We DO have Coyotes in Fla!

[jon_burrows]

As crazy as it sounds I think the jury should be told there are coyotes in Florida. Andrea Yates was convicted during her first trial and received LWOP but that conviction was overturned because the prosecution said a 'Law and Order' episode aired about a mother drowning her children. It was later learned the 'Law and Order' episode did not air until after she killed her children.

I don't want ICA appealing and winning over something so silly.

IMO

 

[GetSmart]

http://www.wtsp.com/news/topstories/article/198072/250/Coyotes-eating-family-pets-in-Bradenton

Bradenton, Florida- Residents in Bradenton say a pack of aggressive coyotes are eating up neighborhood animals and have now started going after family pets.
Melody Sweetman-Carpenter lives in the Bay Lake Estates neighborhood and had no idea the wild animals were roaming the area.
Over the weekend she allowed her Malteese "Ari" out to potty.

 

[charok]

As crazy as it sounds I think the jury should be told there are coyotes in Florida. Andrea Yates was convicted during her first trial and received LWOP but that conviction was overturned because the prosecution said a 'Law and Order' episode aired about a mother drowning her children. It was later learned the 'Law and Order' episode did not air until after she killed her children.

I don't want ICA appealing and winning over something so silly.

IMO

understand "jon"...however, yes there are coyotes almost anywhere...urban and rural. look @ jessica simpsons dog snatched right out of her yard, this is Los Angeles area...urban as it gets! and i understand your concern about an appeal...however, coyotes may have moved the bones around, but they didnt put her in laundry bag, trash bag, nor did they duct tape her face and put a heart sticker on the tape..but i do understand where you are coming from..and i agree.

 

[Eileen730]

As crazy as it sounds I think the jury should be told there are coyotes in Florida. Andrea Yates was convicted during her first trial and received LWOP but that conviction was overturned because the prosecution said a 'Law and Order' episode aired about a mother drowning her children. It was later learned the 'Law and Order' episode did not air until after she killed her children.

I don't want ICA appealing and winning over something so silly.

IMO

Well if you live in florida you know there are coyote's!!!!!

 

[Desdemona]

Pardon me, and not to disparage any of the good thinking in this thread, but I did not understand Jeff Ashton to assert that there are no coyotes in Florida, nor that there are none in the Orlando area.

Ashton quipped, "We are not blessed with coyotes here," in response to Ms. Bock's speculative (and lame IMO) impromptu guess that perhaps a coyote could be an explanation of how Caylee's hip bone ended up buried four inches deep in the muck.

In context, Ashton's incredulous response to Bock's immediately prior suggestion that the bone could have been buried by a dog (not in evidence) was followed by this even more intense reaction to her throwing in a coyote.

IOW, I took Ashton's use of "here" to mean "within the facts of this case," not "here" in Orlando or Florida. JMO

---

ETA: Yes, I do realize that Bock said "I don't know if you have those here" -- and that she most likely meant it in the geographical sense. But I still believe Jeff framed his "here" as I explained above, to keep things in perspective for the jury. And of course, ICBW.

 

[jon_burrows]

Well if you live in florida you know there are coyote's!!!!!

That was not my point. JA said something that could potentially mislead jurors. If she is convicted she will appeal on anything and everything. A prosecutor misstating a fact or misleading the jury, no matter how trivial, is not a good thing. I don't believe this was intentional on JA's part, I think he simply didn't know coyotes lived in Orlando.

I don't think one can assume every resident in Florida knows what type of wildlife lives there.

IMO

 

[gxm]

Pardon me, and not to disparage any of the good thinking in this thread, but I did not understand Jeff Ashton to assert that there are no coyotes in Florida, nor that there are none in the Orlando area.

Ashton quipped, "We are not blessed with coyotes here," in response to Ms. Bock's speculative (and lame IMO) impromptu guess that perhaps a coyote could be an explanation of how Caylee's hip bone ended up buried four inches deep in the muck.

In context, Ashton's incredulous response to Bock's immediately prior suggestion that the bone could have been buried by a dog (not in evidence) was followed by this even more intense reaction to her throwing in a coyote.

