Weekend Discussion Thread 04/27-30/2012

[crazyladi]

I disagree. No one knows what kind of life Mtr had. I truly believe they both were. Jmo.

 

[crazyladi]

well her record that has been released in court and other sources led me to that conclusion...haven't heard anything like that about MR.other than taking $$$ from an escort for their arranged business deal....JMO I think we can assume that TLM was not teaching sunday school....JMO

Plus you don't need a record to be street smart

 

[kmclaren]

maybe at that time TS still thought that TLM was babysitting her and maybe he did speak with her..we don't know that he didn't...there is no audio from inside of the car....JMO

What makes you think Tori thought she was being babysat? Tori had no reason to be with a babysitter - her mom was at home waiting for her and she had friends coming over to watch a movie after school, which she was reportedly very excited about. She thought she was going to have a quick look at a puppy (IMO)...

 

[kmclaren]

I've been away all weekend and just reading the last page and Snoofer's synopsis.

Had an "omg" moment... what if Snoofer was Derstine testing out his synopsis here to see how we would pick it apart and then he could adjust it to something more believable.

sorry Snoofer :/

Wouldn't that be unethical? Maybe not illegal but don't lawyers have a code of ethics for their profession? I just can't see playing out scenarios and bantering back and forth on the internet while defending someone on trial for kidnapping, rape and 1st degree murder would be OK... Then again, I'm not a lawyer but I am in a profession that has a code of conduct where that type of behaviour would not be OK! JMO as usual...

eta - snoofer, i don't think you're derstine btw!!

 

[tmhco]

Whatever happened to the pea coat?

The pea coat was supposed to be a crucial piece of evidence, that many thought would support TLM's testimony that VS was hidden in the back seat area covered by it.

The pea coat was recovered. It was examined. It did have lots of DNA on it.

But it didn't have any DNA from VS on it.

How could that be?

No hair fibers......no saliva........no mucus...........nothing from VS.

Forensics could tell if the coat had been cleaned.......but mentioned nothing about the presence of cleaning fluids.

Was TLM lying or telling the truth?

JMO....................

It was draped over the child. What would you expect to find 3 months later. JMO

 

[otto]

In Canada, intent is a crucial element in all criminal charges.

For the jury to find MR guilty of kidnapping, the Crown must first prove that all of the elements of the charge were fulfilled.

Was it MR's intent to kidnap VS.....or was he unknowingly involved?

As to cleaning up the crime scene, MR has not been charged with obstruction of justice or any of a number of charges he could be charged with for this offense.

I would be confident that if found not guilty on the current charges, the Crown would lay charges against him for those offenses.

JMO.............

I'm not seeing a problem with intent. What reasonable explanation is there for a 28 year old man to take an 8 year old abducted girl to the middle of no where and then not tell anyone what he did? Would anyone believe that he thought this is how children are babysat?

 

[tmhco]

respectfully..do you know for a fact that he did nothing...the kicking and the stomping would have eventually led to her death...she was only a mite of a little girl and I would imagine TLM used a lot of force when she stomped on that little girl crushing her ribs and damage to her liver and god knows what other organs of her body....I wish people would not state things as fact but use the symbol IMO...this is how things are taken out of context and people run with it as actual fact...and by the way what has his age got to do with anything...yes he was 28 and the other thing was ten years younger but she was a lot more street wise than he was..he could have been the same age and the results would have been the same... another thing...people state for a fact that because there was a male involved and the child was found without clothing that therefore there had to be a rape...huh...yes if MR was the only one there besides TS..then yes I could see how people could think that..stands to reason BUT in this case we had a person like TLM also there and I won't go into detail about her because we all know just what kind of an evil despicable person she is...JMO

And why do you believe she was stomped and kicked by TLM?

 

[swedie]

unrelated i guess in that scenario lol MOO, except that he was in addition to a dupe he was a drug dealer and receiver of escort money. How is that. MOO

What does the law say if this scenario is presented Otto.

Hey Snoof you're on a roll today *thumbs up*

We know Tori was not abducted over a drug debt because:

a) There was no call made to TM asking for the drug debt to be paid or ransom or she would never see her child again
b) Tori died with hours of being abducted
c) TM stated it was JG who had the minor drug debt and not herself
d) Tori was abducted for sexual purposes for MR as evidence fits
e) LE have never alluded to a drug debt this is just Derstine's spun story I believe he is going to use and IMHO it's laughable now knowing what we know through all the testimonies
f) seems MR was the one who was buying and selling drugs, showing up at TLM's house in order for her to get him drugs from associates. If CM was a supplier, I'm sure the Crown would have brought that forward as to who else MR was buying drugs from
g) TLM was falling in love with a dupe and would do anything for a little bit of love such as abducting a child for his wacked desires
h) TLM never said anything on the stand about a drug debt
i) TLM admitted Tori was abducted for MR on a dare

And the list goes on and on. Phew drug debt...go ahead Derstine spin it. I'm sure the jurors won't buy it. I see this case closing in fast and hard on MR. I bet the Crown will chew Derstine's spun story to shreds. MOO

Just curious to those who believe MR is being wrongly accused or duped or innocent. What's your take going to be should the jury find him guilty? Will you think he got an unfair trial or will you then believe the verdict? We are at a crossroad right now. I believe the only thing left is the closing arguments. As I've stated before, IMO I don't believe Derstine will call witnesses and I do not see MR taking the stand in his own defense. So in reality there could be no more evidence to come, just an argument coming from each side. Remember whatever Derstine says, more than likely will likely not be backed up by evidence, whereas the Crown has presented lots of evidence and TLM's testimony to back that evidence.

