Weekend Discussion thread 04/21-24/2012

[Tahorn]

The next deposit was Apr 22 for $200.

And sorry about not posting the link to the video (where the list of deposits was shown) along with the image in my earlier post. Here it is:

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/20/19660781.html

April 9th, 2009 3:59pm $300

 

[Snoopster]

One other person that I want to make sure I thank for several posts is BorgQueen. I didn't have a chance to thank her on yesterday's trial thread before it closed. I think her messages are insightful and from the perspective of 'until you walk in my shoes'.

Thank you for sharing, BorgQueen.

 

[Macright]

illegal activities presented by crown by MTR
a. ingested drugs
b. sold drugs-large quantities
c. received monies for escorting-does he have a business license??
d. income tax evasion?
e. receiving any govt benefits gst etc based on not working but he WAS in receipt of oodles of money - illegal IMO does it constitute fraud?
f. did he defraud some of these women by lying about marrying them??
g. taking a child without express parental permission into his car -criminal
h. taking a child without express parental permission into his car -civil damages
i. rape
j. murder

anything else that could be considered illegal as presented by crown?

JMO

a. has that been proven
b. has that been proven
c. was he escorting...I thought she was
d. yeah I agree but doubt if the gov. will do anything about that..can't get blood from a turnip
e. penalty should be he will have to pay it back..although I have never received a GST refund in my life I understood one can earn XX # of $$$ and still receive a GST refund...again doubt if penalty would be paid ..see turnip reason
f. that is not a crime....if so can you prove that..
g. since he was not a parent and not familiar with the rules etc. AND if TLM said she was babysitting Tori..well then all I can say is he didn't use common sense but then if anyone picked up a child from school with someone who said they were babysitting then I doubt he is the only one that this has ever happened to.
h. see above
i. we don't know that and it was not proven...hearsay...
j. murder did happen in this instance but someone else confessed to being the one who committed it and is now serving her time.

all of the above are JMO

 

[Snoopster]

April 9th, 2009 3:59pm $300

You're absolutely right, Tahorn. But I believe that I mentioned that one and said this was followed by no deposits for almost 2 weeks. I think that was what the poster was asking about...but I may be wrong. So thanks for that.

 

[crazyladi]

I would also add the lengthy list of females and their testimony, also shows that none of them expressed any concern that MR had devious sexual desires. The females were from different educational and career backgrounds, some had young children, the relationships varied from single conversations or meetings to fairly lengthy periods of time.

And as far as I know..........not one of them said anything about any sexual deviancy about MR.

The defense still has to present their side........

JMO

They werent asked about his sexual appetite or habits. The questions were direct as to the evidence about the back seat, when they dated and how long it lasted.

That being said a lot of little details are not being asked unless we are just not hearing it.

 

[snoofer]

Respectfully my point of view is such...... We didn't hear from any of the women that testified that MR was abusive or manipulative because they were not asked what their relationship was like and how it ended. I think if the crown tried that, the defence would have had some serious objections.

Also I don't think it's relevant whether CS was on welfare, she or her character are not on trial here. Yes she said they agreed she would start escorting to earn additional money but we don't know if she was happy to do so or was maybe somewhat coerced into it by MR. I also don't find it strange that MR had to ask her to deposit money, she was a mum of 4 I doubt that each time she earned money she would have the time to run immediately to the bank to deposit it in his account. Almost $17000 was deposited into his account, that's a lot of money so I don't doubt that most of the money she earned went to him regardless of whether it was for drugs or she thought she was helping him through school or not, I am sure she did not intend for it to be spent on shopping trips for other women and their children. She was in love with him, thought they would get married, she has no reason to lie.
Also she may be a tough women now but 3 years ago she could have been a totally different person, 23 yrs old with 4 boys, two being twins and by herself, she may have been lonely, had low self esteem an MR seemed like her night in shining armour. After finding out the man you loved, wanted to marry, was a father figure to your children has been arrested and charge with a crime like this must turn your world around and make you a stronger, more aware and assertive person.

