Was Burke involved?

[madeleine]

maybe it's just a classic jealousy/rage case,the other kid getting all the attention....JB was the beauty queen,the active one,BR was more a loner...
so many things point to BDI:

overkill/rage attack

evidence that show JB and BR had a snack together in the kitchen

JB being alive in the basement (dirt and debris found on her feet),BR possibly as well (high tech boots prints)

parents being overprotective,but not because there was an intruder

the fact that the parents were together till the end

there is evidence that the parents were involved in the staging,not necessarily in the killing and why on earth would one cover for the other

sexual assault...witness claims to have seen BR and JB playing doctor,JB wasn't raped by an adult,maybe playing doctor got rough

getting help for BR,why if he wasn't affected by her death,on the contrary,his behaviour sounds more like sociopath

both Hunter and Smit were very protective when it came to BR,why

he was sent to the Whites,maybe not because they were afraid he could spill the beans about what he saw but about what he did

maybe BDI is the reason why Fleet is keeping his mouth shut,he doesn't AGREE but doesn't wanna get a boy in trouble

most of the things that happen make sense if BDI

and if BDI I have this feeling that it will happen like with J.V.D.Sloot just wait and see............he can be controlled up to a point but eventually he loses it........

 

[azwriter]

From years ago, I have always considered Burke played a part in his sister's demise.

I would not use the word "involved," but rather he was there from the start. I believe he was (to put it nicely) playing doctor with his younger sister. And, this was not the first time he had been caught by his mother. He had been warned before not to do it again. And so he choses an evening when he believe his parents aren't going to snoop but surprise, Mom does discover him in the act in his bedroom.

I believe Patsy was furious but took her anger out on her daughter - first removing JonBenet from the scene and perhaps back to her own bedroom while Burke dove under his covers, covering his ears and waiting his own punishment from Mom or Dad.

Not sure how it all came about but I see the head injury as one delivered with rage and frustration. And, there was no turning back after that. The guilt and shame and to protect Burke could well have compelled the parents to cover up the entire act. And go toward the ends of staging and perhaps re-staging and faking a kidnapping.

It has always been in my mind that there was a specific reason Patsy and John could not take JonBenet to the Emergency Room. There was something very serious and unlawful which kept them from gaining medical help for their daughter.

I can well see Patsy so frazzled and so angry that she wasn't thinking clearing immediately follow what she discovered in her son's bedroom.

I further believe Burke never really knew what happend to his sister after his mom yanked her from his room. For Burke, this may have been a scene he'd experienced before over this issue.

Of course this is all just my opinion. Your comments are welcome but please don't say Burke was too young to do this. He was just too young to be charged with a crime in the state of Colorado.

just my O.

 

[Nova]

he was sent to a shrink and NOT because he was disturbed by his sister's death,on the contrary,he treated it like it was...nothing
and that's why it makes me wonder,why did he need one and for how long?

LACK of response to his sister's death might be seen as a reason for therapy, just as "too much" grief (i.e., an inability to recover) might be.

 

[Nova]

AZwriter, I've never thought BR was "too young" to be involved, per se, and your list is a very good one.

But I have always been stuck on the fact that the Rs let BR out of their sight that day, accompanied by FW and a policeman. Given BR's age, that strikes me as an unlikely risk for two people who very much preferred to be in control. And surely they suspected that BR would be asked what he had witnessed (by FW if not by the cop): how could they possibly know what a 9-year-old might say?

(BTW, that they let BR go with FW also makes me doubt IDI. I don't see parents who had lost one child letting another go off, escorted by a family friend (even with the temporary protection of a policeman).)

***

Also--and this is a general comment, NOT a reply to AZwriter--I have never believed the theory that Boulder LE or the DA knew that BDI, but remained silent, constrained by CO law concerning crimes committed by children under 10.

Even if they were prohibited from making an official announcement, there were plenty of leaks in this case and a number of careers ruined when no charges were filed. SOMEBODY would have leaked the info that BDI to the press, if that is what authorities believed.

 

[UKGuy]

AZwriter, I've never thought BR was "too young" to be involved, per se, and your list is a very good one.