If he has the truth, it should be so easy for Derstine to prove MR's innocence. Derstine has already admitted that MR was there through the abduction and helped cover up the murder, therefore he will be found guilty of those two charges. The sexual assault IMHO is proven with the blood and sperm evidence, Tori naked from the waist down. It doesn't get any clearer then that. The rest of circumstantial evidence is a cherry on top. The clock is ticking. MOO

 

[Macright]

s

And why do you believe she was stomped and kicked by TLM?

Because I believe it was TLM who did the killing..JMO she confessed to the killing so I believe it was TLM and her alone who did the stomping and kicking and also swung the hammer...JMO

http://canindia.com/2012/04/tori-stafford-jury-to-hear-about-evidence-from-raffertys-home/ I could ask you the same question...who do you think did the deed...

 

[Sillybilly]

It appears MR is wearing his pea coat in the video at the bank machine, but it is very odd that blonde hairs were removed from the coat for examination, but were not TS's. I think the hairs were on the coat, not positive on that. Maybe TLM was mistaken about what covered TS in the back of the car; it could have been something else. There was certainly enough back there to use something else. MOO

Given he was wearing the coat earlier but not while driving when Tori was with them, then IMO it is quite plausible that it was in the car, and covering Tori as claimed by TLM.

 

[swedie]

Plus you don't need a record to be street smart

And if MR had a juvie record, it would not be admissible in court. Depending on other records, he may have asked for a pardon and granted one. TLM seems to be more "in your face" while MR seems to be more secretive and cagey. I would think that because MR didn't share information about his life with others, it was because it was not good, full of troubles. Look at how many women he duped and none seemed the wiser he was fooling around not only with one, but many at the same time. MOO

 

[swedie]

respectfully..do you know for a fact that he did nothing...the kicking and the stomping would have eventually led to her death...she was only a mite of a little girl and I would imagine TLM used a lot of force when she stomped on that little girl crushing her ribs and damage to her liver and god knows what other organs of her body....I wish people would not state things as fact but use the symbol IMO...this is how things are taken out of context and people run with it as actual fact...and by the way what has his age got to do with anything...yes he was 28 and the other thing was ten years younger but she was a lot more street wise than he was..he could have been the same age and the results would have been the same... another thing...people state for a fact that because there was a male involved and the child was found without clothing that therefore there had to be a rape...huh...yes if MR was the only one there besides TS..then yes I could see how people could think that..stands to reason BUT in this case we had a person like TLM also there and I won't go into detail about her because we all know just what kind of an evil despicable person she is...JMO

TLM admitted to kicking Tori but MR IMHO did much worse by sexually abusing Tori and what more than likely transpired during the sexual assault. We do not know what he did to her after he was done sexually assaulting her. I have said before I fear he probably punched her because her lack of cooperation was getting the better of him. If Tori was giving him a hard time and he was not having the sick thrill or fun his warped mind had anticipated, MR could have done numerous harmful things to Tori before throwing her out of his car, to the ground. As we know TLM was not present while MR was raping Tori. She was off taking in her surroundings and being on the lookout for MR. One would think something besides sexual assault happened in the back seat of his car in order for Tori to be lying on the ground moaning. Otherwise I would think Tori may very well have gotten up and ran to TLM for protection. At at least got to a sitting position or standing. But she wasn't, she was lying on the ground already wounded. MOO

In the eight weeks of Rafferty’s trial, the jury has heard from 61 witnesses, seen hundreds of photos, and watched a lot of surveillance video. Fifteen of those witnesses were women Rafferty dated in the spring of 2009.

All to prove McClintic’s story.

The video corroborated McClintic’s testimony about events of that day.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/a...ial-how-the-crown-went-after-michael-rafferty

 

[swedie]

A man whose lawyer has suggested he was nothing more than a horrified witness to the murder of Victoria Stafford at the hands of his girlfriend is seen on video with the woman a month later flexing his muscles for her and drawing her in for a long embrace.

But McClintic's arrest and detention apparently did not deter Rafferty from trying to keep in near-constant communication with her, records show.

Over the next month about 30 calls were exchanged between Rafferty's BlackBerry and the Genest Detention Centre, records show.

Rafferty visited McClintic there twice — on May 8 and 12 — and surveillance video with no audio played in court Wednesday shows the two laughing and joking around, with Rafferty prancing around as if modelling his clothes, flexing his biceps for her and at times reaching across the table to stroke her hair or brush it out of her face.