As always moo

definately low self esteem if your knight in shining armour expected you to escort and give him money. I would suggest a decent guy would not want their gf doing that and most especially take the money for it. JMO Good lord; it must be tough out there for a single person to think MTR was a good catch. Where have all the good guys gone? JMO In all seriousness I can see it being tough out there as let's face it, if a gal meets a truly good man, she hangs on to her and vise versa. JMO

 

[Jezbel]

definately low self esteem if your knight in shining armour expected you to escort and give him money. I would suggest a decent guy would not want their gf doing that and most especially take the money for it. JMO Good lord; it must be tough out there for a single person to think MTR was a good catch. Where have all the good guys gone? JMO In all seriousness I can see it being tough out there as let's face it, if a gal meets a truly good man, she hangs on to her and vise versa. JMO

Nope I agree, I don't think any decent guy would either, but then I don't think MR is decent in any way either.

She probably thought he was a good guy as he was willing to take on 4 young children who were not his own. I read somewhere that her last son was born in May 2008, that would mean she would have been pregnant when they started dating....

Jmo

 

[Wondergirl]

Regarding frequency, timing and amounts of payments from CS to MTR, I tried to grab a screen shot from the LFP video to save for reference. I couldn't easily figure out how to post a larger, clearer version here (although it's pretty clear if you watch the video in full-screen mode and then just pause it).

What you will see though, for the few months leading up to Apr 9, is that the deposits occurred on average every 2-3 days. Sometimes a couple of days in row, and sometimes several days apart. Amounts were typically in the $200 - $500 range, although there were several at $100 (a couple even lower) and one as large as $1000.

The last deposit before Apr 8 was on Apr 4 for $100.

Apr 8 there were the 2 deposits,as reported, for $400 at 9:47 and $100 at 2:58. There was another deposit of $300 on Apr 9 at 3:59.

Then....nothing for almost 2 weeks. Strange.

BBM: It is strange.

It begs the questions, did she take herself out of commission, and, also did she have any idea about what happened to Tori? I would presume, by her selfless actions yesterday, that she did not know about Tori.

 

[girlfriday]

QUOTE: Another former girlfriend described Rafferty as having aggressive sexual interests and a secretive personality.

"He never had any money and I would always pay for things," said Jennifer Etsell, a single mom in Hanover who met Rafferty through an online dating service in 2006. "He started lying about things (and) he was always very secretive.

"I didn't meet any of his friends. He wouldn't talk about any of his past relationships."

His interest in what she called "rough sex" and bondage -- he became angry when rebuffed -- strained the relationship. She ended it after $2,000 disappeared from her bank account. END QUOTE

From this old article:
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/05/21/pf-9520751.html

 

[crazyladi]

QUOTE: Another former girlfriend described Rafferty as having aggressive sexual interests and a secretive personality.

"He never had any money and I would always pay for things," said Jennifer Etsell, a single mom in Hanover who met Rafferty through an online dating service in 2006. "He started lying about things (and) he was always very secretive.

"I didn't meet any of his friends. He wouldn't talk about any of his past relationships."

His interest in what she called "rough sex" and bondage -- he became angry when rebuffed -- strained the relationship. She ended it after $2,000 disappeared from her bank account. END QUOTE

From this old article:
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/05/21/pf-9520751.html

Thank you for posting this. The crown has not asked any of these women about his sexual appetite. I dont know why but there is obviously a reason.

This same girl testified recently and none of what she said came out and I think it should have as it plays an important role that I think that just like Bernardo he needed to take it to the next level because these women couldnt give him what he wanted.

 

[Snoopster]

BBM: It is strange.

It begs the questions, did she take herself out of commission, and, also did she have any idea about what happened to Tori? I would presume, by her selfless actions yesterday, that she did not know about Tori.

Oh, I forgot to add, I didn't see any other day, other than Apr 8, where there were two deposits in one day.

 

[Confusedashell]

Thank you for posting this. The crown has not asked any of these women about his sexual appetite. I dont know why but there is obviously a reason.

This same girl testified recently and none of what she said came out and I think it should have as it plays an important role that I think that just like Bernardo he needed to take it to the next level because these women couldnt give him what he wanted.

She was never asked about that. She was asked where she lived how they met, how many children she has and what way they took back and forth from Hanover to Guelph that is all. Nothing about his sexual behaviour nor how he acted around her child was ever brought up.

 

[otto]

$50 maybe ... $17K doubtful, I believe that it was for drugs. I believe she could not testify to the drugs because she has 4 children. Escorting is not illegal while drugs is.