IOW, I took Ashton's use of "here" to mean "within the facts of this case," not "here" in Orlando or Florida. JMO

---

ETA: Yes, I do realize that Bock said "I don't know if you have those here" -- and that she most likely meant it in the geographical sense. But I still believe Jeff framed his "here" as I explained above, to keep things in perspective for the jury. And of course, ICBW.

ITA. Thank you for stating it so clearly.

 

[gxm]

That was not my point. JA said something that could potentially mislead jurors. If she is convicted she will appeal on anything and everything. A prosecutor misstating a fact or misleading the jury, no matter how trivial, is not a good thing. I don't believe this was intentional on JA's part, I think he simply didn't know coyotes lived in Orlando.

I don't think one can assume every resident in Florida knows what type of wildlife lives there.

IMO

I disagree. Bock's comment was not relevant. And it is completely unnecessary to pursue a comment that is not backed up by evidence. If the DT really believes that this is a relevant line of inquiry then they need to bring in a coyote expert, because as best I've been able to find (while web searching on my lunch hour) it is unlikely that a coyote would bury a bone, they prefer fresh kill and they will consume smaller bones and leave the large ones behind. I have not found any information about coyotes and hoarding. Maybe they do, but I haven't found any information to substantiate Bock's feeble "the dog ate my homework" excuse. And while I have found many sites with videos of dogs eating paperwork, it's still an excuse most often greeted with a stifled laugh, or stern lecture.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v42Zcuk11FI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v42Zcuk11FI[/ame]

 

[Snaz]

Hi,

I was raised in Fla. I have seen Coyotes here all of my life. It is a known fact among those that live here.. I have no clue why this false info is being repeated time and time again from the talking heads tonight.

Imo I think the witness was totally off the wall in most of her testiomony. And yet, even she made it clear that she wasn't certain if Coyotes were here. Yet, all the "experts", including the SA, claimed there wasn't any coyotes in Fla.

I have seen them live and I have seen them dead on the road. There ARE coyotes in Fla.

Take care, Robin:banghead:

To be fair... and without going back and re-listening to what Jeff said... I think he said something to the effect of "We are not blessed with coyotes here." Maybe he was referring to the Orlando area and not the whole State of Florida.

I live in North Central/Central Florida and have for over 33 years, and have never personally seen a coyote, but I can't say there are none in the whole state.

JMHO

ETA: So has someone who lives in the Orlando area actually seen a coyote or read of someone seeing one in that area? I'm just curious. Because I did not know there were any coyotes anywhere in Florida.

 

[gxm]

I'm not from Florida, but with all my coyote web searching I now know that wasn't a really big fox I saw a few weeks back. Doh! Which is my roundabout way of saying that some folks may spot a coyote and not realize what they're looking at. I certainly did.

 

[Robinez]

To be fair... and without going back and re-listening to what Jeff said... I think he said something to the effect of "We are not blessed with coyotes here." Maybe he was referring to the Orlando area and not the whole State of Florida.

I live in North Central/Central Florida and have for over 33 years, and have never personally seen a coyote, but I can't say there are none in the whole state.

JMHO

ETA: So has someone who lives in the Orlando area actually seen a coyote or read of someone seeing one in that area? I'm just curious. Because I did not know there were any coyotes anywhere in Florida.

I am not sure if this is what you are looking for. ExpectingUnicorns posted this earlier in this thread.

TC, Robin

http://www.wftv.com/news/16709793/detail.html

 

[xiola23]

Why in the *bleep* is the media saying "Dogs or Coyotes buried the remains of Caylee"...and then chuckle. Ummm...that's not at all what this botanical expert said in the first place. Oh how I just shake my head at how words are turned around to make a 'better' story.

She was simply stating what COULD have happened...I think she said "Maybe a dog buried it. They do that you know...even coyotes". Something like that. Now where in that statement does it even hint to the fact that a dog buried all of her remains or even buried the skull like I've heard on the news.

Also...isn't it possible that the skull was the only thing moved and then put back later? Not that I necessarily believe that...but totally possible.

I also think that if the witness would have used the word probable instead of possible....she would have had a better outcome and not been laughed at.
JMO.

 

[MsMaddie]

...If the DT really believes that this is a relevant line of inquiry then they need to bring in a coyote expert, because as best I've been able to find (while web searching on my lunch hour) it is unlikely that a coyote would bury a bone, they prefer fresh kill and they will consume smaller bones and leave the large ones behind. I have not found any information about coyotes and hoarding. ...

