Was Burke Involved # 5

[kanzz]

According to their statements, PR went upstairs to go and get ready for bed, but wasn't she in the same clothes than the night before at the time the police and friends arrived? I know some people argue that she put on the old clothes again. If she was indeed in the same clothes, what if she never went to bed that night? Let's speculate that she went upstairs and checked on JBR then went to sort out things for the trip, something then might happened that means she never actually got into bed that night?

BBM
Yes, she was in the same clothes that she wore to the dinner party at the Whites.

And didn't Priscilla White also state that PR's side of the bed appeared as though she did not sleep in it?

 

[icedtea4me]

*snip*One unanswered question is how did the flashlight get from upstairs on Christmas night to downstairs in the kitchen the next morning, given by JR's own words, all he had on was his underwear?

The obvious conclusion is that BR used the flashlight, since JR left it in his bedroom?



.

This would depend on whose dna was found to be on the flashlight.

 

[UKGuy]

This would depend on whose dna was found to be on the flashlight.

icedtea4me,
How about, BR's, JR's and PR's dna all being present?

.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

BBM
Yes, she was in the same clothes that she wore to the dinner party at the Whites.

And didn't Priscilla White also state that PR's side of the bed appeared as though she did not sleep in it?

In the recent Lifetime movie, Priscilla's character is shown noticing this the morning of the "kidnapping", and then she brings it up to Fleet in a later scene where she looks through the party photos from the night of the murder and realizes Patsy was wearing the same clothes the next morning.

I do not recall ever reading that anyone specifically stated that one side of the bed did not look slept in, but I always thought it looked that way in the crime scene photo. It's ambiguous though, the pic isn't very close. Do any of the recently released crime scene videos cover the parents' bedroom?




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[Meara]

Meara,
BR did not say on the DP show that his father followed him down after he snuck back downstairs.

He can claim this to be so at any point in the future.

BR stated plainly on the DP show that everyone was in their respective bedroom, now that explicitly includes JonBenet.

So BR is telling you something we did not know before, but was said by both JR and PR.

Another answer on the DP show illuminates, when asked did he eat the pineapple, BR said maybe, so I reckon this revision of previous version of events is simply LW, JR and BR getting their story straight, since they now know they might face deposition and interview.

So whats new is:

1. JR puts BR to bed using the flashlight.

2. BR returned back downstairs.

3. BR maybe ate pineapple.

One unanswered question is how did the flashlight get from upstairs on Christmas night to downstairs in the kitchen the next morning, given by JR's own words, all he had on was his underwear?

The obvious conclusion is that BR used the flashlight, since JR left it in his bedroom?
.

UKGuy,

Yeah yeah, thanks, I've got all that. If you follow the conversation you'll see that it was Tortoise in his/her post upthread at #35 who proposed the 'JR went back down later' scenario, and I have done my best to show why that doesn't work. Along the way andrew pointed out the variations in times cited in the different parents' statements. He's right, but my focus was that the sequence of movements/bedtimes reported, irrespective of precise times, is enough to rule out Tortoise's speculation. :scared:

Short version:

UKGuy: BR did not say on the DP show that his father followed him down after he snuck back downstairs.
PaMeara: No damn kidding!

 

[Cranberry]

this was from PR's 4/97 Interview

ST: So, were you in bed then, and I don’t want to put words in your mouth, by ten or 10:30 or what time, if you can reconstruct that, did you then go to bed?
PR: I was probably, probably in bed by then. Ten or 10:30
ST: Okay. And when you say. . .
PR: I can’t remember exactly.
ST: . . .John came to bed shortly thereafter, do you recall if that was 15 minutes or a half an hour?
PR: It was probably just a few minutes.
ST: Okay. You were still awake?
PR: I was, yeah, I could, was aware of him, you know, getting in bed, but . . .
ST: And are you a sound sleeper?
PR: Fairly.
ST; And prior to December 25th were you on any sort of sleeping medications?
PR: No.
ST: Any medications whatsoever? Other than vitamins or over the co8unter?
PR: No.
ST: Is John a fairly heavy sleeper?
PR: Yes, I would say, he snores (inaudible).
ST: When John gets up during the night on occasion is he does to use the bathroom, for example, does that awaken you? Are you aware of when John leaves the bed.
PR: Um hum, usually.
ST: And is John aware when you leave the bed?
PR: I don’t know if he’s aware when I leave or not?
ST: Okay. So on the night of the 25th at some point, Burke went to bed, it’s possible or likely that John checked on him and made sure that he was down . .
PR: Um hum.

