We the jury find the defendant Casey Anthony...

[thedeviledadvocate]

She never googled "what is chloroform"!she googled "how to make chloroform" I believe she did see Ricardo's photo and I believe this sparked the idea of using it on Caylee - I DO NOT buy that she didn't know what it was.

I believe Dr. Vass on the chloroform levels in the trunk. Mo

I respect your opinion, here is mine.

Dr. Vass did not do quantative tests, and his research did not use standards. The FBI said the chloroform levels in the carpet were normal. Dr. Vass in a smart man, and someday his sniffer will be part of many trials, but as of today, his results are not evidence that can be considered certain beyond a reasonable doubt. The only reason this air sample made it in to evidence is because JA is a better attorney than JB.

Even if KC did know what chloroform was, and looked up how to make it, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that shows that she made it or used it.

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

 

[GeekyGirl]

JA convinced you today that the duct tape was the murder weapon. What did he say today that was different than anything that has been said before?

Dr. G said the duct tape was in the vicinity of the skull. A portion of the tape was attached to the hair mass and mandible by debris and plant growth. The evidence in area A was manipulated by RK according to RK's testimony. Depending on which of RK's interviews you want to believe either the skull rolled out of the bag, dropped out of the bag, or he lifted the bag four feet off the ground, looked down and saw a skull at his feet, at which point he took his meter stick and stuck it in the eye socket to tilt it upward to make sure it was a skull. I don't know what JA said today that could convince you that this evidence is now proof beyond a reasonable doubt, and not speculation of tape being in the vicinity of the skull therefore maybe it was covering the childs mouth. I cannot put someone on death row simply because a piece of duct tape was in the vicinity of a child's mouth.

Would you vote aggravated manslaughter because you think KC is guilty of neglect and Caylee drowned in the pool?

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

Actually, there was one thing he said about the duct tape that might sway me, and that was him saying that it was angled and cupped under her chin. This made me really consider how, when and why it was applied... And nevermind, as I sit here and try to write out my rationale, the logic isn't as solid as I initially thought. *sigh* back to vacillating.

 

[Who_What_When]

JA convinced you today that the duct tape was the murder weapon. What did he say today that was different than anything that has been said before?

Dr. G said the duct tape was in the vicinity of the skull. A portion of the tape was attached to the hair mass and mandible by debris and plant growth. The evidence in area A was manipulated by RK according to RK's testimony. Depending on which of RK's interviews you want to believe either the skull rolled out of the bag, dropped out of the bag, or he lifted the bag four feet off the ground, looked down and saw a skull at his feet, at which point he took his meter stick and stuck it in the eye socket to tilt it upward to make sure it was a skull. I don't know what JA said today that could convince you that this evidence is now proof beyond a reasonable doubt, and not speculation of tape being in the vicinity of the skull therefore maybe it was covering the childs mouth. I cannot put someone on death row simply because a piece of duct tape was in the vicinity of a child's mouth.

Would you vote aggravated manslaughter because you think KC is guilty of neglect and Caylee drowned in the pool?

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

I've been on the fence about the duct tape and whether or not it was used before or after Caylee died. I have always felt that it was on her; but without seeing the photos I just couldn't get a visual of how it was done so there was a part of me that thought it could have been placed after she died to make it look like a kidnapping. I felt that Jeff did a good job of explaining how it was placed on Caylee.

I don't believe that RK did anything malicious in this case and don't buy the DT version on what happen with the body. I do believe that Casey had Caylee's body in the trunk and that she and she alone was the one to dump her in the woods. I just wasn't sure if it was an accident that she tried to cover up or if it was intentional. I’m still somewhat on the fence about it and am waiting to hear what the SA says tomorrow. For me, the closing arguments really help to tie things together.

I absolutely would vote for aggravated manslaughter, I'm just not sure on 1st or 2nd degree.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

This defendant is a black hole, and I don't believe she deserves to ever see life outside of prison. That said, I don't believe the SAO met the burden of indisputable or irrefutable evidence which would allow me to feel confident finding her guilty of murder 1. I need fingerprints, or Casey's DNA, or video of Casey purchasing chloroform ingredients, receipts for ingredients, credible eye witness testimony.....you get my drift. I know she killed her child. The state just wasn't able to prove how and definitively show me how she did it. I would need that. I will sleep well, however, if the jury is able to do it however. I mainly want her to be denied the life and lifestyle that she so desperately wanted and felt she was entitled to.

I agree with you that the state has not provided the proof needed.

What I don't understand is if the proof you need is not there, then how do you come to the conclusion that she killed her child?

 

[GeekyGirl]

I respect your opinion, here is mine.