You are indeed correct. Coyotes do not bury their food like domestic dogs. (I'm a coyote hunter, so I feel comfortable speaking to that.) No hate please. I do it to save the lives of helpless calves, a favorite prey of coyotes where I live, and costly loss to the ranchers when coyotes dine on them!

As to the original question: The SA's comments about not being blessed with 'coyotes here' concerned me from a legal perspective too, because it was in direct response to the question to the effect of 'I don't know if you have coyotes here'. However, I don't recall the DT objecting to the SA's comment. I'm guessing they were too busy hanging their heads with the realization that even without that comment, the SA had already totally dismantled any benefit her testimony had contributed to their case. I think the record on appeal would show that her testimony contradicted itself so much that SA's comments, if error, would amount to only harmless error.

 

[RANCH]

You are indeed correct. Coyotes do not bury their food like domestic dogs. (I'm a coyote hunter, so I feel comfortable speaking to that.) No hate please. I do it to save the lives of helpless calves, a favorite prey of coyotes where I live, and costly loss to the ranchers when coyotes dine on them!

As to the original question: The SA's comments about not being blessed with 'coyotes here' concerned me from a legal perspective too, because it was in direct response to the question to the effect of 'I don't know if you have coyotes here'. However, I don't recall the DT objecting to the SA's comment. I'm guessing they were too busy hanging their heads with the realization that even without that comment, the SA had already totally dismantled any benefit her testimony had contributed to their case. I think the record on appeal would show that her testimony contradicted itself so much that SA's comments, if error, would amount to only harmless error.

To be honest with you, I think that this whole coyote thing is more of an issue to people on the forum than in a court of law. What does it matter if coyotes live in florida? Coyotes did not kill this child. End of story.

 

[MsMaddie]

To be honest with you, I think that this whole coyote thing is more of an issue to people on the forum than in a court of law. What does it matter if coyotes live in florida? Coyotes did not kill this child. End of story.

I agree; coyotes did not kill this child, and I did not mean to imply that was even a remote possibility.

The concern I was addressing was whether or not the SA's comment might constitute reversible error on appeal.

 

[RANCH]

I agree; coyotes did not kill this child, and I did not mean to imply that was even a remote possibility.

The concern I was addressing was whether or not the SA's comment might constitute reversible error on appeal.

Ok I looked at what you said again. I don't see anything wrong. I don't see how the states attorney's did anything wrong. Please tell me whats up.

 

[MsMaddie]

Ok I looked at what you said again. I don't see anything wrong. I don't see how the states attorney's did anything wrong. Please tell me whats up.

First I absolutely, and totally admire ASA Jeff Ashton. Despite the horrible circumstances of this case, it is a pleasure to watch an attorney as capable and professional as he try a case.

Poster jon_borrows expressed concern about ASA Ashton's remark to the effect 'We are not blessed with coyotes here'. The concern is that because in FACT there are coyotes in FL, ASA Ashton's remark might be interpreted by the appellate court as misleading the jury, and thus potential grounds for reversal of a guilty verdict.

Upon hearing his comment, I too had such concerns for the following reasons:

The witnesses comment was made in an effort to explain away the mud in which one of the bones was found (I can't recall which...skull maybe). Since the witness who made the statement was attempting to establish that the remains might have been in the area as little as 2 weeks, (with ICA being an inmate at that time), the implication is ICA could NOT be the one who put them there. (DT trying to establish reasonable doubt in even one of the jurror's minds.) If (WHEN) ICA is found guilty, IF the appellate court deems ASA Ashton's statement to have been misleading the jury that there are not coyotes in FL, when in fact there ARE, then the concern would be that ICA gets guilty verdict overturned on appeal. (Misleading IF they read his comment to mean there are 'no coyotes in FL' in response to the witnesses comment, "I don't know if you have those in FL.")

Upon reflection of the comment in connection with that particular witnesses testimony it is MHO that the witness was so bad and contradicted her own testimony so much, ASA Ashton's comment, IF found to be any error at all by the appellate court, would be deemed "harmless" error, and therefor not grounds for reversal of a guilty verdict.