 

[kanzz]

In the recent Lifetime movie, Priscilla's character is shown noticing this the morning of the "kidnapping", and then she brings it up to Fleet in a later scene where she looks through the party photos from the night of the murder and realizes Patsy was wearing the same clothes the next morning.

I do not recall ever reading that anyone specifically stated that one side of the bed did not look slept in, but I always thought it looked that way in the crime scene photo. It's ambiguous though, the pic isn't very close. Do any of the recently released crime scene videos cover the parents' bedroom?


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You're right. I guess I was remembering this from recent tv. Unfortunately, the crime scene photo isn't a very good pic, and I don't remember the 3rd floor being shown in any of the recent videos.

 

[BOBON]

I will leave that speculation to others for now. All I'm addressing at the moment is the question of whether the narrative we've been given allows for a scenario in which BR goes back downstairs to play after he thinks his parents have retired, and JR, who is in fact still up, goes downstairs to join him. And I'm arguing that it doesn't allow for that. Is such a scenario possible? Yes. But nothing in the narrative given supports it.

Well, going by the statment from the Deposition it was mentioned
"A. I went downstairs to get Burke in
2 bed. He was putting together a little plastic toy
3 that he had gotten for Christmas. I helped him
4 finish it so he could get off to bed. And we
5 did that, and then I went to bed myself.
Patsy was in bed before I went to bed"


That's already contradicting. Especially if one considers that BR said in the Dr Phil
Interview that he went downstairs to play with his toy after everyone was asleep.

 

[ElleElle]

In the recent Lifetime movie, Priscilla's character is shown noticing this the morning of the "kidnapping", and then she brings it up to Fleet in a later scene where she looks through the party photos from the night of the murder and realizes Patsy was wearing the same clothes the next morning.

I do not recall ever reading that anyone specifically stated that one side of the bed did not look slept in, but I always thought it looked that way in the crime scene photo. It's ambiguous though, the pic isn't very close. Do any of the recently released crime scene videos cover the parents' bedroom?




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This is the only one I can find.

 

[BBB167893]

For a piece of fantasy / fiction - check out this nonsense:

The JonBenet Ramsey case, according to Burke Ramsey
70 Points Burke Ramsey says prove his innocence

Nothing on this list even comes close to proving the innocence of any Ramsey, let alone Burke. Much of it is an outright lie.

Clearly, they've studied at the Josef Goebbels school of thought: tell lies often enough, they'll be accepted as truth.

 

[icedtea4me]

icedtea4me,
How about, BR's, JR's and PR's dna all being present?

.

Why not the possibility of JonBenet's dna?

 

[Laughing]

This would depend on whose dna was found to be on the flashlight.

Wait, I thought The Flashlight was scrupulously clean? No fingerprints at all on the batteries, bulb, switch, casing?

Cleanest thing in the house, one could say....hope Lin Wood doesn't find that defamatory....

 

[UKGuy]

Why not the possibility of JonBenet's dna?

icedtea4me,
Because it's part of a standard RDI theory, e.g. Spitz. So you might expect to see it, then of course this exhibits confirmation bias.

Soo, if its not there, the flashlight has been forensically wiped, if it is there it may demonstrate it was used to whack JonBenet, as per Spitz.

.

 

[Buttons]

Wait, I thought The Flashlight was scrupulously clean? No fingerprints at all on the batteries, bulb, switch, casing?

Cleanest thing in the house, one could say....hope Lin Wood doesn't find that defamatory....

