Was Burke Involved? # 4

[Karinna]

thinking the same. Imo they concluded there is something fishy with the Ramseys version of events but had no clue who the Ramseys actually lied for. of course you can speculate that they would lie only for BR but its still only speculation

Yes exactly. I'm not sure we will ever really know the truth in this sad case. And i kind of get how the defense would of torn this case to shreds had it ever gone to trial.

 

[otg]

I thought the indictments were for both PR & JR for child abuse and being an accessory to murder? And there was no mention in the indictments as to who the actual person was that committed first degree murder? If as is stated by most that believe BR killed JBR then as the law states in CO. a child under the age of 10 would not be charged with murder because a child of that age would not act with intent to kill. So even if BR admitted to investigators he was the cause of his sister's death and they could charge him, then he still wouldn't have been charged with first degree murder if it was just a horrible accident but probably they would charge him with Manslaughter. So i don't necessarily think the GJ thought BR killed JB.

Burke could not be charged with anything, no matter how it happened. Not murder, not manslaughter, not wrongful death, not assault, not molestation, nothing. Being considered an "infant" in the eyes of Colorado law means that even though he might do something unlawful, he could not be held responsible and cannot be charged. An "infant" cannot even be considered a suspect," even it it were known that he/she committed what would otherwise be a crime.

 

[Tortoise]

otg do you have a link to your egg and wooden spoon test? to put up on the weapon thread. I was asked about it earlier and couldn't remember where I'd seen it. No worries if you can't.

 

[Karinna]

Burke could not be charged with anything, no matter how it happened. Not murder, not manslaughter, not wrongful death, not assault, not molestation, nothing. Being considered an "infant" in the eyes of Colorado law means that even though he might do something unlawful, he could not be held responsible and cannot be charged. An "infant" cannot even be considered a suspect," even it it were known that he/she committed what would otherwise be a crime.

I was using a hypothetical when i said that if it were possible that BR could of been charged because in some states a child of that age can be. And if it were possible and it was just a terrible accident then BR would not have been charged with premeditated first degree murder.

 

[madeleine]

I dunno... if it was BDI wouldnt they have told Bynum the truth?I am SURE he would have found a better solution for everyone than what actually happened after the crime.

 

[otg]

We haven't seen the other 14 pages of the GJ return on the charges but as far as we know, neither parent was charged with Murder in the First Degree, only felony child abuse and covering up for the murderer, knowing that the murderer committed the crime. If the GJ thought that one of the parents killed her and the other assisted in the cover up, but could not determine the actual killer, they could have and would have charged them both with the murder. I have seen this done and both went to prison after being convicted of murder.

What astounds me is that the parents knew that there was a danger in their home that posed a risk of death to JBR and did nothing about it.

Witnesses stated that JBR became quite clingy in the weeks leading up to her murder. Maybe BR was cycling through some bi-polar episodes unmedicated, and was showing increased violence towards JBR. Something tells me that meds were prescribed but were not used because of the stigma of mental illness that would take some of the shine off of the family. JMHO of course.

You are absolutely correct about the complicity statute, TeaTime. I posted the statute here for anyone who cares to read it:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?23827-Was-Burke-involved&p=10385869#post10385869


I also posted what I thought the TBs meant in light of the statutes here (again, for anyone who cares to read it):

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?23827-Was-Burke-involved&p=10385499#post10385499


(For everyone: When this forum had a software update, many older posts lost some of their formatting -- extra line breaks, URL links, etc.)

 

[otg]

otg do you have a link to your egg and wooden spoon test? to put up on the weapon thread. I was asked about it earlier and couldn't remember where I'd seen it. No worries if you can't.

I'll find it. I'm just now trying to catch up with all the posts over the past day.

 

[otg]

If I remember it right, otg, Mark Beckner said that the 45-90 minute timeframe was agreed on by just about all the pathologists and neuro-pathologists: Spitz was one, but Henry Lee, Ronald Wright and Tom Henry were some others.

I don't think he's ever mentioned any "agreement" amongst "just about all the pathologists and neuro-pathologists." Here's what he said in his AMA:

We know from the evidence she was hit in the head very hard with an unknown object, possibly a flashlight or similar type item. The blow knocked her into deep unconsciousness, which could have led someone to believe she was dead. The strangulation came 45 minutes to two hours after the head strike, based on the swelling on the brain. While the head wound would have eventually killed her, the strangulation actually did kill her. The rest of the scene we believe was staged, including the vaginal trauma, to make it look like a kidnapping/assault gone bad. I have avoided saying who I believe is responsible and let the facts speak for themselves. There are several viable theories.

http://extras.denverpost.com/jonbenetAMA.html


My point was that there is disagreement among the "experts," even to the point that some have said the strangulation came before the head blow. We can all decide for ourselves who to believe. For myself, the fact that Beckner has bought in to the 45-120 minute interval doesn't influence my opinion. Neither do I believe the vaginal trauma was staged or the Maglite caused the skull fractures.