Dr. Vass did not do quantative tests, and his research did not use standards. The FBI said the chloroform levels in the carpet were normal. Dr. Vass in a smart man, and someday his sniffer will be part of many trials, but as of today, his results are not evidence that can be considered certain beyond a reasonable doubt. The only reason this air sample made it in to evidence is because JA is a better attorney than JB.

Even if KC did know what chloroform was, and looked up how to make it, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that shows that she made it or used it.

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

Can I just add that the test results couldn't be indepently verified? That lessens it's impact for me, along with the reasons you cited above. MOO

 

[Nova24]

I think Man is 15 but Agg Man in this instance would go up to 30 years. I know Agg Child Abuse is also felony murder.

I could go 1st but I think a compromise will be reached and they go with a lesser charge.

 

[RANCH]

Actually, there was one thing he said about the duct tape that might sway me, and that was him saying that it was angled and cupped under her chin. This made me really consider how, when and why it was applied... And nevermind, as I sit here and try to write out my rationale, the logic isn't as solid as I initially thought. *sigh* back to vacillating.

You know that we didn't get to see the photos of the skull and tape at the recovery site or anywhere for that matter. The jury has one up on us. If we could see those photos it might give us different perspective.

 

[SAgal]

I voted: Guility of Count Aggravated Manslaughter and all counts of lying to the police.
My reason: Not knowing excactly how KC killed Caylee.

I gave no weight to the Defense's theories; or Baez's opening or closing arguments.
I don't believe George Anthony had anything to do with the death of Caylee; or hiding her body.
I don't believe Kronk had anything to do with hiding Caylee's body.

OT: I hope Cindy Anthony is prosecuted for perjury.

 

[Nova24]

He talked today about ICA dumping the body after claiming the whole trial GA did it. Does he think the jury will think she walked it to the dump or that they will know she was in the trunk which he also denied the whole trial.

If the jury has half a brain she will be convicted of some very serious charges. Might not be 1st but enough to put her away for a very long time if not life.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

I've been on the fence about the duct tape and whether or not it was used before or after Caylee died. I have always felt that it was on her; but without seeing the photos I just couldn't get a visual of how it was done so there was a part of me that thought it could have been placed after she died to make it look like a kidnapping. I felt that Jeff did a good job of explaining how it was placed on Caylee.

I don't believe that RK did anything malicious in this case and don't buy the DT version on what happen with the body. I do believe that Casey had Caylee's body in the trunk and that she and she alone was the one to dump her in the woods. I just wasn't sure if it was an accident that she tried to cover up or if it was intentional. I’m still somewhat on the fence about it and am waiting to hear what the SA says tomorrow. For me, the closing arguments really help to tie things together.

I absolutely would vote for aggravated manslaughter, I'm just not sure on 1st or 2nd degree.

JA said basically the same thing at a hearing before the trial started. For me though, his speculation of the placement of that duct tape is the same as the photoshop superimposition. It is all speculation to me. Even Dr. G saying in the vicinity. We can't truly debate or deliberate about the tape because we did not see the photos of the skull. If I were in the jury deliberation room, I would argue strongly that there is no way possible that we can know for sure that the duct tape was wrapped around this childs mouth. We can speculate, but if even the medical examiner cannot determine cause of death, I can't put that tape over the childs mouth and believe she was suffocated. There are other ways that tape could have ended up attached to the hair mass with roots and debris than being wrapped around Caylee's skull. For me JA was speculating about this tape, the same as he speculated about the chloroform.

As for RK being malicious, I don't really think that was the case. However, I think if he was honest in any of his interviews, he did move the skull around, which makes me very suspicious about the root growth. It is odd his kid said he called him before Thanksgiving though, and its so many of those types of things that keep stacking up the doubts in my mind about this case.

I think Caylee accidently drowned. Whether she was under KC's care or GA's care at the time of the drowning, I'm not sure, and that is why I can't even go with aggravated manslaughter.

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

Actually, there was one thing he said about the duct tape that might sway me, and that was him saying that it was angled and cupped under her chin. This made me really consider how, when and why it was applied... And nevermind, as I sit here and try to write out my rationale, the logic isn't as solid as I initially thought. *sigh* back to vacillating.

For me, the simple fact that RK states in an interview that he used his meter stick and tilted the skull upwards, makes me have doubts about the integrity of the evidence surrounding the skull in general. I read each of RK's interviews, all 7 of them, and his story changed in each report. The fact that he found the remains again and had so many changing stories, well, it just makes me think that the skull may have been in one of those bags, and did roll out, and if that did happen, then how does that explain the root growth etc.