The lack of fingerprints and DNA on the flashlight is strange. It's more suspicious to not find someone's DNA on something that belonged to them.

The same goes for no fingerprints being found on the note. They were obviously trying to cover their tracks so they couldn't be forensically linked to anything of interest but in doing so only made their guilt more prominent.

 

[Sphinx]

I agree with you. In my opinion Burke also manifested a gigantic narcissistic, grandiose opinion of his importance and appeal. When he smiled and smirked all through the Dr. Phil interview, as well as in his childhood interviews with a psychologist after the death of JB, I could not help but think that as a child he was very happy she was gone, and proud, as well as smug that he had gotten away with it. As an adult, I think he was smiling thinking about all the attention he was getting on national television, and he probably was smiling at all the beautiful girls he thought were falling in love with him as they saw him on tv. His huge ego wants to be seen as a very attractive person, with star power ( like his sister had in spades ), who now will play out more drama with this 750 million lawsuit, which I think he hopes will not only make him wealthy, but vindicate him, and again allow him to be a media star. He is one of the most obvious and frightening psychopaths I have ever seen in my life, and because his brain is so defective, there is no hope of a cure for him. His real life as an adult is telling -- he works at home on computers, in what is most likely a made job, his father created to give him something to do that will hopefully keep him out of trouble, and provide some face saving for the rest of his family. It does not look like he can interact successfully in society on almost any level. I don't think the Ramseys wanted to admit that they knew he was real trouble, and that they did not do enough to protect little JB from his hate, jealousy and proven history of violence towards her. They wanted to save face for their family image, and maybe still allow John to go into politics, but I think they were also afraid of being charged with criminal negligence, and being accessories after the fact in a murder, by carrying out the cover-up. Just like the boy who killed the Holloway girl in Aruba, and got away with it, I fear that Burke will kill again, and for all the wrong reasons that seem appealing to his psychopathic mind.

I wonder why his Father wanted him to do the Dr. Phil show, or was it just that he could not stop him ? I am sure Dr. P. saw right through him. During that show, I thought he looked worried about how obvious Burke was, and that everyone would say he did it just for the ratings, which I suspect he did. IMO

 

[UKGuy]

I agree with you. In my opinion Burke also manifested a gigantic narcissistic, grandiose opinion of his importance and appeal. When he smiled and smirked all through the Dr. Phil interview, as well as in his childhood interviews with a psychologist after the death of JB, I could not help but think that as a child he was very happy she was gone, and proud, as well as smug that he had gotten away with it. As an adult, I think he was smiling thinking about all the attention he was getting on national television, and he probably was smiling at all the beautiful girls he thought were falling in love with him as they saw him on tv. His huge ego wants to be seen as a very attractive person, with star power ( like his sister had in spades ), who now will play out more drama with this 750 million lawsuit, which I think he hopes will not only make him wealthy, but vindicate him, and again allow him to be a media star. He is one of the most obvious and frightening psychopaths I have ever seen in my life, and because his brain is so defective, there is no hope of a cure for him. His real life as an adult is telling -- he works at home on computers, in what is most likely a made job, his father created to give him something to do that will hopefully keep him out of trouble, and provide some face saving for the rest of his family. It does not look like he can interact successfully in society on almost any level. I don't think the Ramseys wanted to admit that they knew he was real trouble, and that they did not do enough to protect little JB from his hate, jealousy and proven history of violence towards her. They wanted to save face for their family image, and maybe still allow John to go into politics, but I think they were also afraid of being charged with criminal negligence, and being accessories after the fact in a murder, by carrying out the cover-up. Just like the boy who killed the Holloway girl in Aruba, and got away with it, I fear that Burke will kill again, and for all the wrong reasons that seem appealing to his psychopathic mind.

I wonder why his Father wanted him to do the Dr. Phil show, or was it just that he could not stop him ? I am sure Dr. P. saw right through him. During that show, I thought he looked worried about how obvious Burke was, and that everyone would say he did it just for the ratings, which I suspect he did. IMO

Sphinx,
Interesting post there. BBM: Absolutely hope not but if he did and was caught, the publicity would off the scale.