 

[s(he) be(lie)ve(d)]

I dunno... if it was BDI wouldnt they have told Bynum the truth?I am SURE he would have found a better solution for everyone than what actually happened after the crime.[/QUOTE

]Hello Madeleine,

First let me say that I enjoy reading your opinions. I find that I agree with most of what you say. But here I think we disagree. JR was calling people long before PR was and I think Bynum was one of those calls. Someone from Lockheed Martin would be another one, but that's a different post I reckon.

http://www.oocities.org/capitolhill/senate/6502/6d/6deg.html

Six Degrees of Seperation

Mike Bynum, close personal friend of Patsy and John Ramsey (1, 2) and a founding partner of the law firm Chrisman, Bynum & Johnson. He specializes in business law. Bynum is an ex-prosecutor who used to work for Hunter (23), and is said to have advised the Ramseys to "lawyer up" shortly after the murder. He is responsible for choosing the politically connected firm of Haddon (16), Morgan (16) & Foreman (5). Although not an official part of the Ramsey defense team, Bynum has hosted meetings in his law office between them, the BPD, and the DA's team. There are also rumors that at least two members of his law firm are working as part of the Ramsey defense team, although they have not been publicly acknowledged as such. Bynum is a business partner of "Pasta" Jay Elowsky (14), along with John Ramseyand Lowell Elowsky (18). His law partner, John Stavely (22), is"Pasta" Jay's attorney and Stavely represented Elowsky in court during his baseball bat and DUI incidents.Another partner isByron Chrisman (29), who financed construction of the building in which the JonBenét Ramsey Children's Foundation Office is said to be located. Bynum was put in charge of the house when the Ramseys moved to Atlanta, and hosted ABC's Prime Time Live tour of the Ramsey's Boulder home with Diane Sawyer. He announced that the house had been purchased by a LLC (limited liability corporation) composed of friends of the Ramseys, but refused to say what friends were involved. It is speculated that he is a part of the LLC. Eventually, the groupplans to resell the house and donate any profits to the JonBenét Ramsey Children's Foundation.


I think Bynum knew everything before 911 was called and he still defends them to this day. Well anyway, I can go long and hard on my theory thats why I keep it mostly to myself. I look forward to reading more of your opinions and hope you find that site as interesting as I did.

 

[otg]

I think BR got a thrill out of making his mom go psycho. I think he enjoyed watching her suffer when JBR died. I can't forget that creepy smile. Not all murderers continue to murder. I think BR felt JBR stole his parents affection and he was jealous and full of anger. I think Christmas morning he didn't get what he wanted and brewed all day long. I think the White's noticed it too. O think they knew BR had problems. I think FW and PW have many of the answers. Something I found interesting while looking up statutes of limitations- "As such, the prosecutorial “clock” on most statutes of limitations will only run while the alleged perpetrator remains visible and in the state where the crime occurred. If the suspect is out of state or otherwise in hiding, the statutory clock will pause, and will resume running when and if the criminal reenters the state. This is to prevent criminals avoiding the consequences for serious crimes by simply running, hiding, and waiting out the authorities http://statelaws.findlaw.com/colorado-law/colorado-criminal-statute-of-limitations-laws.html

It's called "tolling." In Colorado, the SoL can be suspended for up to 5-years while a suspect is out of state:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...enet-Ramsey%92s-death&p=11954627#post11954627

The Ramseys could have been charged (indicted) for their true billed felonies until December of 2004.

 

[TeaTime]

You are absolutely correct about the complicity statute, TeaTime. I posted the statute here for anyone who cares to read it:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?23827-Was-Burke-involved&p=10385869#post10385869


I also posted what I thought the TBs meant in light of the statutes here (again, for anyone who cares to read it):

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?23827-Was-Burke-involved&p=10385499#post10385499


(For everyone: When this forum had a software update, many older posts lost some of their formatting -- extra line breaks, URL links, etc.)

otg - thank you for the Colorado statute and the case law - we are on the same page on this issue. IF the GJ thought that one of the parents killed JBR and the other covered it up, the GJ was no doubt instructed that they could charge BOTH with Murder int he First Degree. The GJ didn't but charged both with child abuse and, for the sake of space, being an accesory after the fact. It can only be interpreted one way which is that the parents were conspirators in covering the murder by BR.

 

[otg]

otg do you have a link to your egg and wooden spoon test? to put up on the weapon thread. I was asked about it earlier and couldn't remember where I'd seen it. No worries if you can't.

Okay, here's my "famous" :lol: egg demo:

[video=youtube;YgQqsStqaNc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgQqsStqaNc[/video]


Also, I'll give you a link to each of the numbered posts where you can follow how I arrived at what I think was the weapon. (As I mentioned in another post on a different thread, when WS forum had a software update, we lost a lot of the formatting. You'll have to c&p the links since the hotlinks were lost.)

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Fractures-The-Weapon&p=10636211#post10636211 (The egg demo was in Part-5.)

 

[Tortoise]

Thank you for doing that otg

 

[PositiveLight]

It's called "tolling." In Colorado, the SoL can be suspended for up to 5-years while a suspect is out of state:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...enet-Ramsey%92s-death&p=11954627#post11954627

The Ramseys could have been charged (indicted) for their true billed felonies until December of 2004.

