Weekend Discussion thread 04/21-24/2012

[Kamille]

Rosie Dimanno's, poorly written, condescending article that you linked to here only talks about all the innuendo about Tara MacDonald, that has been filling the blogosphere's since the beginning of the case, including, likely, by the accused himself.

Surely you don't think Derstine is going to focus the blame on Victoria's mother? That is surely to backfire, and all chances of a not-guilty verdict will fly out the window.

JMO

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1142826--tori-stafford-murder-trial-mother-s-shortcomings

I especially like the part where she says that TM's habit had increased to a "whopping 80mg a day" after Victoria's disappearance.

Umm...didn't MR admit to about 5 times that much to the two undercover LE in his jail cell?

MOO

 

[Kamille]

By the way, since it's been brought up a few times about the defence going for an appeal based on legal errors if he is found guilty, I just wanted to point out to our American friends that the prosecution can also appeal the verdict if he is acquitted for the same reasons.

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms includes provisions such as section 11(h) prohibiting double jeopardy. However, often, this prohibition applies only after the trial is finally concluded. Canadian law allows the prosecution to appeal from an acquittal. If the acquittal is thrown out, the new trial is not considered to be double jeopardy because the first trial and its judgment would have been annulled. In rare circumstances, a court of appeal might also substitute a conviction for an acquittal. This is not considered to be double jeopardy, either – in this case, the appeal and subsequent conviction are deemed to be a continuation of the original trial.

For an appeal from an acquittal to be successful, the Supreme Court of Canada requires that the Crown show that an error in law was made during the trial and that the error contributed to the verdict.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_jeopardy"]Double jeopardy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[Flowercb]

Okay so at the bottom of the page police ask "IF YOU RECOGNIZE THIS VEHICLE PLEASE CONTACT"
I can't believe no one recognized it out of all those women that saw MR car that month. Surprising.

The car looked like it was green in the video snap shot. I remember we were all speculating to what type of car we thought it was at the time they released the three snap shots. The women probably could not tell it was his car from these snap shots. You would have had to know what you were looking for in order to recognize it. MOO

 

[nursebeeme]

morning peeps! I cannot believe there is no jury until wednesday... well scratch that.. I can believe it but am fighting my need to want to yell, "get on with it already"

I do realize the legal arguments are a necessary part of the trial (and one we are usually able to watch in the states).

 

[Thinkzerz]

So now that the defence have their turn this week, what does that consist of? Witnesses or what MR claims happened in more detail?

 

[~n/t~]

So now that the defence have their turn this week, what does that consist of? Witnesses or what MR claims happened in more detail?

Your guess is as good as any. I don't think MR is going to take the stand. No way.

 

[matou]

Rosie Dimanno's, poorly written, condescending article that you linked to here only talks about all the innuendo about Tara MacDonald, that has been filling the blogosphere's since the beginning of the case, including, likely, by the accused himself.

Surely you don't think Derstine is going to focus the blame on Victoria's mother? That is surely to backfire, and all chances of a not-guilty verdict will fly out the window.

JMO

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1142826--tori-stafford-murder-trial-mother-s-shortcomings

I notice that Rosie DiManno hasn't been writing about this case anymore. I wonder why? JMO

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Thank you! Was just about to post about this.
Also, a child is more likely to trust a female, but run away from a male. The problem with this "stranger danger" thing is that kids are taught about 'strange men', but rarely about women. Kids tend to be taught that women are safer than men, and if you're ever in trouble, find a woman. But many women can be just as dangerous as, or more dangerous than, men.



Also, with all the speculation that Tori really did know TLM and TLM and TM are lying, etc. Perhaps they aren't lying about that. It is possible that Tori had seen TLM out and about in the neighbuorhood, walking her dog, and assumed that because she has seen her around and she is a girl, she would be safe. Children, even the smartest kids, are naive.
Also, it is possible that Tori knew TLM from talking to her while walking the dog. Kids often believe that dogs are safe, and wish to approach dogs (which is dangerous in itself). Unless a kid has been taught never to approach strange dogs because they might bite, they are likely to trust the dog. And if Tori had talked to TLM about her dog in the past, TM may not have known, and TLM may not have known that Tori was TM's daughter.