His latest escapade, suing CBS, has made my small town's local paper, so that's a measure of the pulling power of the JonBenet case.

The thing about BR, given what we know, is he being managed, is he prescribed stuff like prozac to deal with what must be a difficult life?

He is definitely not Mr Average, he is out on the outlier part of your Normal Distribution, does anyone think BR knows this?

I've never seen any girl, post to facebook or tweet, Hey my BF is Burke Ramsey, who does he socialize with, does he have any behavioral issues with personal relationships?

.

 

[HarmonyE.]

I agree with you. In my opinion Burke also manifested a gigantic narcissistic, grandiose opinion of his importance and appeal. When he smiled and smirked all through the Dr. Phil interview, as well as in his childhood interviews with a psychologist after the death of JB, I could not help but think that as a child he was very happy she was gone, and proud, as well as smug that he had gotten away with it. As an adult, I think he was smiling thinking about all the attention he was getting on national television, and he probably was smiling at all the beautiful girls he thought were falling in love with him as they saw him on tv. His huge ego wants to be seen as a very attractive person, with star power ( like his sister had in spades ), who now will play out more drama with this 750 million lawsuit, which I think he hopes will not only make him wealthy, but vindicate him, and again allow him to be a media star. He is one of the most obvious and frightening psychopaths I have ever seen in my life, and because his brain is so defective, there is no hope of a cure for him. His real life as an adult is telling -- he works at home on computers, in what is most likely a made job, his father created to give him something to do that will hopefully keep him out of trouble, and provide some face saving for the rest of his family. It does not look like he can interact successfully in society on almost any level. I don't think the Ramseys wanted to admit that they knew he was real trouble, and that they did not do enough to protect little JB from his hate, jealousy and proven history of violence towards her. They wanted to save face for their family image, and maybe still allow John to go into politics, but I think they were also afraid of being charged with criminal negligence, and being accessories after the fact in a murder, by carrying out the cover-up. Just like the boy who killed the Holloway girl in Aruba, and got away with it, I fear that Burke will kill again, and for all the wrong reasons that seem appealing to his psychopathic mind.

I wonder why his Father wanted him to do the Dr. Phil show, or was it just that he could not stop him ? I am sure Dr. P. saw right through him. During that show, I thought he looked worried about how obvious Burke was, and that everyone would say he did it just for the ratings, which I suspect he did. IMO

You could be right on all counts, but I'm not willing to go there right now. We just don't know enough about him now, IMHO, and its hard to judge him as an adult solely on his (exceptionally bad, I agree) performance on Dr. Phil. Clearly he had to agree to the lawsuit, but I think he had a great deal of encouragement from his father and Lin Wood because that's been their way of successfully keeping people away from the truth for the past two decades. Suing and threatening is what the Ramseys have always done, why stop now?

I do think he was a horrible little boy who killed his sister in a fit of rage, but I'd like more insight into the adult Burke Ramsey before I conclude he's anything close to being psychopathic today. Most kids who kill in his age range do not grow up to be wild-eyed killers.

 

[buggiegirl]

The lack of fingerprints and DNA on the flashlight is strange. It's more suspicious to not find someone's DNA on something that belonged to them.

The same goes for no fingerprints being found on the note. They were obviously trying to cover their tracks so they couldn't be forensically linked to anything of interest but in doing so only made their guilt more prominent.

No fingerprints on the note doesn't bother me. It was something they had for one day, they could have just washed their hands with it being morning and not had oily enough fingers to leave prints. Plus you don't necessarily leave prints every single time you touch anything.

But the flashlight is totally crazy. I guarantee every flashlight in my house has all of our finger prints on it! You use it from time to time for years, eventually everyone will leave a print there. Odd to clean it off if it was used for the headbash, just because her skin wasn't broken so there wasn't blood on it to be cleaned...

