Weekend Discussion Thread 04/27-30/2012

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I believe TLM tesitfied that he only took them orally.

BA testified that before VS went missing she only saw him a couple of times a month, but after she saw him about a dozen. Seems to me he increased his drug use after. Especially after the undercover officers testified.

That's a lot of drugs.

That makes sense, the only thing though is that I think he had other drug contact and may have been getting scripts from others too. I thought TLM also testified that she would take MTR to get drugs from her friends. I don't think that BA was his only Dr. Feelgood so I don't really think we can use her as a gauge in determining how much MTR was using. And then remember the pill bottles they found at his mom's house?
 
actually I read most about TLM and her life BEFORE her trial..after she was picked up as a suspect...just how evil and demented she was I learned at this trial...so I am still wondering why we have not heard a great deal about MR's life and upbringing...as I said previously...it all seems to be rather hush hush...JMO

sorry the "much" I meant is the evil demented things we learned about TLM at this trial.
 
yes all the money for the expensive clothes, drugs, gas....she had to know it was illegal behavior; unless lordy knows maybe she thought he taught dancing every day.MOO

wonders what he told the neighbours about whether he was employed or not; and wonder what the mother told others about whether he worked or not. MOO

JME he wouldn't be the first adult child living at home with a parent/parents, and them being unaware of how they made money. And we don't know how long he was unemployed, and many adults return to the nest at times afaik. JMO I posted awhile ago I think about my fiance's roomie before we lived together, he would dress and leave for "work" every day. And after my fiance left he would go back home and start drinking. Reminds me of another recent case. JME
 
I wonder what her motivation was to change her story? I am unable to come up with any scenarios that benefitted her. JMO

JMO could be to have cred in jail, be seen as crazy and tough to deter physical attacks, or could be trying to not appear to be a "pigeon", also very bad in jail. If there was a sexual attack, and if it was by TLM, she'll never cop to that imo. Anyway as far as reasons, only she knows imo, and possibly her attorney. It was to her benefit in some way for sure JMO
 
Sizzle, that's a lot! They've given me Percacets before and they knock me over. Can't imagine taking that many! MTR and TLM really could have had a huge, huge habit. Especially TLM since she shot it IV, but then again we don't know that MTR wasn't shooting it.

PS... I love your avatar!

bbm, thanks, HaLeigh and her family are always in my thoughts and prayers.
 
...IMo this case has really baffled me ...I am sure we will never get some answers ...But I STILL question...HIGHLY why TLM changed her Plea to GULITY of killing Tori ...????

IMO It really breaks my heart that there was NOT more evidence to MR raping Tori...I wish there was NO DOUBTS LEFT AT ALL !...with more forensiac evidence !...I guess MR made sure to TRY to get rid of all.... IMO that is where some of this turned EXTREMELY DIRTY ...Imo I do not think they would have ever LET TORI GO alive ....IMO I feel strongly that both TLM & MR were out for their own ...BACKS ...as Tori could have identified both of them !...also serious wonder what MR mother thought about what has going on with her son....???no job and way too many expensive things and did she not realize he was addicted to Oxy ( bottles were left out )....as mentioned already above my others...I agree 100 percent...again robynhood >>>>

IMO I would love to be a fly on the wall in MR Jail ceel as I am sure MR. Destine is and has PAID many visits to MR about how they are going to deal with his defense ...OMG they did have 3 years and computers full of evidence to EXPLAIN ...?????....How can he ever think that MR will walk free...the thought makes me shake this weekend ....IMo ....OMG ...Now is it not Monday they start this cirus event????...robynhood ...Just can not get my head around the cards they will use for defense ...time shall tell ..IMO ..his colck is ticking FAST ...robynhood...your thoughts fellow SLeuthers....???

bbm,Tuesday
 
What I am trying to convey is that if you believe TLM implicated MR for revenge, she would never have admitted to the murder. LE could not determine who did it. Everytime I try to go down the defence's suggested theory, that is where I get stuck. JMO

bbm, JMO she didn't until long after she was sentenced. JMO
 
As a mother, I feel so sad for Tara. Despite her faults, she loved Tori so much. She carried her for 9 months, changed her, rocked her, comforted her, played with her. Then MR and TLM stole all that from her. TM should be having to deal with a precious, whirlwind of a pre-teen daughter right now. Instead, she is attending the trial of her darling daughter's alleged murder. That is who I feel sorry for.