My point is that Tori didn't necessarily have to know TLM to walk off with her, and TLM didn't necessarily have to know Tori through her mother to pick her. There are many different ways this could have happened, and it is my opinion that Tori really did not *know* TLM.



MOO.

Sorry to post when I'm so far behind, but I can say that this is true based on my own experience.

I live in a historic district in downtown Phoenix that has a very large Latino community. Because our weather is beautiful all year round kids are outside playing all year round. I've noticed that, compared to other neighborhoods, there are many more children playing outside and it is the norm for parents to be outside with their kids. But this is not always the case.

When my very personable, very lovable and very beautiful doberman Mimi Vonfunkerdink was alive many of these children would stop to see her. I walked her almost everyday because she loved it, and just to give you an idea of how many of the kids loved Mimi, one time when we were walking by the school for some reason the teacher was walking the kids in this long line outside the school, and a whole bunch of the kids yelled "La Mimi" which is Spanish (and french) for The Mimi. Mimi really was a very, very, very special dog.

Anyway, most of the parents called her La Mimi too because since they would commonly be outside with the kids, Mimi really did put a smile on people's faces, even adults. Whenever a child would come up to Mimi I would ask them if their mom or dad knew they were outside talking to a stranger. I think I would hurt some of the kids feelings, especially since they would see other kids whose parents I had been introduced to with Mimi, but they could not socialize with Mimi unless i had been introduced to mom and dad, but it was the rule. Not because i was stranger danger, but hopefully to point out to them how dangerous it could be, and i knew parents appriciated it.

It is unbelievable how many children don't even think twice about coming up to a stranger with a dog. To me, it is very, very disturbing. And I know that many of them do know about stranger danger.

I do think that Tori was taken because she was the first child walking alone that TLM saw. Especially since it was not her usual routine and TLM would have had no way of knowing that she would be out there.

I just wanted to point out how spot on you are when it comes to a situation like that. It is so very important that parents talk about stranger danger often to reinforce how important it is that kids protect themselves from EVERYONE, women and dogs included.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

morning peeps! I cannot believe there is no jury until wednesday... well scratch that.. I can believe it but am fighting my need to want to yell, "get on with it already"

I do realize the legal arguments are a necessary part of the trial (and one we are usually able to watch in the states).

I agree. Not only just because we want to see justice, but because I think the jury would just like to get back to their normal routine ASAP. They are sacrificing so much. Tori is so worth it though!

 

[Macright]

Often when Derstine has cross examined, he has pulled more testimony from witnesses that the Crown has not revealed.

This is a link to Derstine gaining evidence through testimony during his cross examination of TM.

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1142826--tori-stafford-murder-trial-mother-s-shortcomings

There are too many links for too many cross examinations to post them all, but we know Derstine's cross examination revealed TLM's letters, journal entries, choice of death rap music, assaults on her mother, and lengthy criminal record. The comments that TLM made to her godmother regarding microwaving the dog and not regretting the murder and wanting to do it again were all revealed by Derstine's cross examination.

The information can be found by looking at Derstine's cross examination of the witnesses............JMO..........

Thank you for the above link...had not read that article but remembered some of the info from three years ago...JMO I think Dirk is armed and it will be interesting to hear his side next week..still haven't heard anything that made me go OMG other than when TLM described what she had inflicted on TS..only can hope that after the damage of the first blow little Tori didn't feel the others...JMO

 

[Salem]

Just a reminder that there is no court until Wednesday. Use this thread through tomorrow and we will set up threads for Wed., Thurs., Fri.

Who thinks the Defense will start this week?

Salem

~snipped~

RaffertyLFP: Witness dismissed. Court adjourning. Legal matters on Tuesday. Jury dismissed until 10 a.m. Wednesday

Heeney tells the jury they will be off on Tuesday. Council will be having legal arguments. Back Wednesday at 10 am.