When he arrives and when he leaves, Rafferty and McClintic embrace for intimate, lingering hugs.

McClintic has testified that when they were leaving Woodstock that day, Rafferty took the battery out of his phone and put it back in once they arrived in Guelph, where he bought the Percocets.

The next gap in Rafferty's phone use came between 5:05 and 7:46 p.m. According to McClintic's testimony, Tori was raped and killed around that time, as it was beginning to get dark.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/04/25/michael-rafferty-hug-video-surveillance_n_1451224.html

 

[swedie]

Yet through a timeline of phone calls and showing of Genest surveillance video, the Crown painted a picture Wednesday of Rafferty keen on keeping in touch with McClintic and showing no signs of being horrified with her behaviour.

The two contacted each other at least 97 times through cellphone calls or texts between April 9 and May 19, the day McClintic and Rafferty were arrested. He visited her once at Woodstock courthouse when she had a hearing on an unrelated charge and visited her twice in Genest while she was in custody on that charge.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/25/19680036.html

 

[snoofer]

I really wonder if the defense is going to try and gain sympathy from the jurors as part of their defense tactic. I say this because Derstine hasn't denied he was there but making him a "victim" to this crime. Since alot of his dirty laundry has come out in regards to his lifestyle, the only way I can foresee the jury buying (which I think they won't regardless) this victimhood is by the defense trying to portray little boy blue, how unfortunate his life has been for him etc....

except that he appeared to be "living the life of Riley". No work, living off girlfriends and mother. Zipping here, zipping there. Lot of time at the gym, and shopping for the highest fashions, a BB to coordinate his criminal life and keep track of his social calendar. Popping pills, selling drugs, living a dozen lives with other women. Oh yes, he seemed very happy with his arrangements. No responsibility, unlimited sex, saps willing to believe all his lies, money out the wazooka. Someone to wash and cook for him, better standard at mom's (the only working <modsnip>)than say he had to live like most non working people in a place like TLM lived.

Defense will have to knit a whopper to outdo TLM's sad story and make a jury feel he is a victim. Because his lifestyle did not support a victim's story. MOO :O)

 

[snoofer]

I've been away all weekend and just reading the last page and Snoofer's synopsis.

Had an "omg" moment... what if Snoofer was Derstine testing out his synopsis here to see how we would pick it apart and then he could adjust it to something more believable.

sorry Snoofer :/

haha, my grade 12 law class has paid off! MOO AND Snoofer would ensure that Derstine pulled his own luggage with his own things in it! :O) Defo not Derstine!

Defense would be worse off than I thought if they had me on the team! MOO Maybe you haven't seen my other posts prior to the synopsis. ;O) JMO

P.S. Anything I know about law is from high school .....and Jack Bauer!

"Why don't you go hide in the shelter with the other children." - Jack Bauer / Who does that remind you of.... MOO

 

[tmhco]

s


Because I believe it was TLM who did the killing..JMO she confessed to the killing so I believe it was TLM and her alone who did the stomping and kicking and also swung the hammer...JMO

http://canindia.com/2012/04/tori-stafford-jury-to-hear-about-evidence-from-raffertys-home/ I could ask you the same question...who do you think did the deed...

I honestly don't know. The video of her first confession is so raw with emotion, the genuine emotion you would expect. Her descriptions were accurate, she described hearing things and seeing things. I don't think we will ever know the truth.

I am just surprised at how sure you are that she did. I don't understand how you can believe her testimony yet require much more evidence when it comes to MR. JMO

 

[crazyladi]

s


Because I believe it was TLM who did the killing..JMO she confessed to the killing so I believe it was TLM and her alone who did the stomping and kicking and also swung the hammer...JMO

http://canindia.com/2012/04/tori-stafford-jury-to-hear-about-evidence-from-raffertys-home/ I could ask you the same question...who do you think did the deed...

So you dont believe her when she said he raped her but you believe her story that she killed her? I dont get it. How do you know she is telling the truth? Why believe that part and not the rape? The evidence showed that they couldnt determine who killed Tori, so how do you know 100% that it was her, just because she said so?

IMO you either believe her whole confession or you believe none of it. How can you pick and chose what to believe?

You also believe that MTR thought he was babysitting, I dont understand how so. If he didnt have a back seat then why have a child in the car? Why hide the child?

To me some <modsnip> are picking and choosing to believe some of the crowns evidence that leans towards TLM doing everything but believe none of the evidence that shows MTR raped her, abducted her etc.

Boggles my mind.

Anyways this is all JMO

 

[LilyMacBloom]

One more sleep!

 

[Wondergirl]

Great article, must read.

Edward Greenspan pipes in.



Rafferty's lawyers face tough call

Will Tori Stafford's accused killer testify on his own behalf?

CBC News

Posted: Apr 30, 2012 6:02 AM ET

One concern in not having an accused testify is that, for some, it makes the accused appear guilty, Greenspan says.

Can lead to 'worst-case scenario'

Leo Adler, a criminal defence lawyer with 37 years of experience, says most juries want to hear the accused say they "didn't do it."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/04/27/accused-testifying-own-defence.html