JMO I feel sorry for Tori's beloved brother, both of her parents, her grandparents, and aunts and uncles, all of Tori's friends and extended family. I also feel for the families of the convicted and accused. However, I feel sorry for Tori most of all. JMO
 
What I am trying to convey is that if you believe TLM implicated MR for revenge, she would never have admitted to the murder. LE could not determine who did it. Everytime I try to go down the defence's suggested theory, that is where I get stuck. If convicted for the rape part; his gf list would suffer big time. JMO

Could it be or perhaps defense might suggest TLM changed her story to "take the fall" as she suggested she would to MTR but figured if she leaves in the rape part that would mess him up with other women, but she would still have sex with him as she was right along. Gets rid of the other women and MTR still has her and she gets him to herself. She said she told because she didn't want him doing that to other children. Yet, it didn't bother her to continue a romantic relationship with him afterwards as seen in the Genest video. JMO Maybe thought they could have CV in prison and he might get out as time served with the 2:1 for serving time in detention awaiting trial. And then when out he might continue visiting her as they had before. MOO

Sometimes a prisoner will get a 2 for 1 credit for time spent in detention awaiting trial because it is considered hard time and it takes so long to go to trial. MOO In the Don Jail some prisoners were give 3 to 1 credit for time spent in detention awaiting trial there. Not sure that would happen with such a serious crime; but not sure JMO It might not happen anymore but it used to for sure.
 
Could it be or perhaps defense might suggest TLM changed her story to "take the fall" as she suggested she would to MTR but figured if she leaves in the rape part that would mess him up with other women, but she would still have sex with him as she was right along. Gets rid of the other women and MTR still has her and she gets him to herself. She said she told because she didn't want him doing that to other children. Yet, it didn't bother her to continue a romantic relationship with him afterwards as seen in the Genest video. JMO Maybe thought they could have CV in prison and he might get out as time served with the 2:1 for serving time in detention awaiting trial. And then when out he might continue visiting her as they had before. MOO

Sometimes a prisoner will get a 2 for 1 credit for time spent in detention awaiting trial because it is considered hard time and it takes so long to go to trial. MOO In the Don Jail some prisoners were give 3 to 1 credit for time spent in detention awaiting trial there. Not sure that would happen with such a serious crime; but not sure JMO It might not happen anymore but it used to for sure.

bbm, jmo, doubt it. from wiki:

"In Canada, all inmates, with the exception of those on disciplinary restrictions or at risk for family violence, are permitted "private family visits" of up to 72 hours' duration once every two months. Eligible visitors, who may not themselves be prison inmates, are: spouse, or common-law partner of at least six months; children; parents; foster parents; siblings; grandparents; and "persons with whom, in the opinion of the institutional head, the inmate has a close familial bond". Food is provided by the institution but paid by the inmates and visitors, who are also responsible for cleaning the unit after the visit. During a visit, staff members have regular contact with the inmate and visitors"
 
I completely agree. She should have known that something was amiss. Not asking the difficult questions, or intervening to push him to get help and move forward with his life, would be the easy way out. Maybe I'm wrong and maybe his mom was working hard to help her son get on the right path. It's pretty difficult to influence the choices of a 28 year old. Letting him hit rock bottom on a street corner would have been better. I wonder if she always sensed that there was something off about him and thought that it was best to keep an eye on him under her roof.

she may have been manipulated or she may have known he wasn't "all there" and was at a loss what to do with him. JMO

and yes (highlighted in red) that could be possible as well. JMO

we don't know anything from the news about his mother; so I would like to give her the benefit of the doubt. There is a movie called "Beautiful Boy" that deals with a very similar situation and it shows the confusion of the parents, the guilt, the questioning of themselves and every small detail throughout the son's childhood. And in the end they still had no answers but they suffered immensely. They grieved too because they lost a son that day too but there would be no caring, mercy or understanding for them because their son was a murderer so they cried in hiding. We don't know what that relationship was like except for he lived at home at that age while being a criminal..but we don't know the "why". MOO

That in no way lessens the empathy I have for TS family as TS and her family are the most obvious victims and it was horrendous what has happened to TS and her parents and those that love her. And I have no use for the perpetrators of this crime. MOO

I would assume the parents of a murderer or rapist etc would go through similar stages of grief. Because that person is no longer the person they thought they were. That person would be gone to them similar to a death although not exactly like one. MOO That first stage may even be denial.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1533013/

Above link contains the trailer for "Beautiful Boy". Very thought provoking movie dealing with this subject. JMO
 
(RSBM)

I agree that there had to have been a lot of enabling going on, but wanted to correct a couple of things. MTR was technically not "still" living with his mom; he was living with her again. He had been on his own either off and on for years prior, or continuously, for many years before moving back in with her. Although our knowledge of several of those years are sketchy, we do know he lived in Toronto in his early twenties, with DM in Guelph, and again with a different girl in Oakville. He moved back in with his mother about a year and a bit before the crime.