 

[Salem]

Thank you for the above link...had not read that article but remembered some of the info from three years ago...JMO I think Dirk is armed and it will be interesting to hear his side next week..still haven't heard anything that made me go OMG other than when TLM described what she had inflicted on TS..only can hope that after the damage of the first blow little Tori didn't feel the others...JMO

The sperm mixed with Tori's blood made me go OMG. Also Tori's blood in the gym bag. That poor baby. And on reflection, looking at how sophicated MR was with the ladies..... just can't believe he let a young, angry teenager manipulate him into keeping his mouth shut about the horror of it all......

It will be very interesting to hear the Defense and I'm looking forward to it - I really want to see how MR's behavior is going to be excused away

Salem

 

[Salem]

So now that the defence have their turn this week, what does that consist of? Witnesses or what MR claims happened in more detail?

Did the Crown rest? I'm thinking the Crown will use the remainder of this week for wrapup and the legal arguments tomorrow and Defense won't start until Monday?

Salem

 

[Oldsoul2]

morning peeps! I cannot believe there is no jury until wednesday... well scratch that.. I can believe it but am fighting my need to want to yell, "get on with it already"

I do realize the legal arguments are a necessary part of the trial (and one we are usually able to watch in the states).

Really questioning now whether the defense knew prior that this witness was going to testify to him being a pimp. I think I read that she was not pushed by the Crown to testify and did this willingly, maybe the delay until wednesday is because the defense is now probably trying to get the judge to instruct the jury to disregard that statement and if he can't he needs to come up with some defense against it.

 

[Macright]

The sperm mixed with Tori's blood made me go OMG. Also Tori's blood in the gym bag. That poor baby. And on reflection, looking at how sophicated MR was with the ladies..... just can't believe he let a young, angry teenager manipulate him into keeping his mouth shut about the horror of it all......

It will be very interesting to hear the Defense and I'm looking forward to it - I really want to see how MR's behavior is going to be excused away

Salem

JMO the blood didn't surprise me because I knew she had been murdered so I knew it was bound to be found somewhere whether inside or splashed on the car..I think the blood came from the first rounds of the beating she endured..I also can't imagine MR being a sophisticated catch...I see no qualities in him or even looks that I would go wow..JMO and I also don't think TLM manipulated him into keeping his mouth shut...I think he was running scared that he would be caught and tried to evade the LE and cover up his tracks and I think that TLM would have done the same if she had not been identified as the possible suspect on that video and picked up on another charge..I think they both would have tried to get away with this as long as possible.. I also think the only way TLM confessed and that was after a space of 6 weeks in custody was because LE by that time knew she was involved and broke her down...I don't give her any credit for confessing because she only did that because she knew the jig was up...JMO also because that car was used for other reasons namely sexual encounters etc. it didn't surprise me that sperm would be found but not necessarily from that day and from the trial so far that has not been proven..we can surmised that MR raped TS but there is no evidence other than the word of a self confessed murderer and with her track record I find her word hard to believe. I do believe she is the one who did the deed only because of what I have read about her past so I am not being choosy in what I believe from her tales to fit my beliefs.. I have stated and still believe that this was not a random kidnapping on the part of TLM and she had a purpose in mind when she did it...revenge for whatever reason..I will need a court of law and a jury to prove me wrong and that is what I am waiting for..I don't think MR should be found not guilty for all of the charges because he does fit into this but I want him to be found guilty for all the right reasons...the fact that he was there is enough to insure a jail sentence... JMO

Respectfully....

 

[snoofer]

i think MTR would look lovely in pink
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_sheriff_joe_arpaio.htm
JMO
Joe Arpaio, the tough-guy sheriff who created the tent city and long ago started making his prisoners wear pink, and eat bologna sandwiches, is not one bit sympathetic He said Wednesday that he told all of the inmates: "It's 120 degrees in Iraq and our soldiers are living in tents too, and they have to wear full battle gear, but they didn't commit any crimes, so shut your damned mouths!"