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

 

[Reality Orlando]

I think the chloroform searches...84 or not 84...was a huge point. I also think that seeing the Myspace (Morales Chloroform ad) followed by the Chloroform search makes sense. I often look up things I'm not familiar with on a regular basis. I think that area might give some of the jurors pause regarding the chloroform being used on Caylee.

 

[GeekyGirl]

You know that we didn't get to see the photos of the skull and tape at the recovery site or anywhere for that matter. The jury has one up on us. If we could see those photos it might give us different perspective.

I agree. Not that I really want to see them, but I feel like I wouldn't be able to come to firm conclusion without them. Just one of those things I'll wonder about.

 

[Just Jayla]

I agree. Not that I really want to see them, but I feel like I wouldn't be able to come to firm conclusion without them. Just one of those things I'll wonder about.

When Dr. Vass admits he'd rather be cremated than know he was going to go through the process that Caylee's body went through, you know it was pretty awful stuff to see. He sees it all the time and it gets to him, so the jurors have to be so affected by it.
I know seeing pictures of Nicole Simpson to this day are gut wrenching, but Caylee was a baby who did not get proper burial like Nicole got. Awful.

 

[Maia]

For me, there is no doubt that ICA is guilty of premeditated murder. This child did not accidentally drown. ICA WOULD NOT have given up her bella vita and sat in jail for three years if she had. IMO, she murdered Caylee with the tape, and it became premeditated when she tore off the first piece of tape. If Caylee were acting up and she had only wanted to silence her, 1 piece would have been sufficient (NOT THAT I CONDONE THAT) and she would have stopped there, but she continued and tore the seond piece and then the third. They were each 7" to 9" long and were wrapped from behind one ear around her face to behind the other ear. Who does that to anyone, much less a 2 yr old child, and not expect their death? I'm still on the fence about whether or not she made and used chloroform, but I do hope that this loving child wasn't awake and absolutely terrified to see what her mother was doing to her.

As for Mr. Kronk moving her skull...maybe he did, maybe he didn't. I don't really know what to believe about that because it sure seems like a lot of lies have been told up on that witness stand, but I do find it very interesting that JB DIDN'T ask him if there was duct tape on the skull. In fact, he didn't bring up the tape at all while questioning Kronk. But since he didn't, JA couldn't either.

However, I don't want her to get the DP. I want LWOP, because, although I am a tax payer in the state of FL, and it will cost all of us a tremendous amount of money, I want her to sit in a 6 x 8 cell, 23 hours a day, for the rest of her natural life. That's one bill I dont mind paying.

All of this, of course, is JMO so I'll stop ranting now. :crazy:

 

[SmoothOperator]

This may not be many, or even any other Person's feelings or opinion on Casey Anthony and her blatant, flat out, with zero regard, not to even attempt to mention an actual feeling such as love, or care, or least bit of concern for her very own flesh and blood.. Who whether she admitted it or not she carried in her womb for close to 9mos.. This beautiful creation and gift from God to Casey Marie Anthony, her daughter, named after herself and her brother whom she states molests, gropes, or attempts to have sex with or a sex act of some sort.. Their two names combined and chosen for her beautiful daughter, Caylee Marie Anthony..

I feel very strongly and refuse to award Casey Marie Anthony for the cold, calculated, premeditated, prompted purely out of selfish, self serving motives to murder her child, her beautiful, filled with everything good and pure and innocent that's left in this world.. To callously murder most likely without even raising the ice cold pulsating blood pressure that her veins are filled with.. And to boldly after in cold blood murdering her child in what I feel is one of the more planned out, thought long and hard on, and decided it to be, for her, a twenty something young woman who had needs that she needed fulfilled and damn it! Caylee was getting in the damn way Of Casey's need to party.. Live it up.. Hitting it up with men one after another.. As if she's on a mission.. Which IMO I think to each their own.. If that's how ya wanna roll.. Well then roll on!!! But when you are a mother of a young little girl your dAmn right you better get your chit together for the best interest of your beautiful little girl.. Or.. You get out of self absorbed, self centered, self seeking for me, me, me for long enough to make damn sure that since you for whatever reason cannot be a mother.. You make damn sure that Caylee Marie is being loved, cared for, and her most basic to her most frivolous of needs are being fully met by someone who is ready, is prepared, and has the means and the mindset to provide all of these things and more for your daughter.*

Casey Marie Anthony's self centered self serving mind, body, and entire soul would never do something as selfless as what I described ^above^.. Never!! Why?? Because her selfish and self serving mindset that had and still has such deep seated resentment, anger, disgust, and downright hatred of her loved ones who as we have seen over the course of the past 3 years may not be perfect, and may have more than their fair share of dysfunctions(guess what Casey so does the vast majority of families across this nation.. Get over.. Grow up.. Take responsibility for your actions amd choices and make the best of it fully aware and wanting to break a cycle if need be.. But damn it if ya had such a chitty upbringing and life then be extra determined to ensure your precious daughter doesn't suffer the same or worse!!!!!