 

[BOBON]

I agree with you. In my opinion Burke also manifested a gigantic narcissistic, grandiose opinion of his importance and appeal. When he smiled and smirked all through the Dr. Phil interview, as well as in his childhood interviews with a psychologist after the death of JB, I could not help but think that as a child he was very happy she was gone, and proud, as well as smug that he had gotten away with it. As an adult, I think he was smiling thinking about all the attention he was getting on national television, and he probably was smiling at all the beautiful girls he thought were falling in love with him as they saw him on tv.

Whilst I agree with your assessment I only believe it to be partially correct, it makes me wonder why
he is such a bad yet good liar. I am not sure if I can convey my thoughts well but
his game of telling white lies is quite strong - especially since childhood he has kept up the facade.
But while doing so, I also notice his utter comfortableness and his anxiety. ASPD (for example) is PRONE to anxiety disorders.
If he wanted the lime light and the "admirers" it would bring, he'd have sold juicy stories long before now.
He is obviously scared about something and hence remained in the shadows pretty much undetected until the recent Dr Phil
interview so I don't believe he enjoyed being in front of the camera as much as you'd give him credit for.
I don't know it was a personal choice (money) or he got convinced by John that it was a good idea to give a statement since
it marked the 20 year anniversary but he seems very distant to me. I don't believe the anxiety in the Dr Phil interview was faked. I think it
was real, probably because he knows he could mess it up and because he is uncomfortable, not only in front of the camera but with people.
Hence why I am sometimes confused with him, he lies with ease but he can't seem to get the grasp of how to fake emotions or even understands that it's needed
for him to play a certain act.

 

[kanzz]

I agree with you. In my opinion Burke also manifested a gigantic narcissistic, grandiose opinion of his importance and appeal. When he smiled and smirked all through the Dr. Phil interview, as well as in his childhood interviews with a psychologist after the death of JB, I could not help but think that as a child he was very happy she was gone, and proud, as well as smug that he had gotten away with it. As an adult, I think he was smiling thinking about all the attention he was getting on national television, and he probably was smiling at all the beautiful girls he thought were falling in love with him as they saw him on tv. His huge ego wants to be seen as a very attractive person, with star power ( like his sister had in spades ), who now will play out more drama with this 750 million lawsuit, which I think he hopes will not only make him wealthy, but vindicate him, and again allow him to be a media star. He is one of the most obvious and frightening psychopaths I have ever seen in my life, and because his brain is so defective, there is no hope of a cure for him. His real life as an adult is telling -- he works at home on computers, in what is most likely a made job, his father created to give him something to do that will hopefully keep him out of trouble, and provide some face saving for the rest of his family. It does not look like he can interact successfully in society on almost any level. I don't think the Ramseys wanted to admit that they knew he was real trouble, and that they did not do enough to protect little JB from his hate, jealousy and proven history of violence towards her. They wanted to save face for their family image, and maybe still allow John to go into politics, but I think they were also afraid of being charged with criminal negligence, and being accessories after the fact in a murder, by carrying out the cover-up. Just like the boy who killed the Holloway girl in Aruba, and got away with it, I fear that Burke will kill again, and for all the wrong reasons that seem appealing to his psychopathic mind.

I wonder why his Father wanted him to do the Dr. Phil show, or was it just that he could not stop him ? I am sure Dr. P. saw right through him. During that show, I thought he looked worried about how obvious Burke was, and that everyone would say he did it just for the ratings, which I suspect he did. IMO

Not so sure that Burke would kill again unless someone gets in his way. His nemesis is gone. He won't likely kill again, imo, unless he will benefit from it somehow. I do see him as a probable sociopath, rather than a psychopath, imo. A psychopath is more responsive to treatment - both in talk therapy pharmacotherapeutically. A sociopath, not so much. There is no counseling for them because they'll never see themselves as wrong. And there are no meds for sociopathy. Those people are the ones who either get by with their deeds or go to jail/prison.

Ironic that you mention Natalee Holloway. You do know that JR dated Beth Holloway for a while before he married his current wife, Jan Rousseaux, right? And that after they stopped dating, he downplayed it as just a friendship and said it was because, "Beth was behind me in terms of the grief cycle." How very empathetic of him. gah!