 

[Tahorn]

JMO the blood didn't surprise me because I knew she had been murdered so I knew it was bound to be found somewhere whether inside or splashed on the car..I think the blood came from the first rounds of the beating she endured..I also can't imagine MR being a sophisticated catch...I see no qualities in him or even looks that I would go wow..JMO and I also don't think TLM manipulated him into keeping his mouth shut...I think he was running scared that he would be caught and tried to evade the LE and cover up his tracks and I think that TLM would have done the same if she had not been identified as the possible suspect on that video and picked up on another charge..I think they both would have tried to get away with this as long as possible.. I also think the only way TLM confessed and that was after a space of 6 weeks in custody was because LE by that time knew she was involved and broke her down...I don't give her any credit for confessing because she only did that because she knew the jig was up...JMO also because that car was used for other reasons namely sexual encounters etc. it didn't surprise me that sperm would be found but not necessarily from that day and from the trial so far that has not been proven..we can surmised that MR raped TS but there is no evidence other than the word of a self confessed murderer and with her track record I find her word hard to believe. I do believe she is the one who did the deed only because of what I have read about her past so I am not being choosy in what I believe from her tales to fit my beliefs.. I have stated and still believe that this was not a random kidnapping on the part of TLM and she had a purpose in mind when she did it...revenge for whatever reason..I will need a court of law and a jury to prove me wrong and that is what I am waiting for..I don't think MR should be found not guilty for all of the charges because he does fit into this but I want him to be found guilty for all the right reasons...the fact that he was there is enough to insure a jail sentence... JMO

Respectfully....

Agreed, but for me TLM had been questioned from the day they picked her up on the breach of probation warrant. It wasn't until they interviewed MR that she spun her tale implicating MR as the sadistic mastermind. It makes me believe that MR description of her set her off ... And if you cross her she will seek revenge. I am not saying MR was not there I just believe that TLM was the mastermind and the killer of VS. I believe MR should be given a life sentence just for putting VS parents through hell BUT I also believe the public needs to be aware that girls like TLM are out there and our system the way it is now is not only failing them but others like VS.

I believe because of the letter about smashing someones head in is why she was set to the physiatrist in the first place. Wasn't missing that appointment way she had the warrant issued? I wonder if her warrant was issued before VS went missing? If so then our system needs to fix ...

 

[myzzy]

good afternoon,

someones post gave me another thought on the few minutes it took to kidnap Tori.

WAY OUT THERE so forgive me

Could it be possible ( other then TLM testimony that he dropped her off ) that he had never been to her house that afternoon waiting on her when she came home from the employment office?

 

[Kamille]

Did the Crown rest? I'm thinking the Crown will use the remainder of this week for wrapup and the legal arguments tomorrow and Defense won't start until Monday?

Salem

I believe the Crown still has one more chapter to go, wrapping up the video surveillence evidence. Don't imagine that will take too long, probably less than a day, and these the transitions are supposed to be seamless. Maybe we'll actually hear from the defense as early as Wednesday. If not, I do think we will be hearing from them before the end of the week. Barring any more illness or transportation delays.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

Agreed, but for me TLM had been questioned from the day they picked her up on the breach of probation warrant. It wasn't until they interviewed MR that she spun her tale implicating MR as the sadistic mastermind. It makes me believe that MR description of her set her off ... And if you cross her she will seek revenge. I am not saying MR was not there I just believe that TLM was the mastermind and the killer of VS. I believe MR should be given a life sentence just for putting VS parents through hell BUT I also believe the public needs to be aware that girls like TLM are out there and our system the way it is now is not only failing them but others like VS.

I believe because of the letter about smashing someones head in is why she was set to the physiatrist in the first place. Wasn't missing that appointment way she had the warrant issued? I wonder if her warrant was issued before VS went missing? If so then our system needs to fix ...

Of course she turned on him when she likely heard what he was all about from the interrogator. So did most every girl paraded into that courtroom, especially CS by telling the truth about him.

That was his downfall.

But to suggest that she decided on a life sentence for herself just to get revenge on him is preposterous. Believe me, if she had been let out of detention without confessing, which she would have been within the month, that's when she might have exacted her revenge on him if she is that hell bent on revenge.

To make up a story about him that she couldn't prove and then spend at least the next 25 years in prison while he went free because she lied wouldn't exactly work as a good revenge plan.

So she told them he was involved right from the beginning and led them to the evidence to prove it. Well whatever evidence was left after his massive coverup. And the Crown has proven it IMO.

MOO