Thank you so much OTG! You are a wealth of info!

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[PositiveLight]

his statements are conflicting and it would be more easier if there were transcripts , will keep looking. also some of his statements on dr. phil contradict things he said back when he was nine and eleven

I still have them recorded I believe. I will try to do a transcript. It might take me a while though but you are right we do need that transcribed. I will try to start on it tonight.

 

[BOESP]

Why would Pat kill her little Miss America when Burke was the actual Problem Child?

Because Patsy was on the verge of exhaustion and sensory overload. She acted in a reckless manner and the result was a grievous injury to JonBenet that snowballed. Call it an accident or call it loss of self control, I still lean toward PDI. I still lean toward a low velocity/high pressure head trauma (discussed elsewhere here in earlier threads).

On the other hand, statistically, John Ramsey is the most likely candidate.

The recent television specials have not convinced me Burke did it.

Whoever is guilty, JonBenet deserved to receive medical treatment and her parents are ultimately responsible for that not happening.

 

[BBB167893]

Because Patsy was on the verge of exhaustion and sensory overload. She acted in a reckless manner and the result was a grievous injury to JonBenet that snowballed. Call it an accident or call it loss of self control, I still lean toward PDI. I still lean toward a low velocity/high pressure head trauma (discussed elsewhere here in earlier threads).

On the other hand, statistically, John Ramsey is the most likely candidate.

The recent television specials have not convinced me Burke did it.

Whoever is guilty, JonBenet deserved to receive medical treatment and her parents are ultimately responsible for that not happening.

I'm still with you, BOESP. Anything Burke could have done, Patsy could have done.

 

[madeleine]

I still have them recorded I believe. I will try to do a transcript. It might take me a while though but you are right we do need that transcribed. I will try to start on it tonight.

that would be AWESOME thanks so much

 

[madeleine]

Because Patsy was on the verge of exhaustion and sensory overload. She acted in a reckless manner and the result was a grievous injury to JonBenet that snowballed. Call it an accident or call it loss of self control, I still lean toward PDI. I still lean toward a low velocity/high pressure head trauma (discussed elsewhere here in earlier threads).

On the other hand, statistically, John Ramsey is the most likely candidate.

The recent television specials have not convinced me Burke did it.

Whoever is guilty, JonBenet deserved to receive medical treatment and her parents are ultimately responsible for that not happening.

I feel you. I feel like I am back to zero.
I can rule out :
IDI pedo
IDI kidnapping for money that went wrong

My fav:
JDI
BDI
PDI

Not my fav but can't rule them out
PDI alone
IDI and Ramsey cover up
IDI revenge (pissed at JR)

 

[madeleine]

I dunno... if it was BDI wouldnt they have told Bynum the truth?I am SURE he would have found a better solution for everyone than what actually happened after the crime.[/QUOTE

]Hello Madeleine,

First let me say that I enjoy reading your opinions. I find that I agree with most of what you say. But here I think we disagree. JR was calling people long before PR was and I think Bynum was one of those calls. Someone from Lockheed Martin would be another one, but that's a different post I reckon.

http://www.oocities.org/capitolhill/senate/6502/6d/6deg.html

Six Degrees of Seperation

Mike Bynum, close personal friend of Patsy and John Ramsey (1, 2) and a founding partner of the law firm Chrisman, Bynum & Johnson. He specializes in business law. Bynum is an ex-prosecutor who used to work for Hunter (23), and is said to have advised the Ramseys to "lawyer up" shortly after the murder. He is responsible for choosing the politically connected firm of Haddon (16), Morgan (16) & Foreman (5). Although not an official part of the Ramsey defense team, Bynum has hosted meetings in his law office between them, the BPD, and the DA's team. There are also rumors that at least two members of his law firm are working as part of the Ramsey defense team, although they have not been publicly acknowledged as such. Bynum is a business partner of "Pasta" Jay Elowsky (14), along with John Ramseyand Lowell Elowsky (18). His law partner, John Stavely (22), is"Pasta" Jay's attorney and Stavely represented Elowsky in court during his baseball bat and DUI incidents.Another partner isByron Chrisman (29), who financed construction of the building in which the JonBenét Ramsey Children's Foundation Office is said to be located. Bynum was put in charge of the house when the Ramseys moved to Atlanta, and hosted ABC's Prime Time Live tour of the Ramsey's Boulder home with Diane Sawyer. He announced that the house had been purchased by a LLC (limited liability corporation) composed of friends of the Ramseys, but refused to say what friends were involved. It is speculated that he is a part of the LLC. Eventually, the groupplans to resell the house and donate any profits to the JonBenét Ramsey Children's Foundation.


I think Bynum knew everything before 911 was called and he still defends them to this day. Well anyway, I can go long and hard on my theory thats why I keep it mostly to myself. I look forward to reading more of your opinions and hope you find that site as interesting as I did.

I totally agree that some people were called before the 911 call was placed hence the missing phone records. I always speculated it could have been the lovely dr. Beuf or even a crime scene cleaner (might explain the dna) . JR had alot of connections. I definitely can agree that Bynum could have been called before as well.