But no.. Casey would never do that.. She did not even care about Caylee even enough to let the child live.. Much less to ever do something out of love for her child or what would be in her Childs best interest.. Casey's selfishness, self serving motives in her self serving world in which she lives.. Gave Caylee zero chance of even survival.. Casey's hatred for the family that thru dysfunction and even thru being the victim of Casey's self serving accusations of their somehow being responsible for her daughter's death.. But thru it all that family has attempted to stand by and love Casey..

That same venomous hatred, resentment, and even envy and contempt held for those same family members is what further created the self fulfilling prophecy Casey had her mind set and determined to carry out.. Murdering that which is most precious, most innocent, and truly the only thing good tht will ever come from Casey Marie Anthony.. Casey murdered her in ice cold blood out of nothing more than purely selfish, self serving motives.. Nothing else..

And because Casey did so with ice cold blood pumping thru her veins callously and calculating planned to rid herself of this what was nothing more than any extremely removable obstacle in your self centered path of life.. And this she so did do and carry out, follow thru, and at the hands of Casey alone Caylee Marie drew her final breath here on this earth with the last face, the last thing this precious baby ever saw in those panic filled, terror stricken, huge brown eyes was the face of a monster, her very own "mother"..

As I said way up there ^above^ in the beginning of this post there may not be a single soul who agrees with me, or sees this the way that I personally do.. And that is absolutely every single one of our prerogatives and what makes WS miles ^above^ the rest and set way far ahead of any other online forum.. And those individual differences and opinions of each of us always what IMO continues to bring new ppl every day of every new week..

I'm sorry but I will be damned if I somehow.. If I anyhow am going to cut her any slack on, reward her with a lesser charge as a verdict, or any even slightest of compensation, leeway, or anything else even remotely similar in nature.. For what I ask??

Am I going to reward or change my view to give her even the slightest sliver of a shadow doubt all because she damn good job murdering her beautiful daughter, plotting, planning and scheming out murdering her Daughter and those days that followed the callous, cold hearted murder in cold blood of her beautiful daughter.. Award or give the benefit of doubt because she stupidly or crazily like a fox traipsed around the town of Orlando in the heat and humidity of the dead of summer in Orlando 2008.. All the while with that beautiful, innocent baby daughter literally decomposing rapidly directly behind where this monstrous human sat and drove the car..

I will never excuse, make even the tiniest of an excuse to attempt to even make these vicious and brutal details of murdering an innocent child and was absolutely 150% disrespectful in every humanly possible way with what was left of her child's earthly remains.. These horrendous in nature details that make me cringe and shake to the very core of my bones and causes extreme discomfort in even having to think of what, why and how she In ice cold blood callously murdered one of God's beautiful gifts to us as mothers in the package of our children..

No matter the extreme discomfort that it causes me to even think about those details, I still will not even for a millisecond downplay, ignore, push aside, and certainly never even remotely let it be excused AND MOST OF ALL AWARDED!!!!

In giving this benefit of these doubts tbat IMPO many are completely fabricated doubts, false or fraudulent doubts being fed to the media, to this jury, etc..

I will not dare award.. Reward.. Casey Anthony a moment nor even the tiniest of a fraction of benefit WHATSOEVER for being good at doing evil..

REWARD CASEY MARIE ANTHONY WITH ANY ONE OF THESE NUMBER OF DIFFERENT WAYS THAT I HAVE DESCRIBED OR DETAILED *
I wiill not allow excuses, nor a centimeter of leniency for her having thoroughly amd completely acted and reacted in the most evil and monsterous ways imaginable..

I just do not believe for a second this being rewarded in a very real way by sentencing her to lesser charge as a verdict.. All because she did a damn good job of plotting, planning, scheming, executing, hiding, covering, preponderous mountains of lying to anything or anyone who dared ask, be involved with, and God forbid anyone seeking justice on her precious daughter's behalf..

To reward for the bang up, mighty fine job she did in every conceivable evil way imaginable in murdering, disposing and covering up just is not And will not ever be ok.. Nor will anything good or positive come from the evil that she, alone has created, wreaked havoc on so very many innocent peiple's lives, and to this very day embodies within every ounce of her entire being..