But I have always been stuck on the fact that the Rs let BR out of their sight that day, accompanied by FW and a policeman. Given BR's age, that strikes me as an unlikely risk for two people who very much preferred to be in control. And surely they suspected that BR would be asked what he had witnessed (by FW if not by the cop): how could they possibly know what a 9-year-old might say?

(BTW, that they let BR go with FW also makes me doubt IDI. I don't see parents who had lost one child letting another go off, escorted by a family friend (even with the temporary protection of a policeman).)

***

Also--and this is a general comment, NOT a reply to AZwriter--I have never believed the theory that Boulder LE or the DA knew that BDI, but remained silent, constrained by CO law concerning crimes committed by children under 10.

Even if they were prohibited from making an official announcement, there were plenty of leaks in this case and a number of careers ruined when no charges were filed. SOMEBODY would have leaked the info that BDI to the press, if that is what authorities believed.

Nova,
mmm, the devil might be in the detail. BDI may indeed have happened, but due to the staging, this cannot be demonstrated. What can is the participation of the parents, since forensic evidence links them to the crime-scene. Thus allowing either a PDI, JDI or both!


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[DeeDee249]

I agree with your points, Nova. BUT- the to the parents, sending BR with FW was the lesser of two evils. At that point, FW was not suspicious of the Rs. FW left BR with his wife and returned to the R house. He became suspicious later in the day, only after JB was "found" by JR in his presence, and he observed JR "seeing" the body in a pitch-black room BEFORE turning on the light switch, despite FW not being able to see her himself when he looked into the dark room earlier that morning (JR was unaware of FW's earlier trip to that room until FW told LE about it).
Keeping BR there would expose him to LE's observation, questions, and then there was the horror of him possibly seeing his dead sister's corpse- by this time, gray and mottled and stiffened by rigor mortis. If I were the Rs, I'd have made exactly the same decision, guilty or not.

 

[azwriter]

I agree with your points, Nova. BUT- the to the parents, sending BR with FW was the lesser of two evils. At that point, FW was not suspicious of the Rs. FW left BR with his wife and returned to the R house. He became suspicious later in the day, only after JB was "found" by JR in his presence, and he observed JR "seeing" the body in a pitch-black room BEFORE turning on the light switch, despite FW not being able to see her himself when he looked into the dark room earlier that morning (JR was unaware of FW's earlier trip to that room until FW told LE about it).
Keeping BR there would expose him to LE's observation, questions, and then there was the horror of him possibly seeing his dead sister's corpse- by this time, gray and mottled and stiffened by rigor mortis. If I were the Rs, I'd have made exactly the same decision, guilty or not.

Dee Dee your idea and reasons for sending Burke on his way to FW and out of the house are very believable.

I think having Burke around while police officials were all over the house was too much of a risk for John and Patsy. They probably saw that they would have little control over their son during that time, or that trying to control what Burke did and might say while the search was going on for his little sister would keep the parents away from their main goal - mainly to report a kidnapping and keep the suspicion off themselves.

When I think about this crime, I realize nothing matches. Here we have a ransom letter that strongly spells out how much John and his business activities are hated and that his daughter is taken in order to punish him.

But yet, we have a dead body which appears to have been murdered using a stone cold strangling with a cord hidden far away from where the parents could find her immediately and suffer the anguish of seeing that body in order to back up what the ransom letter threatened.

The letter claims kidnapping but yet there is a dead body of the victim.

And then we have an attempt to find clues and information that might shed light on what happend through out the night but one of the main witness in the house is sent away and omitted from questioning in the immediate aftermath of the kidnapping report.

I could go on and on listing the contradictions but I think many of them are clear when you take a look at this crime. When nothing stacks up, nothing matches from step A to B to C, I can clearly see a staged crime scene and body.

just my O.

 

[DeeDee249]

As LE said - this crime showed evidence of "staging WITHIN staging". Stranger/intruder child killers never leave their victim in their own home. They dump the body, whether buried or displayed (like Samantha Runnion) for shock value. Had the killer wanted to shock the parents of his victim, he'd have left her in her bed, or in some easily seen area of the home.

