between the two locations. These are the same petechiae that some point to as evidence of fingernail marks where they are grouped together. But the grouping patterns (agmination) do not resemble known fingernail marks that are obvious in available photos. An explanation for all these things can be found in the book Pathology of Neck Injury, by Peter Vanezis. In it is the following passage:

"It is not unusual in homicidal ligature strangulation to find that there is more than one ligature mark, each of varying intensity and crossing each other, in parallel or at an angle to each other. Together with such an appearance, one quite commonly sees abrasions caused by movement of a ligature across the neck."


Does this not describe exactly what is seen on JonBenet’s neck? This accounts for the “areas of petechial hemorrhage and abrasion encompassing an area measuring approximately 3x2 inches” mentioned in the AR.

But the white argent line doesn’t show up in the photo of the back of her neck. It is very prominent in the front and it goes in an upward angle toward the back. It could be that the reason it doesn’t show up in the back is because it converges with and disappears into the ligature furrow, or it could be because the cord was pulled away from her neck in the back when she died. If the latter is the reason, it would be the well-known inverted “V” typically found in suspensions. The upward angle itself is also typical in suspensions. I believe this white line is from the initial strangulation and is what killed her. It indicates that the cord was around her neck in that position for a period of time after death during the blanching phase of postmortem changes. But it wasn’t there long enough for a furrow to have been formed which occurs over a period of hours after death while the pressure of the cord compresses the underlying flesh and swelling occurs around it.

Another thing I feel is important that people tend to overlook is the fraying at some of the cord ends. That type of nylon cord frays when it is cut while under tension. The more tension there is, the more fraying occurs. Look at the end of the short end of the cord around her neck and compare it to the cord ends of the section that tied her wrists together. Especially considering that the wrist cord didn’t really restrict movement of her arms and only serves (along with the tape over her lips) to make it appear she had been restrained and silenced by an intruder, do you think both pieces of cord might have been only one section originally and was cut while it was being pulled?

These and other things we know about are explained by what I believe happened. I haven’t seen or heard anything that would contradict any of it. If you’ve bothered reading this lengthy post and still care to see how I think it happened, read the sequence of events that I believe happened in the following post. If you care to read more, there are links at the bottom to further reading on the subject which much of this is based on.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?226503-Explain-BDI-to-me&p=9981961#post9981961



(Good and decent people are confounded by what appears to them to be pure evil, and when confronted with it their best defense is to deny its existence -- especially when it seems to exist in the home of other good and decent people.)
 
If she'd been choked first, there would be her own DNA under her fingernails as well as defensive marks around her throat, from trying to pull the cord off. There weren't any. She was unconscious when the cord was applied, and never resisted it.

Or her hands were tied.
 
IMO the forgiveness quote just reflects JAR's Christian upbringing. The teaching is to forgive trespasses against you. Punishment is for others to decide. It doesn't mean he doesn't want justice for his step sister, only that carrying around hate in his own heart is not helpful in the long run.

Matthew 6:14-15 ESV
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

JMO on the forgiveness quote

That could be true, but even christians would want a sexual perverted child killer be caught before we forgave him. If he already knew who she or he was then maybe you go right for forgiveness. just a thought.
 
That could be true, but even christians would want a sexual perverted child killer be caught before we forgave him. If he already knew who she or he was then maybe you go right for forgiveness. just a thought.

imo the forgiveness is given no matter who the killer is and whether in jail or unsolved. Seven times seventy. It's not about the killer it's about your own well being


We must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love. There is some good in the worst of us and some evil in the best of us. When we discover this, we are less prone to hate our enemies.

Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
If you visit acandyrose.com you will see the autopsy photos. Her skin was flexible enough to stretch, and not be broken by the blow. It was still hard enough to punch out a rectangular piece of skull under the skin.

Seems impossible, yow. I have had trivial head injuries which bled snd bled. So much for the fragments. Wonder if damage to flashlight then at high magnification?


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