Anything less you better believe Casey sees as a rewarded victory cause she's just so damned smart at snowing and manipulating even our system Into giving her the benefit of doubt, essentially rewarding her with much less severe charges to which she's convicted, as well as less time to serve all because she hid and or destroyed, hid and lied all involving evidence not available because of her bang up job..*

Nope..Never, ever..
Just refuse to give her any type benefits whatsoever because she's a great and successful murderer, liar, master of deception and covering up..
And IMO that's exactly what it is.. Rewarding or Casey benefitting with these lesser charges because the evidence was well hidden or destroyed. Her benefit from things like this I just cannot or will not reconcile..

 

[Controversialist]

Even the DT would probably concede counts 4-7, and if pressed, even count 3. Counts 1-2 seem most in play. If this is not a hung jury---that is, if they are unanimous on anything---IMO it will be ICA guilty on all counts.

I don't expect this jury to be unanimous on excluding count 1. :crazy::waitasec::crazy:

 

[Controversialist]

I recall when OJ's not guilty verdict was first announced, the courtroom camera immediately scanned over to show Ronald Goldman's distraught sister doubling over in grief and shock, with Fred Goldman trying in futility to console her.

In addition to their outrage over denied justice for their brother, the Goldman's could have legitimately feared for their lives, with OJ free to retaliate against them.

If ICA were to be freed on acquittal, I wonder who might legitimately feel concern over a possible retaliation by ICA?

:waitasec::banghead::waitasec:

 

[Mulegirl]

This defendant is a black hole, and I don't believe she deserves to ever see life outside of prison. That said, I don't believe the SAO met the burden of indisputable or irrefutable evidence which would allow me to feel confident finding her guilty of murder 1. I need fingerprints, or Casey's DNA, or video of Casey purchasing chloroform ingredients, receipts for ingredients, credible eye witness testimony.....you get my drift. I know she killed her child. The state just wasn't able to prove how and definitively show me how she did it. I would need that. I will sleep well, however, if the jury is able to do it however. I mainly want her to be denied the life and lifestyle that she so desperately wanted and felt she was entitled to.

I love this thread and your post because this is exactly what juror deliberations should be.

This is one area I wish the SA would have addressed more clearly. Chloroform, from my admittedly nervous search just now (!!), seems pretty easy to make. You really only need bleach and acetone (nail polish remover) and instructions (which include the remaining ingredients like ice and water). Whose home does NOT have these ingredients? This is why I voted 1st degree murder.

As for other evidence, the decomposition of the body eliminated the possibility of any fingerprints or DNA evidence. IMO, this was addressed thoroughly by the State's experts.

And eye witness testimony is notorious -- our memories are the worst kinds of evidence that there is. Many, many, many people who were convicted on eyewitness testimony are the beneficiaries of the Innocence Project's work with DNA and other new scientific forensic developments used to to exonerate them. Our memories are horribly maleable and in times of trauma are often wildly inaccurate. And our visual input is notoriously unreliable even in everyday life. Have you ever seen the study with the video of people playing basketball and the subjects are told to count the number of passes on a certain team? In the middle, an actor walks right in front of the camera wearing a gorilla suit, pauses for a solid 10 seconds or so right in the middle of the screen, and then walks off. It's frightening how many people, myself included, never notice that on first viewing! It's WAY over 50% of the viewers that totally miss the gorilla suited person, but I don't recall the exact percentage. It's a known weak spot in our brain biology and function.

The best "eyewitnesses" (nose-witnesses?) are the dogs, IMO. I'm a former dog trainer, among other things. Their training is extensive and very, very thorough. The implications made by JB of them "pleasing the handler" are bunk. The training is specifically tailored to prevent that, and handlers are just as extensively trained to prevent handler bias.

Mind you, my studies and hobbies are science, neuropsychiatry and the like, and criminal psychological and neurobiological studies, in addition to background on learning theory and animal behavior. I also have a background as a computer tech (my own company for many years). And then there's my jobs in law firms and my being a hobbyist in learning about the judicial system.

I think there's a whole lot of folks here with even more pertinent backgrounds and knowledge than I have, and I would imagine that it's rare for a jury to have even one person like many of the sleuthing types here. What do y'all think? That really plays a big role in this.

On that note, does anyone know if the IT guy is on the actual jury or an alternate? I think his input is going to be important for the jury...

:cow:

 

[lettersinkanji]

On that note, does anyone know if the IT guy is on the actual jury or an alternate? I think his input is going to be important for the jury...

:cow:

According to this link, the IT guy is juror #2. I believe the first 12 are the actual jury (correct me if I'm wrong).

http://blogs.discovery.com/criminal_report/2011/05/casey-anthony-trial-juror-profiles.html