We haven't had confirmation of the other jobs he claimed to have, but he did work for "Outdoor Services", the landscaping company, off and on from 2003 to 2006.

As for income, I almost laughed reading that. According to CS's testimony, he had more than $16,000 of it coming from her in less than six months. Regardless of how you classify it, I guess you still have to consider it income. And then there was the alleged drug dealing, although there has not really been testimony to verify that.

Certainly, not an admirable lifestyle for sure and one that I would have a lot of questions about if I were his mother. But, more than likely, he lied to her like he lied to everyone else. It seems he was pretty good at it.

This entire case has so many tragic elements with the most obvious being little Tori's fate, of course. But there are many victims here and, as a mother myself, I can't help but think that MTR's mom once carried him for nine months, fed him, changed his diapers, and rocked him in her arms as a baby. No matter what the jury decides, these are memories that will always be with her. Even on the unlikely chance that he is acquitted of all charges, the revelations about her son that have surfaced over the past few weeks should fill her with many questions, guilt, regret, and great sorrow. I pity her.

JMO

Rafferty isn't dead. I pity the mother of the victim. JMO
 
Could it be or perhaps defense might suggest TLM changed her story to "take the fall" as she suggested she would to MTR but figured if she leaves in the rape part that would mess him up with other women, but she would still have sex with him as she was right along. Gets rid of the other women and MTR still has her and she gets him to herself. She said she told because she didn't want him doing that to other children. Yet, it didn't bother her to continue a romantic relationship with him afterwards as seen in the Genest video. JMO Maybe thought they could have CV in prison and he might get out as time served with the 2:1 for serving time in detention awaiting trial. And then when out he might continue visiting her as they had before. MOO

Sometimes a prisoner will get a 2 for 1 credit for time spent in detention awaiting trial because it is considered hard time and it takes so long to go to trial. MOO In the Don Jail some prisoners were give 3 to 1 credit for time spent in detention awaiting trial there. Not sure that would happen with such a serious crime; but not sure JMO It might not happen anymore but it used to for sure.

re credits for time served ie dead time: http://www.parl.gc.ca/About/Parliam...s=C25&Mode=1&Parl=40&Ses=2&source=library_prb



"The bill amends the Criminal Code (the Code) to limit the credit a judge may allow for any time spent in pre-sentencing custody in order to reduce the punishment to be imposed at sentencing, commonly called “credit for time served.”(1) There are three scenarios:


■In general, a judge may allow a maximum credit of one day for each day spent in pre-sentencing custody (“custody” in the bill) (clause 3 of the bill, new section 719(3) of the Code). On 8 October 2009, the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs proposed to amend the bill to allow a maximum credit of one and one-half days for each day spent in pre-sentencing custody. However, the Senate defeated the amendment on 20 October 2009.
■However, if, and only if, the circumstances justify it, a judge may allow a maximum credit of one and one-half days for each day spent in pre-sentencing custody (clause 3 of the bill, new section 719(3.1) of the Code). On 8 October 2009, the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs proposed to amend the bill to allow a maximum credit of two days for each day spent in pre-sentencing custody. However, the Senate defeated the amendment on 20 October 2009.
■If the person’s criminal record or breach of conditions of release on bail was the reason for the pre-sentencing custody,(2) a judge may not allow more than one day’s credit for each day spent in pre-sentencing custody (clause 3 of the bill, new section 719(3.1) of the Code). On 8 October 2009, the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs proposed to amend the bill to allow a maximum credit of one and one-half days for each day spent in pre-sentencing custody. However, the Senate defeated the amendment on 20 October 2009."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2010/02/23/nicholson-truth-sentencing.html

"New law ends 2-for-1 credit on jail sentencesJustice Minister Rob Nicholson announced on Tuesday that the Truth in Sentencing Act has now come into effect. (Chris Wattie/Reuters) Federal legislation limiting the amount of credit prisoners can get for time served in custody before and during their trial has become law, Justice Minister Rob Nicholson announced on Tuesday.