IMO, putting JB in the wineceller was meant to keep her from being found until the Rs could figure out what to do. I truly feel they planned to wait till LE left the house, after taking their reports, etc, leaving the Rs alone in the home. THEN, they planned to retrieve the body, call police and say "They (the kidnappers) KILLED her because we spoke to police". I suppose they planned to say the body was left on the porch or some other scenario. Or they could have said they found her in the wineceller, and the kidnappers must have found a way to get her in there because they were "very clever", as JR put it when asked about the mystery of how the kidnapper pulled a chair THROUGH A CLOSED DOOR in the train room. Either way, I do not think the Rs knew the police would make them leave the house, leaving their daughter's undiscovered body behind. When JR realized that was what was going to happen, he "found" her himself.

 

[UKGuy]

As LE said - this crime showed evidence of "staging WITHIN staging". Stranger/intruder child killers never leave their victim in their own home. They dump the body, whether buried or displayed (like Samantha Runnion) for shock value. Had the killer wanted to shock the parents of his victim, he'd have left her in her bed, or in some easily seen area of the home.

IMO, putting JB in the wineceller was meant to keep her from being found until the Rs could figure out what to do. I truly feel they planned to wait till LE left the house, after taking their reports, etc, leaving the Rs alone in the home. THEN, they planned to retrieve the body, call police and say "They (the kidnappers) KILLED her because we spoke to police". I suppose they planned to say the body was left on the porch or some other scenario. Or they could have said they found her in the wineceller, and the kidnappers must have found a way to get her in there because they were "very clever", as JR put it when asked about the mystery of how the kidnapper pulled a chair THROUGH A CLOSED DOOR in the train room. Either way, I do not think the Rs knew the police would make them leave the house, leaving their daughter's undiscovered body behind. When JR realized that was what was going to happen, he "found" her himself.

DeeDee249,

IMO, putting JB in the wineceller was meant to keep her from being found until the Rs could figure out what to do.

mmm, not really, the wine-cellar is a dump site, not a forget site. there is forensic evidence that is absent from the wine-cellar that is present in JonBenet's bedroom.


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[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,

mmm, not really, the wine-cellar is a dump site, not a forget site. there is forensic evidence that is absent from the wine-cellar that is present in JonBenet's bedroom.


.

That's not what I said. I didn't say they intended to forget her, I never said it was a "forget" site. She wasn't killed in the wineceller. She was put there to keep her out of the way until they figured out what to do. They never intended to just leave her there (forget her)- that is obvious because, since she was not found by LE or anyone else, they did NOT just leave her there. JR went to "find" her. So...they "dumped" her there, though it was temporary.
What evidence is in her bedroom? The blood on the pillowcase? Is that a proven fact? It was also said that a section of her bedroom carpet was taken. Urine (creatinine? blood?) I don't recall ever seeing anything definite about that.

 

[UKGuy]

That's not what I said. I didn't say they intended to forget her, I never said it was a "forget" site. She wasn't killed in the wineceller. She was put there to keep her out of the way until they figured out what to do. They never intended to just leave her there (forget her)- that is obvious because, since she was not found by LE or anyone else, they did NOT just leave her there. JR went to "find" her. So...they "dumped" her there, though it was temporary.
What evidence is in her bedroom? The blood on the pillowcase? Is that a proven fact? It was also said that a section of her bedroom carpet was taken. Urine (creatinine? blood?) I don't recall ever seeing anything definite about that.

DeeDee249,
Well the strongest evidence suggesting the R's intended JonBenet to be found, lies in the fact that her person was completely staged , yet the wine-cellar was not.

The wine-cellar is a classic dump-site, remote from the primary crime-scene. In classic dump-sites the victim has usually been cleaned up in some manner or been wrapped in a blanket or bag etc. There is usually a complete lack of forensic evidence at these sites, e.g. no blood, hair, clothing residue etc. Its back at the primary crime-scene.

They never intended to just leave her there (forget her)- that is obvious because

Well if she was placed there simply to expedite the Abduction Scenario, whilst abandoning some other plan, e.g. the one her person was staged for, then they probably expected the lea to find her.