If it was drugs, not escorting, the defence lawyers could destroy her testimony on cross. The prosecution would not likely take that risk, so it was probably escorting. She thought that she was investing in a relationship that had some promise.

 

[Hello_Kitty]

I would also add the lengthy list of females and their testimony, also shows that none of them expressed any concern that MR had devious sexual desires. The females were from different educational and career backgrounds, some had young children, the relationships varied from single conversations or meetings to fairly lengthy periods of time.

And as far as I know..........not one of them said anything about any sexual deviancy about MR.

The defense still has to present their side........

JMO

Well I don't remember either the crown or defence asking any of the witnesses about that, so I assume that's why they didn't say

 

[Hello_Kitty]

Regarding frequency, timing and amounts of payments from CS to MTR, I tried to grab a screen shot from the LFP video to save for reference. I couldn't easily figure out how to post a larger, clearer version here (although it's pretty clear if you watch the video in full-screen mode and then just pause it).

What you will see though, for the few months leading up to Apr 9, is that the deposits occurred on average every 2-3 days. Sometimes a couple of days in row, and sometimes several days apart. Amounts were typically in the $200 - $500 range, although there were several at $100 (a couple even lower) and one as large as $1000.

The last deposit before Apr 8 was on Apr 4 for $100.

Apr 8 there were the 2 deposits,as reported, for $400 at 9:47 and $100 at 2:58. There was another deposit of $300 on Apr 9 at 3:59.

Then....nothing for almost 2 weeks. Strange.

It's really a wonder the bank didn't catch on to all those deposits and look into it.

 

[otto]

Otto, I just want to thank you for sharing your legal knowledge with us. I find it very helpful!

You are welcome. I am not a lawyer, but I have a close relationship with a senior Queen's Counsel and A.C.C. Prosecutor, so I have picked up some understanding of criminal law over the years.

 

[~n/t~]

I think that Canadians are sometimes influenced by what is seen in US trials via talking heads like Nancy Grace. In North Carolina, for example, a person's character can be considered by the jury when deciding a verdict. In Florida, absolutely everything about the case can be released to the public well before a trial. Common law does not allow any information about an investigation to be released before trial and a persons prior bad acts cannot be used when determining whether a person is guilty of a specific bad act.

I think it is important that these rights are protected. I followed the North Carolina cases of Brad Cooper and Jason Young and was really surprised at how much court time was dedicated to smearing the character of the accused. Particularly in the case of Brad Cooper, two weeks of trial time were filled with testimony of the neighbours badmouthing the suspect. At the time, I thought it was a completely irrelevant waste of time, but in the long run, smearing the character of the suspect before presenting evidence of the crime worked in terms of tainting the suspects character and leaving him vulnerable to having all the evidence interpretted in a very negative way.

Oh that's right. I forgot I was born and raised in this wonderful country where criminals have all the rights and the victims have none.

This trial is just one example.

 

[otto]

Oh that's right. I forgot I was born and raised in this wonderful country where criminals have all the rights and the victims have none.

This trial is just one example.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that criminals have all the rights, but I do think that it's more common to give the benefit of the doubt in Canada and Western Europe.

 

[Macright]

If it was drugs, not escorting, the defence lawyers could destroy her testimony on cross. The prosecution would not likely take that risk, so it was probably escorting. She thought that she was investing in a relationship that had some promise.

I thought the original poster meant the $$$ were deposited into the bank for the purchase of drugs for resale...their second occupation... I think the witness knew enough about the risk of mentioning drugs and changed her story of why she was making the deposits....IMO that was their relationship...a business deal and nothing to do about investing in a relationship ie: marriage etc.. JMO

 

[otto]

I thought the original poster meant the $$$ were deposited into the bank for the purchase of drugs for resale...their second occupation... I think the witness knew enough about the risk of mentioning drugs and changed her story of why she was making the deposits....IMO that was their relationship...a business deal and nothing to do about investing in a relationship ie: marriage etc.. JMO

If their relationship was about buying and selling drugs, MF would inform his lawyer and the lawyer would discredit the witness. Has the witness been cross examined by the defence lawyer yet and, if so, did the lawyer ask her about drug dealing? If not, then the financial transfers are not related to drug dealing.