"The two-for-one credit is no longer an option. This will bring more truth in sentencing and give Canadians confidence that justice is being served," Nicholson told reporters in Ottawa .

The Truth in Sentencing Act was actually granted royal assent on Oct. 21, 2009, but came into effect on Monday."

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_in_sentencing"]Truth in sentencing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
"In Canada, the Truth in Sentencing act, or Bill C-25[1] came into effect on Monday, February 22, 2010.[2] This bill amends s.719 of the Criminal Code of Canada, limiting the discretion of a sentencing judges to give credit to individuals who have spent time incarcerated prior to conviction. Prior to this bill being implemented, as discussed by Justice Arbour in R v. Wust,[3] credit for pre-sentencing custody was not determined by a 'mathematical formula' but many judges have frequently granted a two-for-one credit. This is justified by the quantitative and qualitative differences between pre-and post-sentencing incarceration. Most individuals who are incarcerated will not serve the full length of their sentence, and because time spent incarcerated pre-sentence does not count towards remission time, where a lengthy pre-sentence incarceration is credited equally to post-sentencing incarceration the convicted individual will serve a longer sentence compared to an individual given the same sentence without a lengthy period of pre-sentencing incarceration. Arbour also points out that pre-sentence incarceration is typically served in detention, in harsher circumstances than the sentence will ultimately call for and without access to educational, rehabilitative and vocational programs.

Bill C-25 creates three changes in the Criminal Code;[4] now under s.719(3), generally the maximum credit a judge can give 1:1. Under s.719(3.1) and 719(3.2) a judge can only give a credit of 1.5:1 "if the circumstances justify it" and under s.719(3.1) the sentencing judge cannot give greater than 1:1 credit where the reason for pre-sentencing incarceration is either that person's criminal record or where that individual has breached their bail conditions.

The constitutionality of this bill was challenged under s.7, s.13 and s.15 of The Charter in the Ontario Court of Justice by Marvin Johnson.[5] The court found that the amendment will survive Charter scrutiny provided the phrase if the circumstances justify it is interpreted in a manner that doesn't limit the granting of a 1.5:1 credit to such a high standard "that mandates a level of exceptionality that goes well beyond the ordinary experience of “dead time” or the penal disparities that typically flow from such pre-sentence custody". In this case, Johnson who was sentenced to 18 months for the sale of $20 of cocaine to an undercover officer, was given a 1.5:1 credit for the 12 months he had spent in pre-sentence custody and was released two days after his sentencing hearing to a one year period of probation."
 
Back in 2009 lots of people were unemployed and living with family ... our economy was in a recession. I had PHD's applying for housekeeping position because they found themselves out of work ... people did a lot of things to earn money.

MTR did not. MOO
 
Then why admit to the murder? I would think that would be the greater evil. I can't find a rational reason for her to do so unless it's the truth. All if it. JMO

I think that several people called in a tip that the woman in the white coat looked like TLM. I think the gig was up and she knew it. Even Russell Williams knew when to throw in the towel during a police interrogation ... and he was far more intelligent and accomplished than TLM.
 
Rafferty isn't dead. I pity the mother of the victim. JMO



both Mothers have my pity...both of their children are lost to them..JMO it is sad all the way around and I would never blame MR's mother...there is that saying "but for the grace of god"...JMO
 
both Mothers have my pity...both of their children are lost to them..JMO it is sad all the way around and I would never blame MR's mother...there is that saying "but for the grace of god"...JMO

Agreed, with the exception of CM
 
I think that several people called in a tip that the woman in the white coat looked like TLM. I think the gig was up and she knew it. Even Russell Williams knew when to throw in the towel during a police interrogation ... and he was far more intelligent and accomplished than TLM.

You gotta know when to hold'em; know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away; know when to run....

- performed by Kenny Rogers

TLM "ran out of aces". MOO
 
Has anyone seen a case where the defence doesn't call evidence?
 
I think that several people called in a tip that the woman in the white coat looked like TLM. I think the gig was up and she knew it. Even Russell Williams knew when to throw in the towel during a police interrogation ... and he was far more intelligent and accomplished than TLM.

RW is more intelligent but it still took LE over a month to get TLM to talk.
 
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