What evidence is in her bedroom? The blood on the pillowcase? Is that a proven fact?

Yes I think the bloodstain underwent dna analysis. If it all took place anywhere down in the basement you might expect some residue in terms of forensic evidence to have been available, none has been. No blood from her nose, or her internal injury, no underwear or clothes used to wipe her down. The only possible item is her bloodstained Pink Barbie Nightgown, which can be explained away in the same manner as JonBenet?

This lack of evidence, along with the deliberate use of the paintbrush handle, suggests to me the majority of her staging took place upstairs. Patsy seems to have decided at the last minute to fabricate a garrote and injure JonBenet internally.

Those that disagree with this outline, have said nobody was going to run downstairs break a paintbrush hnadle then run back upstairs. OK, fine, but unless you accept most of the staging hapened upstairs, then someone ran upstairs to fetch, the longjohns and possibly the pack of size-12's, then back down again.


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[DeeDee249]

I think all of the staging took place in the basement, not necessarily all in the wineceller. I think the garrote was made in the basement- we already know there were shards of wood found on the basement carpet near the pain tote that were matched to the broken handle. So the brush was snapped right down there. I think the head bash MIGHT have happened in her room or bathroom. But that could just as easily have happened down in the basement.
As far as the blood on her pillowcase- experts have a way of examining blood on clothing, walls, etc. They can tell whether they are splatters, drops, whether blood dripped ONTO something or whether the droplets were flung onto something. They can tell whether the blood may have been transferred from someone else's fingers, as in a smear. We don't know whether the blood on the pillowcase or nightie was droplets, splatters, or smears. If it was a smear, it may have been transferred to the pillowcase and/or nightie from the hand of the stager.
I think after the garrote was made and tightened as she lay on her stomach, and her bladder voided as she lay that way, then someone got the white blanket out of the basement dryer (someone who KNEW it was there) and put it on the wineceller floor. Then, she was placed on her back, the sides of the blanket pulled up around her torso, and left there.
Once that door was shut and latched, the Rs set about constructing the kidnapping plan. Because they were not REAL kidnappers, they added so many convoluted ideas in order to point fingers in as many directions as they could- small foreign faction, disgruntled Access Graphics employee, the housekeeper. Like JR said "this was an inside job". Even he didn't think the SFF blather would fly.
That's the way I see it.

 

[madeleine]

Like JR said "this was an inside job". Even he didn't think the SFF blather would fly.

this is interesting cause I guess this shows he had no idea what the RN said until he had the time to sit down and study it,after the cops arrived?
did he have no idea about what happened until he found the body or was he so busy with the staging that he didn't pay attention to what PR was doing in the meantime? (points again to BDI)

 

[madeleine]

I am still convinced(Wechts explanation re the blood flow makes perfect sense to me,so does Smits re the marks being red/she was alive not white/postmortem) that strangulation came first,this is the main reason why I always thought JDI (sex game gone wrong or she needed to be silenced) or BDI (some other game gone wrong or rage attack/overkill)

 

[momof4ws]

Hi everyone! I'm new to this forum and have spent 4 months reading the books and reading everything I possibly could on this murder. I'm glad all of you have kept it alive by talking about it. Hopefully I can contribute to the conversation! As I've read about this case one thing keeps knawing at me. In the Bonita papers...not sure how far down it was noted that Patsy asked John if JB had any bruises on her arms and he said "no" and Patsy asked if he was sure and he replied "no" again. It had to do with the sleeveless dress JB would wear for the funeral. Is this a conversation overheard by someone who reported it to LE or was this made up? It was in the Bonita papers. Anyone?

 

[UKGuy]

I think all of the staging took place in the basement, not necessarily all in the wineceller. I think the garrote was made in the basement- we already know there were shards of wood found on the basement carpet near the pain tote that were matched to the broken handle. So the brush was snapped right down there. I think the head bash MIGHT have happened in her room or bathroom. But that could just as easily have happened down in the basement.
As far as the blood on her pillowcase- experts have a way of examining blood on clothing, walls, etc. They can tell whether they are splatters, drops, whether blood dripped ONTO something or whether the droplets were flung onto something. They can tell whether the blood may have been transferred from someone else's fingers, as in a smear. We don't know whether the blood on the pillowcase or nightie was droplets, splatters, or smears. If it was a smear, it may have been transferred to the pillowcase and/or nightie from the hand of the stager.
I think after the garrote was made and tightened as she lay on her stomach, and her bladder voided as she lay that way, then someone got the white blanket out of the basement dryer (someone who KNEW it was there) and put it on the wineceller floor. Then, she was placed on her back, the sides of the blanket pulled up around her torso, and left there.
Once that door was shut and latched, the Rs set about constructing the kidnapping plan. Because they were not REAL kidnappers, they added so many convoluted ideas in order to point fingers in as many directions as they could- small foreign faction, disgruntled Access Graphics employee, the housekeeper. Like JR said "this was an inside job". Even he didn't think the SFF blather would fly.
That's the way I see it.

DeeDee249,

I think all of the staging took place in the basement, not necessarily all in the wineceller.

I disagree, the best place for the staging to start would be the primary crime-scene.

I think the garrote was made in the basement- we already know there were shards of wood found on the basement carpet near the pain tote that were matched to the broken handle. So the brush was snapped right down there.

I agree the evidence seems to support this.

As far as the blood on her pillowcase- experts have a way of examining blood on clothing, walls, etc. They can tell whether they are splatters, drops, whether blood dripped ONTO something or whether the droplets were flung onto something. They can tell whether the blood may have been transferred from someone else's fingers, as in a smear. We don't know whether the blood on the pillowcase or nightie was droplets, splatters, or smears. If it was a smear, it may have been transferred to the pillowcase and/or nightie from the hand of the stager.

Well the blood can be tested against samples from her nose etc. Or the stain on the nightgown, we know they did the dna analysis.

I think after the garrote was made and tightened as she lay on her stomach, and her bladder voided as she lay that way, then someone got the white blanket out of the basement dryer (someone who KNEW it was there) and put it on the wineceller floor. Then, she was placed on her back, the sides of the blanket pulled up around her torso, and left there.

Could have happened as you outline, or maybe she had already been strangled prior to having the paintbrush handle applied, and the latter is deliberate staging? Until I see evidence to the contrary, I'll assume that the garrote is staging to mask a prior strangulation.

Just about everything on JonBenet's person has been staged, so why should the garrote be different? In the sequence of events the garrote is close to the last, so looks like a last minute decision.

Once that door was shut and latched, the Rs set about constructing the kidnapping plan.

Certainly looks that way. They had approximately 5-hours to effect the staging, yet messed it up big time with those size-12's.

 

[momof4ws]

IF IF this conversation was a documented fact THEN why would Patsy ask this? JB wore a long sleeve shirt...supposedly...when she went to bed...and was found dead by John wearing the same long sleeve shirt. How would he know if JB had bruises on her arms? He supposedly last saw JB alive when he helped put her to bed. That was supposedly the last time he saw her alive. Did he pull her sleeves up after he found her dead? Am I reaching hear?

 

[UKGuy]

IF IF this conversation was a documented fact THEN why would Patsy ask this? JB wore a long sleeve shirt...supposedly...when she went to bed...and was found dead by John wearing the same long sleeve shirt. How would he know if JB had bruises on her arms? He supposedly last saw JB alive when he helped put her to bed. That was supposedly the last time he saw her alive. Did he pull her sleeves up after he found her dead? Am I reaching hear?

momof4ws,

How would he know if JB had bruises on her arms?

Maybe Lou Smit told him, maybe he read the autopsy report. Similar happened with the size-12's, Patsy knew all about JonBenet wearing them prior to her interview.

 

[momof4ws]

Thanks for the reply...I'll have to go back again and read the autopsy report. I don't remember reading about bruising on the arms. :blushing:

 

[momof4ws]

So the emphasis in the autopsy was her head,face,neck,inner thighs, and back but nothing on her arms really so it puzzles me as to why Patsy was concerned about bruising on her arms when most of the trauma was to her neck. IDK, it just stuck out to me. I've always felt that John took part in the cover-up. He was the calm one, not Patsy.